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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hey!

    Good to see you again! I haven't been to CARM in a while. I prefer this message board over that one. This one has really cool features. LOL!!

    Actually I'm a full preterist, but at the same time I'm open to the possibility of a future coming of Christ, in a typolotical manner as in another 'day of the lord'.

    It happened several times in the old testament, (Isaiah 13:6, Ezekiel 13:5, Ezekiel 30:3), and in 70 AD (Zechariah 14:1, Malachi 4:5), so I don't see why it wouldn't happen again upon a particular nation or nations.

    But if it's for the purpose of establishing God's kingdom, then that's out of the questions, since his kingdom is already here =)

    Interesting position isn't it? I guess I'm a very partial full-preterist as opposed to a very full partial-preterist (like Gary DeMar) LOL!

    Hm..I just realized that a partial full-preterist doesn't make sense LOL! But I think you get what I mean =)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  2. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
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    Yes it does, thank you very much. :)
     
  3. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Acts6:5,
    I see you are new here. It's not like I haven't debated with the preterists, because I have a lot. I don't have anything against you guys. But neither side ever gains any ground, and we both end up looking like babbling fools. We should be thinking about lost souls, but no, we're sitting here spinning our wheels, and going no-where. It can only be an eye-sore to the lost. And Satan is laughing all the while. I think we need seperation. I don't mind talking to the preterists sometimes, but things are really getting out of hand fast. I know you think you guys are right, and we think we are right, but we all look foolish, because you can not mix what we believe, so why should we even try??
     
  4. Blackwing

    Blackwing Music Man With Black Wings(duh...)<img src="http:/

    +7
    Non-Denom
    Talking about other things except the things that divide us would be nice:)

    Do not worry RT, you are not banned;) let's keep things civil and all will be fine:)
     
  5. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    G'day Kelier :wave:

    There is much that can be written and the guys before are off to a good start -it might pay if you haven't already done, to go back through the various posts also.

    Just a quick summary on one point: The preteristic view on Christ's 2nd Coming. His coming was not about the end of our time/space universe i.e., this physical world of ours. His coming was all about end of the Old Covenant world of Judaism. Jerusalem and in particular The Temple were the center of Israel's life.

    The disciples asked: "what will be the sign of your coming and the "end of the world"? -note, that Christ's advent equals the "end of the world." More up-to-date translations accurately interpret the original Greek and translate "world" as "age," this is correct. So the "age" that was coming to an end was "the old covenant age" -Jesus brought in the New Covenant Age" -it was consumated [completed] in the destruction of all that personified the old covenant -Jerusalem and in particalar The Temple -this was Israel's World, and it came crashing down in AD70.

    Blessings.

    davo
     
  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    >>Isaiah chapter 13 has nothing to do with the end times. And I don't believe that Isaiah 13:10 is to be taken literally, since all of Isaiah 13 happened. Thus I believe that Matt 24:29 shouldn't be taken literally.

    You do not understand shaddows and types at all do you. That was the problem the Hebrews had, they thought that God was happy with them, because they sacrified animals on an alter to Him. They did not understand that the temple duty was a shaddow and a type. That Jesus would make the ultimate sacrifice for us.

    In Matthew 24, Jesus was talking about the events that were fulfilled in 70 ad. But also, these events are a shaddow and a type of what would happen at the end of this age of grace and truth. Jesus knew He was talking about both at the same time. He knew the people He was talking to, understood the shaddows and types in the Bible.

    God puts everything in our Bible for a reason. Our Bible contains the whole plan if redemption. If it did not need to be in the Bible, God would not have put it there. If it did not ALL apply to each and every one of us, then it would not be in our Bible.

    John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

    John tells us that all the books in the world could not contain all that God has done. But what was written was for our benifit so we could believe and be saved.

    John 20:30-31
    And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; [31] but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    JohnR,
    Your theory would have some teeth if it were true that the Messianic generation was but a "type" instead of the fulfillment itself.

    Was Calvary a mere "type" of some future greater redemption from sin?

    Was the Virgin Birth a mere "type" of some future virgin birth?

    The OT types pointed to the fulfillment achieved in the messianic generation.
    Christ didn't come to usher in yet another age of "types and shadows", he came in fulfillment.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  8. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +11
    Christian
    Thunder,

    The drama you present is hilarious,

    The battle for lost souls is not being fought on the internet or on a message board somewhere. It's being fought in our communities, churches, and schools. I embarrassed myself once by asking one of the Pastors in my Church if he thought we were in the end-times, his reply was that there was to much of Gods work that needed to be done today than to worry about what will happen in an hour, a month, a year or ten years from now. Keep things in prespective, reach out to someone today, pray that God will use you to share the message of His salvation with another, invite a friend to Church. There are a lot of good things happening outside of our time spent on the computer. We all, and certainly including myself, need to keep that in front of us.
     
  9. Katya

    Katya Regular Member

    366
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    What do you think would make a good forum. Where everyone has the same views? I'm sorry but I think that would be absolutely BORING!! Besides you will be surprised what you can learn from someone elses point of veiw. That's of course if you are open to new possibilities. :)
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
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    It's amazing how narrow minded some can be. You would actually believe that all the lost are just sitting there in there proper place, waiting for someone to share the gospel?? The lost can be found anywhere, and everywhere. Would you also believe that the lost are not smart enough to be on a computer?? If you find what I said hilarious, then everyone must be a commedian in your narrow scope. You must be the only one laughing.
     
  11. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Good point, Parousia.

    The pre-messianic period seemed to be the time of "types and shadows", while the messianic period was the fullment of those things. Kind of like how Antiochus Epiphanes and his setting up of an abomination in the Jewish temple during the Maccabean rebellion in 169BC was the "shadow", and Jesus sees it's fulfillment concerning the Romans within his generation (Matt. 24:1-34). Instead of 70AD being the shadow, I think that 169BC was the shadow and 70AD was the fulfillment. All those things did take place within that generation.

    JohnR7,

    I really like that picture of you and your family, by the way. What a Kodac moment.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  12. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hi Thunder,
    I don't always consider a debate successful by merely measuring the amount of ground won or lost, but by how much I learned about the other person's turf. I see this forum as a place of learning, not as a place to convert people to "my side". I do think about lost souls, but this is an End Times discussion board in which the primary purpose is to discuss our thoughts on the End Times.

    I believe you have a great deal of experience participating on discussion boards. I have too, and therefore we should both be able to admit that "spinning wheels" and long, heated debates can be found on any number of theology forums across the web, so the debates here should really not be any surprise. The passionate emotions that have erupted lately are nothing new, and have certainly not been the worst I have seen on a Christian forum. Heated debates are normal when people of different beliefs come together.

    If you learn a little more about what I believe, and I in turn understand more about what you believe then we have accomplished a great deal. The only time we look like fools and make a bad impression on non-Christian "visitors" is when we start slinging mud at each other and start throwing "anathemas" around, as has been the case lately. If we can cut that sort of behavior out then this forum will be just fine.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Lots wife was told to not look back, but she disobeyed and turned into a pillar of salt. The prophets looked to the future, and are pointing us in that direction as well. A lot of times, the prophets had no idea what they were talking about, but their message was for us, who live in the last days. Just like Daniel was told to seal up his words, because it was for people a long way off, in the end times, our times. But you preterists look forward to the past. Will you also turn into a pillar of salt?? Watch out for that tree! ! !
     
  14. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hi thunder, thanks for your thoughts.

    Prophets did point to the future. Old Testament prophets spoke of the coming of the Messiah and what would happen when He came. They certainly could not comprehend all of what was envisioned because it was hidden from them - although some of those vision were explained in great detail so that there would be no great mystery (like some of Daniel). But Christ came to reveal what was hidden. His disciples were instructed about what the scriptures meant and were not to be left in the dark. The Apostles certainly new what they were talking about concerning the End Times - the Holy Spirit was given to them to guide them in all truth and to reveal divine instructions to the Church.

    Daniel was told to seal up his words because the time was far off; John was told not to seal the prophetic words of the Revelation because the time was at hand. He wrote what was supposed to be "read, heard, and kept" because it was to "shortly come to pass" (Rev. 1:3). That's why Revelation is called Revelation. Preterists look forward to the future of what Christ will do in His kingdom.
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hiya Mandy, and Christ's riches to you.

    The "YOU" being spoken to in Matthew 24 never changes. The "YOU" is the apostles to whom Jesus is speaking in Matthew 24:2,4,6 9,15,20,23,25,26,33,34

    In Matthew 24:33 the "YOU" is still the apostles and the "YOU" in Matthew 24:34 is still the apostles.


    Matthew 24:33-34
    So, YOU too [the apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say TO YOU [that] this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.



    If you are not convinced that we should honor the literal and grammatical interpretation of the passage, I would point out to you that we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that Matthew 24:9-13 is the apostles -- for the passage is the same exact statement as Jesus gave the apostles in Matt 10:16-23 (cf. also to Matt 23:34-36 which was for THEIR GENERATION (23:36) ).

    It is easy to prove that the "YOU" in Matthew 24:15-20 is ALSO the apostles because Luke's account of the same exodus out of Jerusalem and Judaea in Luke 21:20-23 is assigned by every scholar to the period of AD 66-70. They are exactly parallel passages.

    Finally, Jesus emphasizes the "YOU" being the apostles in Matt 24:25. This "YOU" cannot be anyone other than the ones to whom he is speaking. AND, Jesus made this Matthew 24:25 elsewhere to the apostles about things THEY would experience (compare to John 14:29; John 13:19; and John 16:4).

    God bless!
     
  16. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    rollin', I have noticed that lots of times you make outlandish and sweeping statements that have no scriptural creedance -this is one of them. I'm sure the inspired prophets had way more idea than you give them credit -on what scriptural basis do you make this claim?

    Consider this:

    1Pt 1:8b-12 Though now you do not see Him [Peter's 1st century audience], yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith [continuous present tense -not yet complete but in the process of happening]--the salvation of your souls. 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully [i.e., had some idea], who prophesied of the grace that would come to you [Who? the 1st century saints], 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow [i.e., had better than some idea]. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us [the first century saints -of which we benefit] they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you [Who? the 1st century saints] through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into. [context context context!!]

    davo
     
  17. You have probably heard that Christians all over the World are presently changing to the view that Jesus has already come. Does this puzzle you? Most preterist were futurist at one time and had the expectation that Jesus' would return to planet Earth in our future. However as we studied on these things, and begin to (learn how the Church shifted in their thinking around in the middle of the second century from a spiritual fulfillment to a literal fulfillment) we changed our minds. It was a major change in thinking for each and every one of us and it did not happen over night.

    It answered many questions and brought great joy in our lives because we have a God who cannot lie. Prediction after prediction has failed to materialize, and false hope after false hope has been foisted upon the Christian community. Jesus once said no man knows the day or hour not even the angels which are in heaven, or the Son, but the Father. (Mark 13:32) There is however a big difference in knowing the [time frame] of His coming then knowing the [day and hour] (Matthew 23:36; 24:34; Revelation 1:3; 22:7,10,12, 20. No were in Scripture did Jesus ever said we would not know after he has returned.

    Many Christians have been so disillusioned by the futurist view they left the faith altogether. Did you know over in Japan in the late 1990,s there was a Japanese minister who predicted the return of the Lord. All of his congregation sold everything they had. The women in his congregation who were having a child had a abortion because they thought the Lord would not take them in that condition. And the secular media (who are always looking for an excuse) to further discredit Christianity are calling Jesus a false prophet and saying he cannot be God. Something is terribly wrong with any traditional views that goes against the clear nature of His return.

    The real key to understang any passage of Scripture has always been a good grasp of the historical setting in which it was originally written. Have you ever wonder why Jesus told [Caiaphas the high priest that (he) would see his return on the clouds of heaven]? (Matthew 26:56-64) Was Jesus telling Caiaphas that he was just a man the Son of Man who would literally return on a cloud.

    Or was Jesus telling Caiaphas that (he was indeed God) Israel's Messiah and (he Caiaphas) would see his return on the coulds invisibly in judgement as seen in his ancient scriptures? Did Caiaphas believe that Jesus was indeed the (God of the Old Testament) Israel's Messiah who rides the clouds as mentioned in (Daniel 7:13-14) According to the inspired Apostle Matthew Caiaphas did not think so.

    Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blassphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! (Matthew 26:65) The Jews sought the more to kill Jesus because he was making himself equal with the God of their ancient scriptures. (John 5:18) Bible prophecy can be understood, but only within the [time frame] and [nature] God ordained and (specifically what it meant to his original audience).
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    You quote this out of context just like you quoted Eph 1:7. The redemption of Eph 1:7 is clearly only a hope for which they had been given an EARNEST until the redemption had come - Eph 1:13-14.

    You read Col 1:13-15 as if Paul hadn't just called it a "hope laid up for them" in Col 1:5 and as if it wasn't conditional on their perseverance (Col 1:23) and also Paul's "filling up the afflictions of Christ in his flesh for the Church" (Col 1:24) which had not been completed. Paul also shows them that in urging them to leave behind the Mosaic Law (which they were still in -- Col 2:20-21), Paul is telling them they what they MUST give up is the shadows of things YET TO COME (Col 2:16-17; compare also with Heb 10:1). Therefore their Law practice of worship in which they were steeped was the shadow of a religious practice without the Law which they had not yet experienced -- it was the "good things to come" that they had not yet hooked on to.

    You continue to ignore (as you do also in Galatians) that Paul is urging them to come out of the practices of the Law for righteousness which they were still practicing (Col 2:20-21). You did ignore this context also in Gal 4:1-5:5 where they CLEARLY had not yet left the Law of Moses! So in both cases Paul is preaching to a people who are steeped in the practice of the Law of Moses for their own righteousness and Paul is URGING THEM TO LEAVE IT. You keep saying that they were NOT in the Law when clearly Paul is telling them that they ARE in the Law (Col 2:20-21) and he is urging them them to leave it for the effectual righteousness by faith in Christ.
     
  19. If you approach the New Testament apocalyptic language with a 20th century understanding. and not recognize it for what it meant to the Jew of the first century who knew the Old Testament (OT) prophecies. your ability to comprehend it will be doomed to what has become traditional confusion. We must keep in mind that Jesus was a Jew who was familiar with Jewish prophetic thought (Matt. 5:17, 13:17; Luke 2:41-47, 24:27).

    In order to understand how the mani- festation of the "Son of man" in the judgment upon Jerusalem was on the "clouds of heaven," one must understand the language of Israel's Old Testament prophets. In biblical language "clouds" are symbolic of God's wrath and judgment against the enemies of God's people. David said that the Lord delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds (Psa. 18:3-15). Of course. clouds also speak of God's divine presence and power.

    The Lord said that He would ride into Egypt on a cloud to punish them: Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt. The idol of Egypt will tremble at His presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. (Isa. 19: 1). In the above verse. the Lord did NOT literally ride on a cloud. However. Egypt did receive this judgment at the hands of the Assyrians (Isa. 20:1-6) . When God used the means of a nation or people to carry out a judgment. He was said to come on the clouds.

    This apocalyptic language was well known to all in the Jewish and early Christian communities. This language was studied by all the congregation of Israel on the Sabbath in the synagogue. It was spoken in homes and by the rulers of Israel. This is the reason Jesus chose to use apocalyptic language as He described His SOON return to the people of His day. Jesus promised the High Priest. Caiaphas. that he would "see the Son of man... coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 26:63-65). By this statement Jesus was claiming to be divine, Israel's Messiah, and the Son of God.

    This is how Israel's prophets had said the Son of Man would come in the clouds of heaven (Dan. 7:13-14). Caiaphas knew that the language that Jesus used meant that he, as a ruler of Israel and as the fleshly seed of Abraham who rejected his Messiah, would SEE His return in judgment.

    A fleshly concept of Jesus coming on the clouds was contrary to the nature of Caiaphas' understanding of the OT prophets. The Old Testament idea of the "day of the Lord" was that God acted by means of armies or a nation to judge His enemies (Luke 11:29-32, 19:43-44). The "day of the Lord" was tumultuous. frightening, and awesome--but God did NOT appear visibly. Only the God of Israel could ride the clouds of heaven in judgment (Psa. 104:1-3. Isa. 19:1-3. Joel 2:1-2, Nah. 1-3. Zeph. 1:14-15). This fact was well known to every Jew.

    The inspired apostle John stated that the Jews sought the more to kill Jesus because He was making himself equal to God (Jn 5:18, 8:58). These events of God coming in the clouds of heaven for judgment were contained in the ancient scrolls which comforted the early followers of Christ while then, waited for His return in judgment against their enemies (2Thes. 1:3-8).

    The Bible says that Jesus is the same yesterday. today and forever (Heb. 13:8). Paul stated that he only said what the prophets and Moses said would take place (Acts 26:21-22). Although futurists today claim that verses such as Acts 1:9-11 predict events in our future. the angels said Jesus would return in the same manner (nature) as He appeared in the Old Testament, that is. in the clouds. David described his deliverance from his enemies in terms which sounded as if the physical universe was destroyed when Jehovah came down from heaven ( 2 Sam. 22)

    The "day of the Lord" in the Old Covenant did not destroy planet earth, nor did it end time forever, nor would it do so under the New Covenant (compare Isa. 45:17 and Eph. 3:21). In the Old Covenant. governments and nations were destroyed during the "day of the Lord" because they were enemies of God or because they came up against His chosen people. In the first century in 70 A.D.. the Jewish world was destroyed during the "day of the Lord" because of their inability to accept the prophets of God and the Son of God (Matt.23:34-36).

    The destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. put an end to the Old Covenant. In its place. the New Covenant which began at the Last Supper came into its fullness. The second and final coming of Christ occurred in 70 A.D as Jesus invisibly and spiritually came on the clouds of heaven to judge His enemies and establish His everlasting kingdom.
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    HANK HANEGRAAFF ON MATTHEW 24:34

    The futurist will say when they read this text, "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened," they'll say this generation doesn't mean THIS generation, this generation means THAT generation that's alive when Jesus Christ comes again. Which is highly problematic ... Jewish skeptics and people who would want to call Jesus into question as being a true prophet will use this very text and say THIS generation cannot mean anything other than the generation to whom Jesus Christ was speaking. So people that want to make 'this generation' anything other than the generation to whom Jesus Christ was speaking have the onus on them to be able to demonstrate that the grammatical construction here [in Matt 24:34], although the same as elsewhere in Matthew, means something different. ... Jesus, if he were speaking of future generations, would have said THAT, not this, generation, becasuse he would be using the same kind of construction that he used earlier in the text I just cited [citation of Matt 12:41 given by Hanegraaff].

    --from Bible Answerman Transcript -- 12/2001
     
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