• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

  1. Invalid

  2. Valid

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

    312
    +1
    Honestly guys, my take on it is this (in regards to preterists interrupting and ruining threads):

    (I say this in a non-hateful way)

    My understanding of Biblical end-times prophecy is a great encouragement to me (even though I sometimes disagree with some of the specifics that people come up with regarding prophecy). I love to study it, think about it, talk about it with others, etc. It gives me GREAT excitement and hope when I see things happening globally that point to the immenent return of Christ (not the suffering that is happening, but the overall picture). It makes me want to be more active for the Lord and more alert to people around me (Some would rebuke me and say I should be alert and active regardless - but for centuries, the thought that Jesus could soon return has been a HUGE motivator for people so I don't apologize).

    Here's where I have no intention of coming across in a hateful way:
    When someone with one set of beliefs begins to question almost EVERY thread that opposes their beliefs, it really does break the flow and causes strife.

    I want to be able to talk about the future with my brothers and sisters without getting off-topic. I don't mind you guys (preterists) posting your views (not that what I mind or don't mind matters - who am I?):) but I guess it would be better if they weren't a part of ALMOST every new thread. I believe you are my brothers and sisters, but it's a hard thing to overcome when there are such vast differences in what we believe, thus all the name-calling, sarcasm, etc. This is a hot-point for a lot of people (heh, me included) because it is such a great source of hope, and what we KNOW to be true.

    Anyway, I don't know if I made any earth-shattering point there, but that's my take...
     
  2. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    John, the key to understanding that PARABLE is found in the ONLY part that you actually quoted:

    "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."

    The rest of what you said was your "interpretation" -turning Jesus' parable into an "allegory". This is a fatal mistake which grossly detracts from what Jesus was saying -which was summed up in the quote you made [Be Watchful, Be Ready]. Parables are to be taken as a "WHOLE" and NOT divided up and parts thereof given totally separate meanings etc. Jesus speaking to His people was saying "Be Prepared".

    Once you start doing as you have done, argument arises as to what "this or that" supposed given symbol means [you take the message as a whole], all you need to look for is Jesus' explantation of it -don't give it one it does not have. In this instance, look to your quote for the truth.

    davo
     
  3. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

    312
    +1
    I posted this in another thread and given all the apparent hostility thought it might be worth it's own thread (from an explanatory viewpoint). If not, sorry about the presumption!

    (I say this in a non-hateful way)

    My understanding of Biblical end-times prophecy is a great encouragement to me (even though I sometimes disagree with some of the specifics that people come up with regarding prophecy). I love to study it, think about it, talk about it with others, etc. It gives me GREAT excitement and hope when I see things happening globally that point to the immenent return of Christ (not the suffering that is happening, but the overall picture). It makes me want to be more active for the Lord and more alert to people around me (Some would rebuke me and say I should be alert and active regardless - but for centuries, the thought that Jesus could soon return has been a HUGE motivator for people so I don't apologize).

    Here's where I have no intention of coming across in a hateful way:
    When someone with one set of beliefs begins to question almost EVERY thread that opposes their beliefs, it really does break the flow and causes strife.

    I want to be able to talk about the future with my brothers and sisters without getting off-topic. I don't mind you guys (preterists) posting your views (not that what I mind or don't mind matters - who am I?):) but I guess it would be better if they weren't a part of ALMOST every new thread. I believe you are my brothers and sisters, but it's a hard thing to overcome when there are such vast differences in what we believe, thus all the name-calling, sarcasm, etc. This is a hot-point for a lot of people (heh, me included) because it is such a great source of hope, and what we KNOW to be true.

    Anyway, I don't know if I made any earth-shattering point there, but that's my take...
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Josiah,

    I first want to agree with your apparent hope that we can agree to disagree and respect each other's threads. I believe there are ways to do this and we all can go for it.

    Next, I want to say that I'm a Larry-Boy fan since I have a young daughter who loves Veggie-Tales. She even saw the live production. She'd love your avitar.


    Now, I do want to ask you for more info on what you mean by this:

    "but for centuries, the thought that Jesus could soon return has been a HUGE motivator for people so I don't apologize"


    I have to ask: Do you know the history of endtimes in the Church? It has been a disaster. Endtimes movements in Church history have produced the following fruit:

    * Endless false testimony from the Church about world events, movements, governments, and leaders

    * Wars (from the Munster revolt to Hitler)

    * Mass suicides (Jonestown; 20-30,000 Russian Orthodox Church members--"the Old Believers"--burned themselves to death while under impression the endtimes had come)

    * Heresies (JWs, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons are all endtimes movements that were birthed out of mainstream endtimes hysterias started by legitimate Protestant denominations in the early and mid 1800s!) Why do you suppose they call themselves the "Latter Day Saints"?

    * Waco/Hal Lindsey's 1980s error/Heaven's Gate

    ...and much much more.



    I recommend two very important resources on this:

    The Last Days Are Here Again
    by Richard Kyle

    Baker Books
    --200-page history of endtimes in Church history

    Apocalypse!
    a Frontline Video

    --the evolution of apocalyptic belief and how it shaped the Western world


    I don't think anyone who truly knows the history of endtimes in the Church could agree with the statement you made.

    Respectfully,
    GW
     
  5. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hiya P70. It doesn't exist today. I often challenge futurists to find one jew on the planet that observes the Law of Moses. It's impossible. There isn't one. That's because there is no Law System extant anywhere on the planet to accommodate or demand observance. It went up in smoke at AD 70.

    Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses consists in Temple practices/rituals/Levitical duties. The Law of Moses does not consist in reading a book. It consists in strict OBSERVANCE. There is no way to observe the Law of Moses and hasn't been since AD 70.


    Right on. We are back at that stage today AFTER the Law ran its course from Moses to Christ. The Law was a "parenthesis" in redemptive history to increase transgressions and condemn all as guilty while pointing to a savior (Gal 3:19; Rom 3:19; 7:5,13).

    And not only has it been declared obsolete, it has VANISHED (Heb 8:13). Poof! Gone.

    Hebrews 10:9 says he "violently removes the first that he may establish the second" ("anaireo" = to murder, slay, put to death, violently remove).


    Great clarity. Bravo.


    To the believer, yes. While Abraham had the same faith as we, he did not have a removal of sin applied to him until AD 70 -- whereupon he was immediately raised from Hades into Heaven's Holy Temple. Today's believers have the same faith as Abraham (who was pre-jewish, BTW), but we ALSO have been fully atoned for and sin is not imputed to us as Christ has taken it away from us (Heb 10:11-18). We never experience separation from God. Never.
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    I did not "mess up." In greek, the "-oi" is a plural of something. [thousands]

    The many/the masses is:

    hoi polloi

    and is the plural form of the singluar "polus." What makes polus into a plural is the suffix "OI." Same is true with:

    CHILI-OI


    The "oi" at the end makes the word a plural form, whereas chilias is ONE thousand even (Strongs# 5505). Adding the "oi" makes this (chili-) a plural, which does NOT have to mean 1000 on the nose. The best english translation of CHILIOI is "thousands."
     
  7. aChristian

    aChristian Member

    128
    +0
    So, in your opinion, the thousand year reign of Christ has been going on for nearly 2,000 years? I agree Christ began ruling over his church nearly 2,000 yaers ago. But most understand Christ's 1,000 year reign to be a time when His rule is extended over all the earth.

    What do you believe the future holds? Will this world go on as it is forever? Or will Christianity eventually conquer the world with its good ushering in an era of true peace?

    When will the parables be fulfilled, like the one telling of a time when the weeds will be removed from the field of wheat and thrown into a fire, and the one where the bad fish are taken out of the net and thrown away?

    Did all such prophecies point to AD 70 or to a time following our deaths? Do you believe that Christ will never again intervene in human affairs? If so, why?

    Why do you reject the notion that Jerusalem's destuction in AD 70 was only meant to serve as a small scale picture of a larger judgment to come?
     
  8. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    You are a Child of God, Josiah! :) :)

    I very much liked reading your post. I liked what you had to say. Thanks! :)
     
  9. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    Are you watching davo? Are you ready for Jesus' return?
     
  10. Tristan

    Tristan Chilling out

    68
    +0
    Hi,

    As far as I can gather from this thread, you think that all end time prophesy has been fulfilled, so I was just wondering what full preterists think of these scriptures:

    Rev 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

    First of all, this speaks of a new earth, and the old one 'passing away'...this has not happened. This prophesy also speaks of there being no more sea - but there is still sea on the earth.

    Rev 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

    This scripture speaks of there being no more death, sorrow, crying or pain. This again, has not been fulfilled.

    How does this fit in with your philosophy?

    God bless,

    Tris
     
  11. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0

    LOL!! you still playing cover up?

    trying to say chilioi is BEST translated as thousands is foolishness GW otherwise...

    dischilioi would be "twothousands "
    trischilioi would be "threethousands "

    actually "thousands " with the meaning your looking for is the word "murias" (strong's 3461)
    meaning
    1.ten thousand
    2.an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number
    3.innumerable hosts

    "chilias" is a NOUN
    "Chilioi" is a Adjective

    it would have been grammatically incorrect to use the noun "chilias" in connection with "etos"(year) which is also a noun. the proper word "chilioi" which is an Adjective was correctly used with the noun "Etos"

    :D man i have been up way past my bedtime!! goodnight!

    BTW GW can you show me a LITERAL translation that has the phrase "thousand years" replaced by "thousands of years" and post it here with the name of the publisher?
     
  12. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Hi everyone,
    With the pre/post discussions that seem to be going on, they seem to be upsetting the pre believers that have automatically claimed that this is there forum and that they are the majority?????

    How come, when there are 50 % of post believers hear too???

    Who owns the forum to claim which side has the rights and which side is in the wrong???

    Chaos does???

    The post believers seem to be able to handle the pressure of the challenges of finding the truth in the bible while the pre believers are running for cover and looking for ignore buttons.

    Yea, this is the Christianity I know :clap: :D

    I am new hear and don’t know what I believe any more (hence, my name) but I can see that every thing is running as normal in Christianity.:D

    As for pre/post.

    Guys, neither side has a clue what the real truth is so why not try understanding each other at least and then you can get along better and look like the church that Jesus would want to come back for.

    jeopardy
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    The preterist will simply spiritualise away these verses to suit there erroneous doctrine!
     
  14. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

    +120
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Democrat
    Yeah. I still cry :cry:
    So I do not think those verses have been fulfilled yet.
    Preterism is a deception.
     
  15. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    But that is the real basis of the confusion. It isn't a disagreement between the pre-tribbers and post-tribbers, it is about whether Jesus is coming back, or whether he CAME back.
     
  16. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    Josiah,

    I agree with your opinions and general futuristic approach to prophecy, however, I can't lay the entire blame for threads going haywire at the door of the preterists. I personally share some of that blame in that I allowed myself to respond to posts which digressed from the main thrust of the thread. After recognizing my own guilt in the matter I determined NOT to respond to preterist points except on those threads where the preterist ideas were already in heated debate. I believe if we all refuse to discuss preterism vs futurism except on those threads established for that purpose the problem will resolve itself.
     
  17. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Hi again Willis,
    What I meant by post/pre beliefs was a little broader than just that one issue.

    I am more referring to most of the bible prophesies, not just the second coming but also all of the other beliefs about Daniel 7 and 9 being past or future and also the issues of Jerusalem in 70 ad and matt 24 and revelations.

    Personally, I think allot of prophesy has it’s fulfilment in the past but I wouldn’t go as far as saying the second coming has occurred.

    So, pre/post means;

    Pre prophesy (prophesies are still in the future and haven’t happened yet in general.)

    Post prophesy (most of the bible prophesies are in our history already and not the future.)

    Those that believe that Jesus has already come would be in the post section.


    :idea:
    So, now I have established this;

    Who is post and who is pre???? And to what extent???

    Lets see the true ratios.

    Anyone like to label him or herself for the vote.

    If there is enough I will continue a true poll in another thread once others understand the direction this thread could take.

    Can we get order from chaos???? :pray:

    I would be in the post prophecy camp for the most part but I await the return of Jesus and the resurrection (both of them) and the 1000 yrs of peace.

    But I would be a post believer because I believe most everything else is past or has been happening for 2000 yrs.

    But hay, that’s just what I believe, that doesn’t make it true though so lets see who stands were and to what point.

    What about you Willis, were do you stand??? Can this help to bring order or should we settle for division???

    What are your thoughts

    Chaos :)
     
  18. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    From what I've seen I am possibly a 'heretic' who is both a post and a pre. Just as God authored OT prophecy so that it had relevance in the time of the prophecy and ALSO point to the coming Messiah, I also believe He has authored prophecy so that it had relevance to 70AD, the entire period from then to now, and complete fulfillment at the second coming. When studying endtimes I pay no attention to what has supposedly been fulfilled but consider prophecy to have the possibility to have a future fulfillment.
     
  19. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    actualy , I have heard that before and I think alot of people believe that too.

    how could anyone point out a heratic considering everyone believes diffrently?? alot throw the heratic trip around though hay :)

    considering the bible is from 2 to 3 thousand yrs old wouldn`t it be wise to consider history when looking at prophesy??
    espesialy the history that came after these prophesys which would be the last 2000 yrs.

    can someone truly work a prophesy out without a thorough study of history first??/

    how would you know that it hadn`t happened yet otherwise?
     
  20. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    That is the beauty of multiple fulfillment, it doesn't matter what has already been fulfilled because that isn't part of the equation.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...