Futurists vs Preterists

[Josiah]

Honestly guys, my take on it is this (in regards to preterists interrupting and ruining threads):

(I say this in a non-hateful way)

My understanding of Biblical end-times prophecy is a great encouragement to me (even though I sometimes disagree with some of the specifics that people come up with regarding prophecy). I love to study it, think about it, talk about it with others, etc. It gives me GREAT excitement and hope when I see things happening globally that point to the immenent return of Christ (not the suffering that is happening, but the overall picture). It makes me want to be more active for the Lord and more alert to people around me (Some would rebuke me and say I should be alert and active regardless - but for centuries, the thought that Jesus could soon return has been a HUGE motivator for people so I don't apologize).

Here's where I have no intention of coming across in a hateful way:
When someone with one set of beliefs begins to question almost EVERY thread that opposes their beliefs, it really does break the flow and causes strife.

I want to be able to talk about the future with my brothers and sisters without getting off-topic. I don't mind you guys (preterists) posting your views (not that what I mind or don't mind matters - who am I?) but I guess it would be better if they weren't a part of ALMOST every new thread. I believe you are my brothers and sisters, but it's a hard thing to overcome when there are such vast differences in what we believe, thus all the name-calling, sarcasm, etc. This is a hot-point for a lot of people (heh, me included) because it is such a great source of hope, and what we KNOW to be true.

Anyway, I don't know if I made any earth-shattering point there, but that's my take...

 

[davo]

John, the key to understanding that PARABLE is found in the ONLY part that you actually quoted:

"Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."

The rest of what you said was your "interpretation" -turning Jesus' parable into an "allegory". This is a fatal mistake which grossly detracts from what Jesus was saying -which was summed up in the quote you made [Be Watchful, Be Ready]. Parables are to be taken as a "WHOLE" and NOT divided up and parts thereof given totally separate meanings etc. Jesus speaking to His people was saying "Be Prepared".

Once you start doing as you have done, argument arises as to what "this or that" supposed given symbol means [you take the message as a whole], all you need to look for is Jesus' explantation of it -don't give it one it does not have. In this instance, look to your quote for the truth.

davo

 

[Josiah]

I posted this in another thread and given all the apparent hostility thought it might be worth it's own thread (from an explanatory viewpoint). If not, sorry about the presumption!

(I say this in a non-hateful way)

My understanding of Biblical end-times prophecy is a great encouragement to me (even though I sometimes disagree with some of the specifics that people come up with regarding prophecy). I love to study it, think about it, talk about it with others, etc. It gives me GREAT excitement and hope when I see things happening globally that point to the immenent return of Christ (not the suffering that is happening, but the overall picture). It makes me want to be more active for the Lord and more alert to people around me (Some would rebuke me and say I should be alert and active regardless - but for centuries, the thought that Jesus could soon return has been a HUGE motivator for people so I don't apologize).

Here's where I have no intention of coming across in a hateful way:
When someone with one set of beliefs begins to question almost EVERY thread that opposes their beliefs, it really does break the flow and causes strife.

I want to be able to talk about the future with my brothers and sisters without getting off-topic. I don't mind you guys (preterists) posting your views (not that what I mind or don't mind matters - who am I?) but I guess it would be better if they weren't a part of ALMOST every new thread. I believe you are my brothers and sisters, but it's a hard thing to overcome when there are such vast differences in what we believe, thus all the name-calling, sarcasm, etc. This is a hot-point for a lot of people (heh, me included) because it is such a great source of hope, and what we KNOW to be true.

Anyway, I don't know if I made any earth-shattering point there, but that's my take...

 

[GW]

Josiah,

I first want to agree with your apparent hope that we can agree to disagree and respect each other's threads. I believe there are ways to do this and we all can go for it.

Next, I want to say that I'm a Larry-Boy fan since I have a young daughter who loves Veggie-Tales. She even saw the live production. She'd love your avitar.


Now, I do want to ask you for more info on what you mean by this:

"but for centuries, the thought that Jesus could soon return has been a HUGE motivator for people so I don't apologize"


I have to ask: Do you know the history of endtimes in the Church? It has been a disaster. Endtimes movements in Church history have produced the following fruit:

* Endless false testimony from the Church about world events, movements, governments, and leaders

* Wars (from the Munster revolt to Hitler)

* Mass suicides (Jonestown; 20-30,000 Russian Orthodox Church members--"the Old Believers"--burned themselves to death while under impression the endtimes had come)

* Heresies (JWs, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons are all endtimes movements that were birthed out of mainstream endtimes hysterias started by legitimate Protestant denominations in the early and mid 1800s!) Why do you suppose they call themselves the "Latter Day Saints"?

* Waco/Hal Lindsey's 1980s error/Heaven's Gate

...and much much more.



I recommend two very important resources on this:

The Last Days Are Here Again
by Richard Kyle
Baker Books
--200-page history of endtimes in Church history

Apocalypse!
a Frontline Video
--the evolution of apocalyptic belief and how it shaped the Western world


I don't think anyone who truly knows the history of endtimes in the Church could agree with the statement you made.

Respectfully,
GW

 

[GW]

Originally posted by parousia70
If the law does in fact still exist today, then it exists only for Jews.

Hiya P70. It doesn't exist today. I often challenge futurists to find one jew on the planet that observes the Law of Moses. It's impossible. There isn't one. That's because there is no Law System extant anywhere on the planet to accommodate or demand observance. It went up in smoke at AD 70.

Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses consists in Temple practices/rituals/Levitical duties. The Law of Moses does not consist in reading a book. It consists in strict OBSERVANCE. There is no way to observe the Law of Moses and hasn't been since AD 70.

Originally posted by parousia70
Romans 5 shows us how sin was in the world before the law but was "not imputed" against man. No one was saved whether they sinned or not. Before the Law, sin was not used as a measuring stick for salvation.

Right on. We are back at that stage today AFTER the Law ran its course from Moses to Christ. The Law was a "parenthesis" in redemptive history to increase transgressions and condemn all as guilty while pointing to a savior (Gal 3:19; Rom 3:19; 7:5,13).

Originally posted by parousia70
Now, with the fulfillment of the Law, and since it has once for all time been declared "obsolete" By God, Sin is once again "not imputed" against man.

And not only has it been declared obsolete, it has VANISHED (Heb 8:13). Poof! Gone.

Hebrews 10:9 says he "violently removes the first that he may establish the second" ("anaireo" = to murder, slay, put to death, violently remove).

Originally posted by parousia70
We either choose to remain "in adam" in which case we are already condemned whether we sin or not, or we can choose to enter "in Christ" in which case we are saved even though we sin.

Great clarity. Bravo.

Originally posted by parousia70
Sin has been forever removed as the criteria by which God determines salvation.
Sin can no longer keep man from God. Sin has been forever stripped of It's power. Sin is dead.

To the believer, yes. While Abraham had the same faith as we, he did not have a removal of sin applied to him until AD 70 -- whereupon he was immediately raised from Hades into Heaven's Holy Temple. Today's believers have the same faith as Abraham (who was pre-jewish, BTW), but we ALSO have been fully atoned for and sin is not imputed to us as Christ has taken it away from us (Heb 10:11-18). We never experience separation from God. Never.

 

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
that is not what the strong's says...it says "thousand" no "s" it does not give any other definition.

i think where you messed up was thinking ONE thousand was singular..

I did not "mess up." In greek, the "-oi" is a plural of something. [thousands]

The many/the masses is:

hoi polloi

and is the plural form of the singluar "polus." What makes polus into a plural is the suffix "OI." Same is true with:

CHILI-OI

The "oi" at the end makes the word a plural form, whereas chilias is ONE thousand even (Strongs# 5505). Adding the "oi" makes this (chili-) a plural, which does NOT have to mean 1000 on the nose. The best english translation of CHILIOI is "thousands."

 

[aChristian]

So, in your opinion, the thousand year reign of Christ has been going on for nearly 2,000 years? I agree Christ began ruling over his church nearly 2,000 yaers ago. But most understand Christ's 1,000 year reign to be a time when His rule is extended over all the earth.

What do you believe the future holds? Will this world go on as it is forever? Or will Christianity eventually conquer the world with its good ushering in an era of true peace?

When will the parables be fulfilled, like the one telling of a time when the weeds will be removed from the field of wheat and thrown into a fire, and the one where the bad fish are taken out of the net and thrown away?

Did all such prophecies point to AD 70 or to a time following our deaths? Do you believe that Christ will never again intervene in human affairs? If so, why?

Why do you reject the notion that Jerusalem's destuction in AD 70 was only meant to serve as a small scale picture of a larger judgment to come?

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by Josiah
(not that what I mind or don't mind matters - who am I?)

You are a Child of God, Josiah!

I very much liked reading your post. I liked what you had to say. Thanks!

 

[Auntie]

Are you watching davo? Are you ready for Jesus' return?

 

[Tristan]

Hi,

As far as I can gather from this thread, you think that all end time prophesy has been fulfilled, so I was just wondering what full preterists think of these scriptures:

Rev 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

First of all, this speaks of a new earth, and the old one 'passing away'...this has not happened. This prophesy also speaks of there being no more sea - but there is still sea on the earth.

Rev 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

This scripture speaks of there being no more death, sorrow, crying or pain. This again, has not been fulfilled.

How does this fit in with your philosophy?

God bless,

Tris

 

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by GW
I did not "mess up." In greek, the "-oi" is a plural of something. [thousands]

The many/the masses is:

hoi polloi

and is the plural form of the singluar "polus." What makes polus into a plural is the suffix "OI." Same is true with:

CHILI-OI

The "oi" at the end makes the word a plural form, whereas chilias is ONE thousand even (Strongs# 5505). Adding the "oi" makes this (chili-) a plural, which does NOT have to mean 1000 on the nose. The best english translation of CHILIOI is "thousands."

LOL!! you still playing cover up?

trying to say chilioi is BEST translated as thousands is foolishness GW otherwise...

dischilioi would be "twothousands "
trischilioi would be "threethousands "

actually "thousands " with the meaning your looking for is the word "murias" (strong's 3461)
meaning
1.ten thousand
2.an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number
3.innumerable hosts

"chilias" is a NOUN
"Chilioi" is a Adjective

it would have been grammatically incorrect to use the noun "chilias" in connection with "etos"(year) which is also a noun. the proper word "chilioi" which is an Adjective was correctly used with the noun "Etos"

man i have been up way past my bedtime!! goodnight!

BTW GW can you show me a LITERAL translation that has the phrase "thousand years" replaced by "thousands of years" and post it here with the name of the publisher?

 

[BULWARK]

Hi everyone,
With the pre/post discussions that seem to be going on, they seem to be upsetting the pre believers that have automatically claimed that this is there forum and that they are the majority?????

How come, when there are 50 % of post believers hear too???

Who owns the forum to claim which side has the rights and which side is in the wrong???

Chaos does???

The post believers seem to be able to handle the pressure of the challenges of finding the truth in the bible while the pre believers are running for cover and looking for ignore buttons.

Yea, this is the Christianity I know

I am new hear and don’t know what I believe any more (hence, my name) but I can see that every thing is running as normal in Christianity.

As for pre/post.

Guys, neither side has a clue what the real truth is so why not try understanding each other at least and then you can get along better and look like the church that Jesus would want to come back for.

jeopardy

 

[Andrew]

The preterist will simply spiritualise away these verses to suit there erroneous doctrine!

 

[Susan]

Yeah. I still cry
So I do not think those verses have been fulfilled yet.
Preterism is a deception.

 

[Willis Deal]

But that is the real basis of the confusion. It isn't a disagreement between the pre-tribbers and post-tribbers, it is about whether Jesus is coming back, or whether he CAME back.

 

[Willis Deal]

Josiah,

I agree with your opinions and general futuristic approach to prophecy, however, I can't lay the entire blame for threads going haywire at the door of the preterists. I personally share some of that blame in that I allowed myself to respond to posts which digressed from the main thrust of the thread. After recognizing my own guilt in the matter I determined NOT to respond to preterist points except on those threads where the preterist ideas were already in heated debate. I believe if we all refuse to discuss preterism vs futurism except on those threads established for that purpose the problem will resolve itself.

 

[BULWARK]

Hi again Willis,
What I meant by post/pre beliefs was a little broader than just that one issue.

I am more referring to most of the bible prophesies, not just the second coming but also all of the other beliefs about Daniel 7 and 9 being past or future and also the issues of Jerusalem in 70 ad and matt 24 and revelations.

Personally, I think allot of prophesy has it’s fulfilment in the past but I wouldn’t go as far as saying the second coming has occurred.

So, pre/post means;

Pre prophesy (prophesies are still in the future and haven’t happened yet in general.)

Post prophesy (most of the bible prophesies are in our history already and not the future.)

Those that believe that Jesus has already come would be in the post section.



So, now I have established this;

Who is post and who is pre???? And to what extent???

Lets see the true ratios.

Anyone like to label him or herself for the vote.

If there is enough I will continue a true poll in another thread once others understand the direction this thread could take.

Can we get order from chaos????

I would be in the post prophecy camp for the most part but I await the return of Jesus and the resurrection (both of them) and the 1000 yrs of peace.

But I would be a post believer because I believe most everything else is past or has been happening for 2000 yrs.

But hay, that’s just what I believe, that doesn’t make it true though so lets see who stands were and to what point.

What about you Willis, were do you stand??? Can this help to bring order or should we settle for division???

What are your thoughts

Chaos

 

[Willis Deal]

From what I've seen I am possibly a 'heretic' who is both a post and a pre. Just as God authored OT prophecy so that it had relevance in the time of the prophecy and ALSO point to the coming Messiah, I also believe He has authored prophecy so that it had relevance to 70AD, the entire period from then to now, and complete fulfillment at the second coming. When studying endtimes I pay no attention to what has supposedly been fulfilled but consider prophecy to have the possibility to have a future fulfillment.

 

[BULWARK]

actualy , I have heard that before and I think alot of people believe that too.

how could anyone point out a heratic considering everyone believes diffrently?? alot throw the heratic trip around though hay

When studying endtimes I pay no attention to what has supposedly been fulfilled but consider prophecy to have the possibility to have a future fulfillment.

considering the bible is from 2 to 3 thousand yrs old wouldn`t it be wise to consider history when looking at prophesy??
espesialy the history that came after these prophesys which would be the last 2000 yrs.

can someone truly work a prophesy out without a thorough study of history first??/

how would you know that it hadn`t happened yet otherwise?

 

[Willis Deal]

That is the beauty of multiple fulfillment, it doesn't matter what has already been fulfilled because that isn't part of the equation.