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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    John,

    I, too, am focused on the work of the Holy Spirit (rather, He is focused on us).

    Let's never forget what Paul wrote to people who claim to be spirit-filled:

    1 Corinthians 14:37
    If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment


    Truly spiritual Christians follow the apostles' doctrines as the Lord's own teachings. This next scripture applies to those who do not accept Paul's teaching that the last days were his own times:

    1 Corinthians 3:1
    And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.



    For we KNOW that Paul taught all his flocks that the last days had come upon his generation:


    Hebrews 1:2
    in these last days has spoken to us

    1 Corinthians 10:11
    Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for OUR instruction upon whom the ends of the ages HAVE come.


    We can be no more spiritual than when we make sure we fall in line with the apostles' teaching on WHEN the last days were. They taught only what the Holy Spirit revealed.
     
  2. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    +231
    Atheist
    Married
    US-Others
    Hi JohnR7,

    Everyone uses principles of interpretation when they study God's Word, consciously or unconsciously, my friend. If you espouse a futurist eschatology, then guess what? You're using certain principles to arrive at your interpretation. I too am led by the Holy Spirit, and hermeneutics does not replace Him.

    Hey, I liked the avatar of your family. I'll miss it!

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  3. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    LOL!!!


    what is absurd is the length's your taking to cover up the fact that you took the word ORIGIN threw away the definition and and substituted it. giving the word origin as the definition..

    Originally posted by The Messenger
    it would have been grammatically incorrect to use the noun "chilias" in connection with "etos"(year) which is also a noun.



    the context is not givin as an approximation there is a definite beginning and end to this time period, with events occuring at each nor does the definition say chilioi" is a "rounded number" your inderting what you want it to say again

    i notice you did not respond to my bringing up that in Rev 20 if thousand means an undefinite number of "thousands" then the word used would have been "Murias" which Strong's defines as:

    1. ten thousand
    2. an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number
    3. innumerable hosts


    Revelation 20:2(NASB)
    He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

    Revelation 20:2(NLT)
    And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

    Revelation 20:2(KJV)
    He seized the dragon--that old serpent, the Devil, Satan--and bound him in chains for a thousand years.

    Revelation 20:2(NKJV)
    And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    Revelation 20:2(AMP)
    He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

    Revelation 20:2(RSV)
    And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that old serpent [of primeval times], who is the devil and Satan, and [securely] bound him for a thousand years.

    Revelation 20:2(KJV21)
    And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

    Revelation 20:2(NIV)
    And he laid hold on the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

    Revelation 20:2(WE)
    He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

    Revelation 20:2(YLT)
    He caught the dragon, that old snake who is called the devil and Satan. The angel tied him for a thousand years.

    Revelation 20:2(DARBY)
    and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,

    Revelation 20:2(ASV)
    And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent who is [the] devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years



    BTW, have you found a literal translation that has "a thousand" displayed as "thousands of"? and the publisher?
     
  4. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hey Messenger,

    Whew - that's a long one! Pretty creative, though.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  5. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    I wonder if the Holy Spirit is proud to be used in the way he is on this board. Too often people use "I am following the holy spirit" as a euphemism for "I don't agree with you and I don't wish to debate you any longer."

    Disagree with someone, just call into question their salvation and claim that you are holy and they are not -- that'll send them running back to their bunkers.

    -Chris
     
  6. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Shane,

    Could you elaborate on these questions of yours? I'll try to honestly answer them =)

    -Jason
     
  7. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi guys,

    I was just thinking about cults the other day. Actually 2 cult members (Jehovah Witnesses) came to my house 2 days ago. Unfortunately I wasn't in the house to answer the door. ;)

    Did anyone notice their view on the end times is somewhat similar to dispensationalist? Anyway, if you ever come across cults, especially when they talk about the end times, I think passages like Matthew 16:27-27, Heb 1:2, or 1 John 2:18 would have them running! =)

    Maybe then cults like Moonies, Mormons, and Jehovah Witnesses would have no place to stand =)

    By the way, Rev. Moon (of the Moonies) claims that he's the Messiah of the Second Coming. Ridiculous isn't it? Yet, he's misleading 3 million followers. How much more should we as Christians take back lost land? =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  8. Ephesian

    Ephesian Member

    96
    +2
    Non-Denom
    Willis Deal,
    Bingo! I think you just described my belief to a tee. I also believe in the dual fulfillment. I think God deals with the short term as well as the long term at the same time and in the same way. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Amen!
     
  9. I would like to add another principle. "We have a God that cannot lie". For the first time since Noah said it was going to rain Christians can now address the questions of the secular media and other religions who are always looking for an excuse to discredit Christianity and call OUR God a lier. They too know how to read the Bible and they know Jesus promised to return in the life time of his disciple.

    And believe it or not when we tell a Jew about a futurist coming of Christ this is why they discredit Jesus and say he cannot be God Israel Messiah. Why? Because the Messiah would accomplish redemption and judgement in one generation with no gaps, delays, paretheses or postponements. The full establishment of the Kingom could not be delayed.

    Now all glory to God we can answer their questions and show how Jesus accomplish redemption and judgement in one generation. :clap:
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Is that biblical?

    Let's start with the crucifixion. What current events look to be the GREATER fulfillment of the calvary event in our bibles? The WTC boming of thousands of innocents? Columbine? Some other event coming soon? Abortion? Something has to fit...rule of multiple fulfillments.

    Next, let's look at the virgin birth. Perhaps cloning is the greater fulfillment in our times of that shadow provided by Mary and Jesus? Something has to fit...rule of multiple fulfillments.

    Christ's ministry of miraculous cures. No doubt that modern medicine is the GREATER messiah of our times for which Jesus was a mere shadow. Modern medicine has brought cures for ailments and diseases on a massive scale NEVER before done by anyone including Jesus. Surely Christ's healings were just a type for a far greater healing of the sick in our times.

    Do I really need to keep going?

    This, folks, is exactly the pattern of logic futurists display. I have fairly applied their logic to other important subjects of bible prophecy to illustrate just how inconsistent and absurd a "multiple fulfillments" concept is.

    What futurists are getting confused is the O.T. theology of Messianic TYPOLOGY. Typology is the biblically supported doctrine wherein the apostles claim that the Mosaic Ministry (Temple, sacrifices, priesthood, etc) were foreshadowings of Jesus Christ. We all should study this important concept and recognize that the pattern ends once the Mosaic System is gone.

    Futurists fail to recognize that the terminus for this TYPOLOGICAL method of understanding the Old Covenant passages arrived 20 centuries ago -- and so they continue turning NEW COVENANT ERA things into mere types and shadows of yet-future-to-us events.

    GW
     
  11. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    Futurists do not believe, as posted, that Jesus was referring to returning during the disciples lifetime.
    Preterists view depends on one word, "THIS" GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY" , or "THAT" generation shall not pass away.'
    Basing one's belief on 'THIS' or "THAT" is the preterist's choice.
     
  12. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    The only other things I disagree with are the full preterist viewpoints of:
    being followers of Josephus, taking his word over scripture.
    denying that some of the books of the bible were written AFTER 70 AD
    SAYING THAT THE 2ND COMING ALREADY HAPPENED, the judgements books have already been opened, satan is bound, that we are living in the new heaven & new earth. That in the past, humans bought & sold everything only if they had a spiritual mark either in their hand or forehead.
    It seems too much like reincarnation to say that we have already been judged & are living in heaven now & that it shall never pass away.
    I think these are the types of things people would rather find explained.
     
  13. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    We either believe Jesus and take Him at his word or we make him out to be a false prophet. Jesus said he was coming back in their generation and his own apostles to whom he was speaking were promised that THEY would experience those endtimes events (Matt 24:33). It is not an option to just dismiss Jesus.

    Nor can we ignore the many other times Jesus gave promise of a 1st century return (John 21:21-22; Matthew 10:22-23; Matthew 16:27-28; Matthew 21:40-45). We cannot just ignore that every one of the apostles believed and taught that the return was going to happen very soon in their lifetimes (Heb 10:37).

    When we really look closely scripture we see that it comes down to this:

    If Jesus returned within His generation, then the Futurist view is a lie.
    If Jesus didn’t return within His generation, then Christianity is a lie.
     
  14. Hi Brother Actually I run into members of(Jehovah Witnesses) all the time. One of their biggest errors and arguments is Jesus a man cannot be God.

    I love to point them to a verse in the Old Testament that they trust to be the word of God which says: Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. So he lifted his eyes and (looked and three men were standing by him) and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, and said, "My Lord,if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. (Genesis 18:1-3)

    Their Bible reads the some way as ours here. God here appeared to Abraham as a man. They have no idea how to answer that verse. And you know how Jehovah Witnesses always say they will be back. I have never had anything from them since I showed them this verse again. The Jehovah Witnesses I have ran into hold something like a premilleniaism view. They also believe we are living in the last day and God will reign on literal earth.
     
  15. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    willis,
    GW makes an exellant observation about not even considering the past when looking at prophesy.

    he makes several good points , what is your opinion on this???

    by the way;
    at the same time , I think I understand were your coming from.

    tell me if I get this right because this stuff bothers and confuses me about this total fullfillment in 70 AD.

    I do not believe that all of matt ch 24 was fullfilled in 70 AD.

    some do, they explain that the sun disapearing and the moon not giving her light and the stars falling from the sky all happened in 70 AD at the fall of jeruselum and the temple.

    they say it is symbolic. Is this what you bring into error as I do.

    another would be were peter stands and says that this is that what joel speaks off, that they shall prophesy , see visions and dreams.

    yet there is a later fullfillment of that as well I believe (I think I believe it anyway :D).

    I wonder , did peter get it wrong??? no way , they turned the world up side down.

    but will it happen again on a greater scale and is that what joel was refering to.

    If it is ,it would posably make peters asumption that joel was talking about peters time, when it infact is for a future age, wrong.

    I think I just talked myself out of believing it is for a future day :scratch: :rolleyes: ;)

    chaos
     
  16. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

    +36
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No, the futurist view is not a "lie," unless it is being intentionally wielded to deceive. It's merely interpreting those passages differently or maybe even ignoring those passages. All that is mistaken is not a lie.
     
  17. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Uhm....forgive me for my lack of understanding but what does the three men have to do with this? I'm confused. Please share =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Lie can just mean "the opposite of the truth."

    That's all I mean.

    Clearly, if Christ came back in that generation as he and the apostles all taught and expected then futurist ideas go down the drain. If Christ did not come back in that generation as he and all the apostles taught and believed then all of Christianity goes down the drain.

    Great article to illustrate this point:

    The Lowdown on God's Showdown
    http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=86
     
  19. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    hiya hoonbaba.

    it is a reference to the Trinity i think. a few verses down we see the LORD having a conversation with "himself(ves)".

    Genesis3:17-19
    The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, seeing that Abraham shall become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves by him? No, for I have chosen him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice; so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him."

    thought provoking eh?

    BTW, actually JW's have the second coming as a "spiritual" one that occured in World War 1. they do not look for a physical coming, and theytry to say in taht Jesus is the really the Archangel Michael.

    i wrote a cool post on Jesus in the on the lb board, i will see if it is still there.
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    That's because the O.T. prophets used identical language to describe Yahweh's judgments on kings and nations of their day -- (see Isa 13:10 -- read all of Isa 13 about destruction of O.T. Babylon; see Is 34:4-5 about judgment on Edom 703BC; see Nahum chapter 1 about destruction of Ninevah; see 2 Sam 22:8-16 about destruction of Saul's Kingdom; see Zephaniah 1 about destruction of O.T. Edom in the Persian era)

    Exactly. St. Peter rightly understands the meaning of the Holy Spirit being poured out upon Israel. It can only mean one thing -- the last days did come. Peter says so under inspiration of the Holy Ghost: "THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel -- IN THE LAST DAYS I will pour out my spirit on all flesh..."

    So Peter has either made a huge error or else futurists have made a tremendous error. I know whose side I'm on. :)


    But that is not what Joel was saying. Peter tells us precisely WHEN Joel's prophecy about the last days came to pass. To say otherwise is to make Peter a false teacher.


    With you in the victory of Christ,
    GW
     
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