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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    *** MOD HAT ON ***


    Just a friendly reminder:

    Rule No. 7 - No Public Disagreements with Staff

    You will only disagree with the decisions of the Administrators or Moderators in private, either by email or private messaging, and never in a public forum. All decisions to edit, move or delete a post or thread are based on this set of rules listed here.

    John


    *** MOD HAT OFF ***
     
  2. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day aChristian, you asked the following:

    As you would know, John being a Hebrew was steeped in the rich symbolism of the Old Testament’s language. "1000" or 10 cubed, 10x10x10 carries the meaning of God's ordered completeness, everything ultimately being His and in his reins –"He owns the cattle on a thousand hills," He orders things to the thousandth generation etc. It is to miss the point to look for who owns the 1001st cattle –of course God owns and orders all.

    The 1000 years in light of this speaks to the reign of Christ –specifically the generational span of 40 years [approx AD30-70]. Now we know Scripture is clear that Christ reign in actuality never ends, however John is showing us Christ’s triumphal reign and victory over Sin/Death and Satan in the so-called millennial age. In keeping with Christ's attitude of subjugation to the Father when He Comes in judgmental victory over His foes –hands the Kingdom over to the Father so He [The Father] "fills all in all" as per 1Cor 15:24,28.
    note: verses 25-26 recapitulate the reign and victory of that accomplished prior to verse 24. The "For He must reign" from Paul's pen is not future, but is in the "present tense" –in the "this generation" time frame.

    The Gospel of Christ –our gospel, has "no limited tenure" "no short-self-life" "no use-by-date" that futurism places upon it. According Rev 14:6 our gospel is ETERNAL, as in Eph 3:21 KJV "world without end." What the future holds and how that works out only God fully knows –He has however given US, Christ’s Body in the earth, the mandate to be His emissaries of blessing and godly change.

    Paul said "there is about to be [gk mello] a [gk singular] resurrection of the dead, BOTH [a one time event together] the just and the unjust" Act 24:15. The parables reflect this resurrection: either to everlasting Life or everlasting Damnation. cf Jn 5:28-29.

    Christ is continually intervening in the affairs of His world –through His Body the Church. Christ's Coming really is all about God restoring the fractured relationship between Him and a lost humanity. Ultimately ALL the Law, Prophets and Psalms [Lk 24:44] speak to God’s "eschton" in history with regards to mans redemption. Christ brought in "God’s Age" if you will, of salvation [Gal 4:4, Eph 1:10]. This being the case, Christ's 1st and 2nd Comings really are the book-ends of the ONE last days event of God into history [with regards to man’s deliverance-redemption-salvation]. The OT prophets focus was the "outworking" of this. "Fulfilled Prophecy" does NOT detract from the saving work of the Cross, it high-lights it. The Cross is the central plank of ALL that God did.

    From the Crib to the Cross to His Coming is all the "last days" work of God –Jesus came again and "completed" salvation. This is NOT saying the work of the Cross was in any way inadequate, far from it; it is saying salvation because Christ returned is an established fact in totality. The first century believers had in one sense a "positional" salvation, theirs was the "earnest" the "down-payment" of the Spirit till the "outworking" of their salvation came in full –this happened at Christ's Parousia. Because this is true the benefit for us since that time is this:

    Rev 14:6 "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

    Try asking this the other way around: "Why do you reject the notion that Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70 was not the larger picture of God's judgment against sin and death." Jerusalem's destruction was the main means in showing the ending of the Old Covenant Age. From Pentecost to Holocaust was "THE" generation when ALL that was written should be FULFILLED –not some partly, BUT all completely.

    Luke 21:22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are written may be fulfilled."

    davo
     
  3. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    I can't believe you and p70 are still beating this dead horse. I thoroughly answered this objection before. Let's NOT start with the crucifixion but with prophecy and how God teaches us to interpret it. OT prophecy has fulfillment beyond typology and shadows. Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and yet Christ looked for a future fulfillment. While you might want to deny this we have early Jewish sources which recognize Antiochus as fulfilling Daniel. Furthermore, not every word in every verse has to have a parallell or future fulfillment, we have Matthew as a prominent example who took OT prophecies and recorded how Jesus fulfilled PORTIONS of those prophecies. Using your method I could totally discredit the inspired disciple by pointing out those sections of the prophecies which didn't find their fulfillment in Christ. Apply your logic and reasoning to the disciples and tell us how absurd and illogical they were for using this type of interpretation.
     
  4. JCB

    JCB New Member

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    Eph 6:11-13 says, "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

    I was reading this passage this morning and was wondering if preterists take this like futurists do. Preterists believe "the evil day" is past, right? Preterists also believe the devil doesn't have any power or wiles against us anymore, since he has already been thrown into the lake of fire, correct?

    Thanks...and, it's nice to be back chatting with ya'll!

    JCB
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    LOL, it is now! :D

    But Thunder, The things you posted are not what preterists actually believe. That's what we are trying to get you to understand. You posted what you think we believe, but you were wrong. I was merely pointing our your error to the newcomers, so they could indeed make educated, instead of blind, Judgements.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

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    You still have a problem with terminus. In your system no one can say that x,y,or z was the final fulfillment. Be it the cross or the granting of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost according to Joel, futurists have no way to put a cap on any repeat of Calvary and many other events that fulfilled O.T. prophecies.

    The bible, however, does place a terminus on Old Testament writings. Jesus said in Luke 24:44,46-48:

    Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." ...and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. YOU are witnesses of these things


    And so we see Jesus make a clear promise that all things written would be fulfilled, and that Christ's apostles would witness that, from the crucifixion to the preaching to all the nations starting at Jerusalem. Therefore the terminus for when "ALL THINGS WRITTEN" would be fulfilled is the apostles lifetime. The gospel to all nations was indeed fulfilled in their lifetime (Matt 24:14; Col 1:23; Romans 10:18; 1 Tim 3:16; Col 1:5-6; Rom 16:26). Paul clearly understood his mission (Acts 13:47) and did not fail.

    Luke knows his stuff, for he says this same thing elsewhere and ties it to a real event of the 1st century:


    Luke 21:20-22 [Roman-Jewish War]
    But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, SO THAT ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN WILL BE FULFILLED.


    So we have a clearly outlined terminus from Jesus and the apostles. This lines up perfectly with the argument about the Mosaic system being the shadow of Christ's eternal religion, temple, and priesthood. For Galatians 3:17-29 shows that there was a very specific beginning and terminus for the Law Age (which was a true "parenthesis" in redemptive history).


    After the destruction of Old Covenant Israel no one could any longer drum up new fulfillments of O.T. shadows and certainly no one has the right to create shadows out of things fulfilled by Christ and the apostles leading up to the Roman Jewish war -- the clear terminus provided to us in scripture. The New Covenant Age is eternal in duration and is no shadow or temporary age.
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Are these the same early Jewish sources that failed to recognize Jesus was the Messsaih? Do we dare trust these "recognitive powers"?

    Nothing in scripture gives anyone the ability to claim with any authority that Antiochus fulfilled the AoD. Conversely, Jesus Said (and that should be proof enough) that Daniels AoD was indeed a yet future event, from the time He spoke.


    Jesus didn't usher in yet another era of types and shadows.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  8. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    I'm one that believes that Antiochus was mentioned in Daniel. But if that were true it only proves that Antiochus was the Old testament shadow to the New Testament reality in Christ's generation. But like Parousia has stated, Christ did not usher in another era of types and shadows and multiple fulfillments. The abomination was to be recognized as being "upon them" when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in Luke 21. And when Rome surrounded Jerusalem within the disciples lifetime, the abomination was near and the disciples were to flee to the mountains. It really is quite clear.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  9. Erwin

    Erwin Well-Known Member

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    As one of the Senior Staff here, I want to make one thing clear:

    This is the End Times forum - it is a forum to deal with the End Times. As such, it is for the discussion of things that will occur at the end of our time, when Jesus returns in His Second Coming.

    This forum is NOT to discuss history or things that have already happened in the past. It is for the discussion of current and future events - regardless of your eschatological view.

    If you don't hold this view, please refrain from posting in this forum as this forum is for people to discuss issues like the End Times, Armageddon, the Rapture and other such things.

    I hope this has cleared things up a bit. I will edit the forum description to make this clear.
     
  10. davo

    davo Member

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    G'day Erwin :wave:

    Correct me if I'm wrong. I have a sense that your reference to discussions on things "past" or "historic" is a call for no more discussions from a preteristic perspective of prophetic end-time events? If this is so can you clarify this. If this is correct would such discussions be more appropriate in one of the other 2 dozen discussion areas of Christian Forums -if so which ones?? Just seeking some clarity. :)

    Blessings

    davo
     
  11. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Hi GW,

    I was following along pretty well before this thread was created, maybe i've missed it on another page, during your discussion with Messenger you were making points about the dead being resurrected from Hades ? Do you remember or could you point to the verses that support this resurrection :confused:
     
  12. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hey JCB - welcome to the forum! Great mug, by the way. :)

    Full preterists would say that, yes, we do still need the armor of God, though maybe not for exactly the same reasons as the 1st Century Saints. Some full-preterists believe that even though "the day" has come, principalities can still effect the world, but their power is utterly broken and are no longer "rulers". I'm not quite sure about that, myself. Anyway, we still need truth, righteousness, the gospel, faith, salvation, and God's Word, so the armor is still worn by preterists and futurists alike! Just like in 1Cor. 13 when Paul said that faith, hope, and love continue, even after the "perfect" comes.

    For partial-preterists this isn't even an issue; "the Day" has not occurred yet, and although the Millenial reign is in progress, we still need the armor for every reason that the 1st Century Church did.

    Hope this helped you, and I look forward to your participation on the forum.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  13. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Whoa....I was about to ask the same question: I read all of Ephesians last night and wondered the same thing!

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  14. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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    Is that you Joe?? From Notdeceived.net? =)

    -Jason
     
  15. JCB

    JCB New Member

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    Hoon - yes, it's me! I finally made it through the perils of tax season and now have a bit more time to spend around here...looking forward to it!

    Funny that you were wondering the same thing about the armor... :)

    God bless,

    JCB
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

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    First, this is another passage that shows Paul was expecting to live long enough to make it unto that evil day:

    "Wherefore take UNTO YOU [the Ephesians] the whole armour of God, that YOU may be able to withstand in the evil day"

    This passage becomes another failed prediction by Paul if his Ephesian audience did not live unto that evil day. He is talking to a people with whom he was well acquainted, and gives them misleading endtimes hopes that were not fulfilled as Paul had taught them to believe. Coming from Hal Lindsey or David Koresh that's okay. Coming from the apostle Paul it's not -- it destroys the trustworthiness of Christ and the apostles.

    Next, all the forces listed in the Eph 6 passage are the wicked enemies of the Church who were under darkness and influenced by their own demonic bondage. These principalities and rulers are the same ones mentioned in other passages of the N.T. - (The rulers who killed the Lord of Glory, etc. -- 1 Cor 2:6-8; Acts 4:25-26, 1 Peter 3:22). Paul points out they are under spiritual darkness.

    Finally, some full preterists believe that the victory over satan was one that liberated the Church and all its saints for all times and granted them all dominion. Such a great salvation and victory as was won by Christ -- however, this victory cannot universally apply to the damned. All who are and who ever have been out of Covenant with God have maintained their POSITION in regards to darkness. The Church alone has full victory and command and dominion over heaven and earth. Only the Church has had darkness removed and crushed under its feet. Only the Church is that nation that has received all dominion over Heaven and earth.
     
  17. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Hi Phoenix! I think this thread stands. I've seen confusing reports from the higher ups.

    Um,

    Resurrection of the dead is a very simple doctrine from the preterist view.

    #1) The dead are all those who finished their lives on planet earth. They are a category of people -- the dead.

    #2) In Paul's time, and going all the way back to Adam, the dead went to Hades/Sheol at their physical deaths. This place was NOT Heaven and it was NOT the lake of fire (commonly known as "hell" in today's parlance). Those places weren't prepared yet.

    #3) The bible then teaches WHEN Hades/Sheol was to be destroyed (Rev 20:12-15; 1 Cor 15:55-55), giving up the dead.


    Preterists maintain that 1 Cor 15:55-56 clearly lists that Hades/Sheol was destoyed when the Age of the Law of Moses came to its end:

    1 Corinthians 15:54-56
    then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where,O HADES is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW


    That is the victory slogan when the resurrection of the dead happens. All agree on that.

    We are not still waiting for Hades to be destroyed. We are not still waiting for the Law of Moses to reach its end. We are not still waiting for the dead to be raised out of Hades and taken into their eternal inheritance in Heaven or eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire ("hell" in common parlance). All the dead are now either in Heaven's eternal bliss or in hell. There is no Hadean realm anymore. Hades was destroyed when the dead were raised out of it (1 Cor 15:55-56; Rev 20:12-15).

    The Law Age was forever ended at the destruction of the Temple. That age had run its appointed course of time (Gal 3:19,24-25; Gal 4:4-5). We know that the Old Covenant was still hanging on to God's people as of Heb 8:13 (see also 2 Cor 3:6-12; Gal 4:24-25; Gal 4:8-12; Col 2:16-22, Acts 21:20-26, etc), but that Old Covenant was about to vanish (Heb 8:13; Heb 10:9) -- it did fully vanish at AD 70 when Christ's prophecies about the Temple came to pass.
     
  18. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Thanks GW,

    That was a great thread. I'm just not knowledgable enough to say where i truly stand on the resurrection, but i've always wondered if that was part of the great mystery. Especially revealed in this verse from Eph 5:14

    Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

    Blue letter Bible translation..sorry. The thee's, thou's, est's, whilst, saith's, drive me nuts !
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
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    Glad that was simple enough to follow.

    Basically, anyone who believes Heaven and Hell are now full of people are fully preterist without knowing it! They are full of people who were in Hades up until AD 70 when the dead were raised out of Hades in the blink of an eye and taken to heaven or hell forever.

    Futurist Christians cannot believe in a current Heaven full of saints (or hell full of the damned) -- you'll notice my friend "The Messenger" is consistent on this one point. He is a futurist and rightly recognizes that his futurism requires that Heaven is not opened yet to the saints.
     
  20. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
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    Hi GW,

    Would that include partial preterists like Gary DeMar? Doesn't he believe Revelation chapters 1-20 were fulfilled in the first century? Or was it Revelation chapters 1-19? :)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
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