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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Typically, partial preterists say they expect the following events at some far distant time in the future:

    *Resurrection of the Dead
    *Final Judgment
    *Final Coming of Christ


    I don't know how DeMar deals with Rev 20. I can say this, however: I believe Rev 20:12-15 is parallel to 1 Cor 15:55-56:


    1 Corinthians 15:54-56
    then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where,O HADES is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

    --COMPARE TO--


    Revelation 20:12-14
    And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne...and the dead were judged...and DEATH and HADES gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. THEN DEATH AND HADES WERE THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


    Therefore I believe that if DeMar or Scott Hahn thinks Rev 20 is past (both are Amillennial on the 1000 years -- Gentry is a Postmil), then they must concede that 1 Cor 15:55-56 is past.

    Follow?

    Scott Hahn may think these are fulfilled; if he does then he holds to a separate resurrection of the dead that is STRICTLY from creeds and not scripture.
     
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Thankyou Much Erwin,
    For restoring order to this forum. I was hoping that someone would step in and draw the line before it was too late. I also would like to add that your moderators are also doing a fine job, and hopefully the members that quit coming to this forum will return soon.

    Thanks Again To Everyone Involved
     
  3. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +12
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    Yes, as a matter of fact i remember a lengthy debate between you, TM and Faustus on the old LBMB regarding that same thing. Good stuff, i respect you both for your depth of knowledge and polite debates. Them were the days :)
     
  4. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
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    Again, yes it was. I've had this running through my mind the last couple of days, not so much in regards to preterism or futurism, but just as a general thought. I dont have time to look up the specific verse it's in one of the Gospels near the end ( bet that helps huh :) ) It says and Jesus opened their minds to the Scriptures so that they might understand who he was or the prophecy concerning him.
    Something to that affect. Do you think that scripture can apply to us today or have we been given enough through the Gospels and Paul's letters and the Epistles to figure things out concerning the end-times or the resurrection of the dead ?

    I hope that doesn't come across wrong, perhaps i'm taking that verse way out of context, but as they say enquiring minds want to know. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
     
  5. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    actually that is an incorrect assertion on what i believe, i have explained this to GW numerous times, but it appears beyond his grasp. after almost 2 years if he does not understand, i beleive he never will.
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Is Heaven currently full of individual saints who are occupying their mansions and enjoying eternal bliss and rewards?
     
  7. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Like i said i thought i remembered this argument fairly well, it was about soul sleep ? It probably will go way over my head, but would you mind sharing your belief TM ?
     
  8. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    hiya Phoenix,


    actually it is not real complicated, it is not "soul sleep" in the traditional sense maybe a better name is "body sleep" i believe a person can and does communicate with God, and in fact there are examples in the bible that do directly back this up. there is much scripture on it, and i will post a few here that directly back up my statements.

    as beleivers we are made alive in the spirit with Christ, this does not change when we die, only the body is dead because of sin, and the only thing needing a "resurrection" is that which is dead, not that which is alive.

    Romans 8:10
    But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.



    in this state of physical death, we can communicate with God, Christ went and preached to the dead after he died on the cross those that believed were made spiritually alive as well.

    1 Peter 3:18-20
    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison , who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

    also here the unresurrected dead communicate with God.

    Revelation 6:9-11
    When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice , "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to REST a little longer , until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
     
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
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    Jesus did not preach to any dead persons in Hades. Peter was saying what Paul also had said, namely that Christ was active in the Old Testament times:

    1 Cor 10:1-2,3,9
    all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ...Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents


    Peter is pointing out that Christ was there preaching with Noah's family to the disobedient while the Ark was being prepared and only 8 were saved by water -- Peter compares that to the salvation through water baptism. Paul taught that this was true also with Moses (1 Cor 10; Heb 11:26) and also with Father Abraham (Gal 3:8). Compare:

    1 Peter 4:6
    For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,

    Galatians 3:8
    And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Paul is not saying here that your earthly, physical, biological body is dead. He is saying our "old selves" are dead (Rom 6:6,11-12). You continually misinterpret Romans 8:10-13 because you are thinking that Paul is talking about biological dying and the general resurrection of the dead when He is NOT.

    You are missing Paul's whole point in Romans chapters 6-8. Paul is using Christ's death and resurrection as a METAPHOR for our being crucified to old dead lives of sin and our new resurection ways of living in the Spirit. Both of these are experienced by us on earth in our current, living, physical biological bodies (called our "mortal bodies" by Paul). You have misunderstood Paul.


    Romans 6:4
    Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.


    This is not talking about physical biological dying and resurrection of rotted corpses! It is a metaphor for being dead to our old ways of sin (fleshly living) and being resurrected into a new way of resurrection life in the Spirit (spiritual living). Both of these states mentioned here, death and resurrection, are METAPHORS for our states of conversion meaning the crucifixion of our old selves and resurrection into "walking in newness of life." Paul is speaking metaphorically, personifying sin as a slave master who had ownership over us but lost ownership because we are now "crucified beings" with regard to our old slave master (Mr. Sin):

    Romans 6:6
    knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to Sin;


    This is a metaphor here having nothing to do with physical dying. We are not biologically dead here typing to each other. I assure you that blood is runnin' warm through my veins as I write to you. And so we understand that Romans 6:11-13 is the same thing as Romans 8:10-13! This is NOT talking about biological death and the bodily resurrection of the departed souls.

    These are exactly parallel and do NOT speak of biological death of earthly physical bodies:


    Romans 6:11-13
    Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin [not biological death], but alive to God in Christ Jesus [not bodily resurrection]. Therefore DO NOT LET SIN REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY so that you obey its lusts [the 'mortal body' here is our living biological earthly bodies], and do not go on presenting the members of your body [our earthly biological bodies] to sin as instruments of unrighteousness ; but present yourselves to God AS THOSE ALIVE FROM THE DEAD [metaphorically speaking], and your members [biological bodies] as instruments of righteousness to God.


    And so we see that this passage is not talking at all about a resurrection of decayed mortal dead bodies in graves. And if we have been careful students of the Word we notice that the above passage of Romans 6:11-13 is exactly parallel to Romans 8:10-13:


    Romans 8:10-13
    If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin [not biological deadness], yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness [not bodily resurrection]. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead WILL ALSO GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit who dwells in you [the 'mortal body' here is our present, living, biological bodies]. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die [eternal death]; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live [eternal life].


    In both passages the topic is not about biological dying. It is using the metaphor that we have "crucified our old selves" and that we are also at the same time "resurrected to newness of life." Therefore we are to yield our mortal bodies to live after our NEW resurrected selves and not after our Old Selves. For if we now live "according to the flesh" (i.e., according to the old crucified self) we shall have eternal death. But if we shall live according to the Spirit via mortifying the sinful deeds of the flesh we have life everlasting in God's presence.
     
  11. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Thanks for the response TM :) I'm going to look at it along with other stuff you and GW were posting on the resurrection.
     
  12. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    actually GW, i have understood Paul perfectly :D


    that is why i can simply post scripture and it makes sense, buy you have to post paragraph after paragraph of "interpretation" and in many cases wind up making scripture mean the exact opposite of what it plainly says, your mistake is simple, your using doctrine to determine the meaning of scripture, instead of using scripture to determine your doctrine.

    Romans 6:1-8
    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death , so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his . We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him .

    you see GW, this is where your whole argument breaks down. your saying these are references to a single redemption that occured in 70ad but you use words and how they are arranged as prooftexts that were written BEFORE that time...think about that. you see there was a redemption that occured in 30ad, namely the cross, anyone living past that time that believed in Christ were included in that redemption.

    here you will find both redemptions spoken of.

    Galatians 3:23-29
    Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed . So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come , we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise .

    this was a present reality pre70ad made possible by a redemptive sacrifice in 30ad, again i remind you...remember when it was written. in Romans 7 Paul goes into further detail about how they ARE(not will be) "dead to" and "discharged from" the Law.

    this is also what destroyed your argument everyone was under the law until 70ad. according to scripture, they obviously were not.

    now look at this:

    Romans 8:23
    and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons , the redemption of our bodies.


    but wait! are they not ALREADY "sons"?

    Galatians 4:5-7
    But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir .

    now compare that to Romans 8:23 that i have already posted. these are 2 different timelines the redemption of the spirit, which brings about the redemption of the body at death. one HAS to be a son spiritually to become a son physically. spiritual redemption makes us heirs, physical redemption is RECIEVING the inheritance.

    this is a perfect harmony of scripture, and directly backs me up. i do not have to "interpet" it means what it simply says.

    now as far as you trying to say the dead were not preached to, i think this is your weakest argument yet, and is a microcosm of you greater error.

    your throwing 1 Peter 3:18-20 right out the window, and trashing the meaning of it. the people used as an example here GW are the ones that DIED IN THE FLOOD.

    For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey , when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

    look at the events here:

    1. Christ physically died, but was alive in the spirit.

    "being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit"


    2. IN WHICH he WENT and preached to the spirits in PRISON who FORMERLY DID NOT OBEY.

    "in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey"

    i also notice your still ignoring my simple question, you just wont face the fact that YOU yourself are proof i am right!

    you have the spiritual redemption from sin, but your still in a physical body, unglorified, not immortal, you are still liable to death, still needing a redemption of the body GW! you are waiting on this promise of redemption from the earth, but have not attained it yet. your going to die before you get resurrected. just like the bible says.
     
  13. kulkaramkes

    kulkaramkes New Member

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    Why do you guys talk about this stuff? I'm confused... i'm just starting to grow and know Jesus but what is all this talk about these things? It confuses me... what's the point of all this? Is this what God wants us to do?

    :help:
     
  14. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Ephesians 1:13-14
    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession

    Ephesians 4:30
    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of redemption

    Believing in Christ and having the Holy Spirit of promise was a mere EARNEST to tide them over until the redemption of the His people (the "purchased possession" -- Acts 20:28)





    You continue to ignore that the Law was still in power over the Galatians -- they were bewitched and not redeemed out from under the Law as Christ had come to do for them. Paul said he was in travail again UNTIL Christ be formed in them. You say they had it. I agree with Paul that they did not. They were not transitioned out of the bondage Covenant (Gal 4:24-25) until it was fully gone at AD 70. They were waiting in hope for the very "righteousness by faith" (Gal 5:5) that Paul talked about all through Romans. If you know Romans, you know that Righteousness by Faith is what they were to transition to instead of righteousness via the Law. Paul's clear statment in Gal 5:5 shows that they did not have this righteousness by faith yet -- they were all still waiting for salvation.


    Galatians 5:5
    For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith

    Romans 8:24-25
    For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.





    If you read Galatians you can't help but see that they were NOT yet untangled from the Law. Paul was merely holding out a hope for them -- so long as they were in the Law for righteousness they were NOT in righteousness by faith and were waiting for it (Gal 5:5). There is simply no way to assign the Galatians a redeemed status since Paul's point is that they were bewitched, making Christ of NO EFFECT, and had remained in bondage. So, no, they were clearly NOT redeemed from the Law and Paul's urgent letter to them was one of warning that they might be damned:

    Galatians 4:9
    But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?



    Paul clearly never taught your "spiritual redemption" invention. Spiritual redemption, in your view, is by believing in Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit. Paul calls that A MERE EARNEST until the redemption:

    Ephesians 1:13-14
    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession


    Nothing could refute you more clearly than this verse which does NOT call believing and being filled with the Holy Spirit "redemption." Paul explicitly calls that A PLEDGE (an earnest) -- a PLEDGE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION. You now are trying to have TWO purchased possessions in view. LOL.



    Rather, it is a most comical error on your part.

    Jesus preached to them "when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark." It was by the Spirit that Jesus did this. This is the exact same thing as Paul taught about Christ in the Old Testament:


    1 Cor 10:1-2,3,9
    all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ...Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents


    Peter is pointing out that Christ was there preaching with Noah's family to the disobedient while the Ark was being prepared and only 8 were saved by water -- Peter compares that to the salvation through water baptism. Paul taught that this was true also with Moses (1 Cor 10; Heb 11:26) and also with Father Abraham (Gal 3:8). Compare:

    1 Peter 4:6
    For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,

    Galatians 3:8
    And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham
     
  15. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    anyone under grace was not under law read the scriptures for what they say.

    it is obvious in one sense they had redemption, AND in another they were waiting for it.by "they" i refer to those under Grace.

    some people were putting themselves back into bondage through law, but the fact they had an alternative system than the mosaic system proves i am right in saying for ANYONE under grace was not under law... pre 70ad

    i am not "inventing" a redemption that came from the cross, your trying to avoid it. scripture directly backs me up.

    anytime redemption is spoken of in the future tense it means redemption from physical death, which for them then and you and i now is a future event.

    anytime redemption is spoken of in past tense it is the redemption from sin and the law that has been available since 30ad when Christ died. a redemption you and i have now...w do not ahve to wait on it.

    te spiritual kingdom has worked the way it has since it began during Christs first coming.

    and your argument that Christ did not preach to the dead while he was dead is so weak i do not see why your bothering. ;)
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Ephesians 1:13-14
    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession

    Ephesians 4:30
    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of redemption


    Ephesians 1:13-14
    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession



    Unscriptural.

    Believing in Christ and being filled with the Holy Ghost was not redemption. It was a PLEDGE of FUTURE redemption:

    Ephesians 1:13-14
    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession



    You do not have redemption if you are a futurist.

    Not a single Jew knew about redemption from the law until Paul's ministry. Then, they still kept the Law until AD 66 when they fled the city according to Luke 21:20-22 and Matt 24:15-18. Only the gentiles were released from observance at the Council of Jerusalem.

    What I believe you consistently fail to account for is that the Cross did not magically remove true Israel from the Law Observance for righteousness. Clearly the knowledge that the Temple was to be destroyed let them know that some major change in observance was coming, but they did not have the details revealed until Paul. Paul's teaching is that the Law was to be observed but NOT FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Council of Jerusalem). And, it took decades to get the message out to the country and world to redeem a Torah-Observant Nation and Jews from its status quo observance which had them all still damned and in danger of doom at AD 70. Furthermore, to NOT fully come out from observing Torah for righteousness was to be damned and to not have "Christ formed in them." So, you give no account for any of the historical situation nor understand that for the apostles this salvation and redeemption from the Law was FUTURE to them (but past to us).


    The notion that Christ had a preaching ministry in Hades/Sheol is one of the best myths I've heard. It's not scriptural. Do you also believe in Purgatory, the related teaching?
     
  17. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hi Kulkaramkes, welcome to the forum!

    I believe that discussion and debate about certain difficult biblical issues is a healthy part of the Christian experience. GW and Messenger are testing what they believe with each other, and even though they my not agree, such discussions can be a source of learning differing points of view. At least they can know where each other is coming from. I learn a lot simply by sitting back and reading. The reason these things are talked about is because the issues are important to them. I don't think the Lord has any problem with such discussions...unless they start moving into the realm of personal attacks.

    Indepth discussion and debate can be productive, even if some people do not think that is the case. I know of a Mormon on a Christian forum who, just a few days ago, left the LDS Church because of a certain doctrinal "debate" on the forum. And I praise God for that. :)

    I hope you enjoy your stay here!

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  18. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello kulkaramkes,
    That is my point exactly. Some here have brought with them, the gift of confusion. They only seek to attack the faith of the christians here. This is not a good place right now for new christians, at least not on the front page of the forum. But you might find some interesting stuff on the back pages, say from pages 6 or 7 or so.
    Most of the people here do have good intentions, with the exception of about 5 or 6 people, who only want to divide the believers of this forum, probably so they can take over. They have already been kicked off of other forums, and it's just a matter of time before the same happens here. Happy posting friend, see ya
     
  19. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Thunder what would be to gain by taking over ?

     
  20. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hi Thunder. You can find deep, heavy topics on most of the forums here and anywhere on the internet. Actually, discussing most aspects of biblical prophecy is going to be confusing for a new believer. If a particular thread is to confusing for someone, they have the freedom to read it or not to read it. That's free agency. There are plenty of other easy going threads here for new believers to read. I think it's that simple. But I do agree with you: happy posting kulkaramkes!

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
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