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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. Sorry Willis for tacking so long to get back to you on this. I hat to be the one to tell you this but this is NOT the third definition of death. Pestilence and ruin lead to "physical death" One dies a physical death from a contagious disease.

    And the death that Pharaoh mentioned was because of his sins. "Then Pharaon called for Moses and Aaron in haste, and said, "I have (sinned against the Lord your God and against you). "Now therefore, please forgive my "sin" olny this once, and entreat the Lord your God. that He may take away from me this death only.

    One of the easiest thing is letting the Bible speak for itself. Would you like to try again for the third definition of death?
     
  2. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    hiya parousia70 :D



    Genesis 8:21
    And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

    he doesnt...but he does destroy all evil.

    Matthew 24
    For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

    Genesis 8:22
    While the earth remains , seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease."


    Revelation 21:1
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away , and the sea was no more.

    Revelation 21:22-23
    And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb.


    all humanity is not destroyed. just big part of it...and this is done not by any mortal intermediary but by Christ Himself :)

    Isaiah 63:1-6
    Who is this that comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he that is glorious in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, announcing vindication, mighty to save." Why is thy apparel red, and thy garments like his that treads in the wine press? "I have trodden the wine press alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood is sprinkled upon my garments, and I have stained all my raiment. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption has come. I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me victory, and my wrath upheld me. I trod down the peoples in my anger, I made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    You seem to me to be saying that you agree that Zephaniah 1:1-7 did indeed take place at least once, at about the time of Zephaniah. Do I understand you correctly? Here it is again for reference:

    Zeph 1:1-5
    I will utterly sweep away everything off of the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also swear by Malcam


    Do you agree that Zephaniah 1:1-5 did indeed take place at least once in history?


    But you ARE falling into contradictions. You said that AD70 was "A" Day of the Lord. You then said it was not "THE" Day of the Lord. I have proven that the scriptures make no such distinction and that Zephaniah 1:4-7 and Isaiah 13:6-19 were indeed "THE" Day of Yahweh events, both taking place in roughly the same time period (500s B.C.). So if AD 70 was "THE" Day of the Lord and was Israel's greatest Day of the Lord in its history, then why do you resist the preterist truth that AD 70 was THE "Day of the Lord/Christ" which the AD30-70 Church was explicitly looking for just mere decades before it happened? (see: 1 Cor 1:8; 1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14; 1 Thess 5:23; 1 Thess 5:2; Phil 1:6, 1:10; 2 Thess 2:2).

    Amos 3:7 declares, "Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Was AD 70, which was the greatest Day of the Lord in Israel's history, some insignificant event that the apostles had little care for? They were Israelites! It was their covenanted Nation and people and history. Jesus, John the Baptist, and ALL the apostles and prophets were raised up warning the Nation about its greatest disaster that took place within their generation (Matt 23:36; Matt 24:33-34; Luke 21:20-23). They were raised up for that very purpose just like Yahweh raised up His servants the prophets at the times of his FORMER judgments. They were ONLY concerned about this Day of the Lord that lay within four decades of the unlawful crucifixion of God at the hands of the rulers of Israel and their wicked, treacherous followers who proceded to kill the apostles Jesus sent to them in Matthew 23:32-38 and Matthew 10:16-23.


    Can you produce a Yahweh that "came down to Egypt on a cloud" in Isaiah 19:1-2? Yet the prophets said it happened and I bet you believe them. Can you produce a Yahweh that came down to destroy the remaining priests of Baal in Zephaniah's generation and wiped out all life from the earth as stated in chapter 1 of his prophecy? The prophets said it happened and I bet you believe them. Can you produce a Yahweh who came down with clouds and angels to shoot arrows at King Saul and He shook the very foundations of heaven and earth to remove the kingdom in 2 Samuel 22:8-16? The prophets said it happened and I bet you believe them. THEREFORE why can you not accept that Jesus Christ, who clearly prophesied concerning the fall of the Nation a mere four decades before it happened, WAS FULLY PRESENT IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER (Matt 16:27) at Israel's greatest Day of the Lord in its history???

    Jesus claimed he was ascending to Heaven to be returned to that same glory of the Father he had before the world existed!(John 17:5) You post over and over again that Jesus Christ returned as an invisible SPIRIT in AD 30 to give tongues to a few believers on the feast day. But you cannot agree with the preterist claims that Jesus came "in the glory of Yahweh" at AD 70 to deliver Israel's most devastating desolation since the world began, wiping out perhaps as many as 2 million Israelites between AD 66-70 and removing the Temple and Covenant they had for 1500 years??? This is unacceptable.

    You are a living contradiction here, and I want some answers. Jesus urgently promised his apostles to their faces that THEY would see those disasters and be killed as well (Matt 24:9) -- Jesus was not mincing words at such a time as Israel's greatest desolation and the chaos his servants would have to live through:

    Matthew 24:9, 33-34
    Then they will deliver YOU to tribulation, and will kill YOU, and YOU will be hated by all nations because of My name...So, YOU too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say TO YOU, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
     
  4. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0

    i agree, which re-enforces my position that 70ad was not the world judgment, but a local one. and when this is spoken of we are reminded that there will come a day when the world is judged, just as nations are.

    you see GW, there is not only a resurrection of the good, but a resurrection of the evil too, and there is coming a day when it will ALL be over with.....Harvest time.

    John 5:28-29
    Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth , those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment .

    please notice where all the dead come from, what do you find in "tombs"? if you said "dead bodies" you win a jellybean! ;) now onto harvest day.

    Matthew 13:24-30
    Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the householder came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?'
    He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he said, 'No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"
     
  5. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    did you know Matthew 24:9, 33-34 still applies today?

    Christians are martyred every day. this has not changed
     
  6. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    Genesis 1:22-23
    Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever "-- therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

    the banishment from Eden assured man's mortality. an interesting note is that in New Jerusalem, we will have access to this tree Adam lost.

    Revelation 22:14
    Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
     
  7. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    :clap: :clap: :clap:
     
  8. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
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    exactly what is the difference between me saying a local judgment is "a day of the lord"(local event) but not "THE day of the LORD"(worldwide event as per the flood) when you essentially do the same thing calling them "THE Day of Yahweh events "?


    more semantic games from GW...
     
  9. Hishandmaiden

    Hishandmaiden The Humble Servant Supporter

    +168
    Christian
    Private
    I take on a futurist views of the bible, but I tolerate all other views.
    We are all in Christ. We should all unite.
     
  10. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Messenger,

    Some people believe the flood wasn't actually global. :)

    -Jason
     
  11. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    G'day Messenger,

    It's also interesting to note that the New Jerusalem is indeed the New Covenant (Heb 12:22-23 Gal 4:21-31) [entered by faith in Christ] and the Tree of Life is none other than Christ Himself. And to be a partaker of Christ is to pass from Death to Life; hence Jesus' words: "he who believes in me though he die, yet shall he live" and again "he who believes in me shall never die" -these are current present realities because Christ initiated them in His ministry and ratified at the Cross and consequently consumated in His Parousia around 70AD.

    davo
     
  12. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    p70

    you make me laugh out loud. Really you do. Let me ask you a question. Is God stupid that he can't tell the difference between one nation and the entire world, or is he such a liar that when he says 'mountain' we must adjust to 'molehill', and when he says 'earth' we adjust to 'city'? These are the only two options I can think of when you present your views. If there is a third option I would certainly love to hear it.
     
  13. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    What are you looking for mani, the words 'physical death'? 'Sin'? 'Entered in'? Are you saying that Adam didn't sin, or that returning to dust wasn't physical death, or that the death wasn't the result of Adam's sin?

    I'm not surprised that you don't understand how death is used to describe pestilence and ruin and not necessarily the death of the mortal body. Note that pharoah did not die as a result of the plague.
     
  14. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    Hello Hoonbaba,
    i am not surprised in the slightest. :)
     
  15. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0

    Shalom davo
    i really do not think new jerusalem itself is the New covenant, as it was ratified at the cross, otherwise Paul would not be so vehement that "we are "discharged" "dead to" and "not under" law...Christ said plainly his "blood" IS the new covenant...all pre 70ad. the spiritual kingdom came in working and power during the first coming of Christ.
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    This thread was not intended to be an attack against those who hold to the Preterist view. It is souly for the newcomers, to give them a heads-up of what they can expect. My first dealings with a preterist was a shocker, and I really took offense to what he said, and I had no idea this person, who was basicly calling me a liar, or a dreamer, believed that all prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century. I didn't even know what a preterist was. But I have observed very closely, that preterists appear to be dividing the brethren, loving to argue, and stirring up confusion. It also seems that we have lost some of our most dedicated posters. It is my opinion that it would be a good idea for new posters to know that they could find themselves in the middle of an arguement in a heart beat. I get tired of it often myself. I will post something, and it will get intercepted by someone that doesn't have a clue. We never can settle the issue, or agree. It just goes on and on, but it is nothing but DIVISION, and quarelling. Just because you preterists don't like to exercise faith and hope, doesn't mean that we can't have faith and hope. What are you gaining from this?? Don't answer that, this thread is for newcomers only.
     
  17. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Thunder:

    ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh....there's that judgmental stripe again! I thought you talked to your barber about getting rid of it!


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  18. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Well rollin', I will take the liberty of responding to your misguided assumptions about those of us fellow participants who hold a differing view to yourself, that we are lacking in faith and hope. Give others credit i.e., "newcomers" and do not assume them to be ignorant or insecure -that is being uncharitable and unchristian, and only reflects upon you.

    davo
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,527
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Well, it is. and as long as you continue the attack, I will continue the defense.

    Well, I can't help it if you took offence, for you alone are resopnsible for what you find offensive. No one can tell you what you should find offensive and what you shouldn't. You alone make the choice, you alone should own up to it. No one called you a Liar, or a dreamer. If you believe anyone did, please produce a quote to support such an acusation.
    Thunder, let me reassure you:
    Preterists do NOT believe ALL PROPHESY was fulfilled in the firts century. That is simply untrue. Please stop promoting that fallacy.


    Appearances can be deceiving Thunder. My experience as a preterist is that the view unites and does not divide. Preterists do not hold that adhering to the propre eschaton is criteria for salvation. I think you confuse argument with healthy, spirited debate, which is profitable for all invloved. When I first discovered preterism, it didn't cause confusion for me, it cleared up the inherant confusion I found in the futurist view, in fact I was so confused by the inconsistancies and contradictions I found in futurism that at one point, I left the faith alltogether. It was the preterist view of the Bible that brought me back to Christ!!! Praise God!!!

    Are you a newcommer? oh, you must be the exception to your own rule here, OK fair enough.

    Thunder, If you post a question about preterism, I am bound to answer. If you do not wish to discuss it further, don't. You have the choice to ignore us, stop asking questions, and/or stop resopnding to preterist posts however I have a hunch that you really don't want to do that since you keep expressing your opinion on the matter. Don't get me wrong, I want you to engage us like you are, I want you to challenge my views, It helps strengthen my faith, which brings me finally to your groundless acusation that preterists have no hope or faith. poppycock! you have no grounds for that accusation. The faith I have knows no bounds, and I have the same hope as Abraham. The hope of my inheretance in the better country of heaven, as I sojurn as a stranger and pilgrim on this earth.

    Your Brother in Christ, now and always,
    P70
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Did you just agree with my statment that Luke 21:20-23 and Matthew 24:15-20 pertained to AD 70? Just to clarify: my claim is that those people indeed SAFELY escaped the tribulation simply by leaving Jerusalem and Judaea as Christ told them to. Do you agree that this happened at AD70?


    The O.T. dead, both just and unjust, were raised at AD 70 out of Hades. They were taken before Jesus and sent to either Heaven or to Hell. They did not "sleep through the Advent of Christ" and miss it entirely. They were raised from the dead by it once the Law of Moses was removed from being a living constitution in Israel (1 Cor 15:55-56). At just the right time, Jesus came to redeem those that were "under the Law" of Moses that they might become adopted sons of God (Gal 4:2-9). That same Galatians passage (4:2-9) shows that they were not yet out from under the Law but were coming back under it (or never fully escaping it to begin with)!


    This is parallel to John the baptist's teaching. John used the wheat and the chaff metaphor in Matt 3:7-12 during his ministry to Israel telling them to repent or die. He said, "the axe is already laid to the root of the trees...", thereby showing his original audience that the Nation's doom was at hand. He was ministering to Israel in exaclty the same way the prophets had done so at the time of the impending Babylonian captivity, urging them to repent or face Jehovah's destruction. We also know that this judgment was reserved for the "end of some AGE" (Matt 13:40, 49), which contextually meant the end of the Old Testament Age, the age in which they were living when they discussed these things.

    There is no end to the New Covenant Age, according to scripture.
     
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