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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Premillennialism,

    My view, the 'pre' meaning 'before', and 'millennial' meaning 'thousand' as in 'thousand year reign of Christ'. So I believe the thousand year reign of Christ is yet future. Within this catagory there are four subsets: Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation, Post-tribulation, and Pan-tribulation. These refer to the event known as the 'rapture', when the dead are resurrected and the living righteous ascend into the clouds to meet Jesus. Pre-trib holds that the event occurs before the great tribulation (my view). Mid-trib believes the event occurs in the middle of the tribulation, Post-trib after the tribulation, Pan-trib is clueless and believes it will all 'pan out'. Of course there is still much disagreement on other issues, such as will people be saved during the tribulation, etc.

    Hope this helps.
     
  2. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    As far as my church and I are concerned Preterism is the worst mumbo jumbo I've ever heard! And I make no apologies for saying that!
     
  3. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

    +120
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    Amen to that!
    Especially full preterism that claims Jesus returned in AD 70. That is a heresy that Paul himself rebuked!
     
  4. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,627
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    I have added a "Valid" selection to make the poll more honest. ;)

    John
     
  5. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

    312
    +1
    I - N - S - A - N - E

    It's pointless to argue with the "preterists" (if that's what they like to be called). :(
     
  6. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

    312
    +1
    This is a legitimate question because I honestly don't know where you stand on this. This may have been covered in previous posts but I've not come accross it. Here it is:

    What happens, according to the preterists understanding, when you die?

    Are you guys saying that the Earth is presently as good as it gets (which is pretty wonderful from what I understand of your beliefs) but heaven (and being face-to-face with the LORD) is still to come for those who die?

    Thank you in advance for not answering in sarcasm.

    By the way, is there a particular "denomination" that the preterist belongs to or are those beliefs found in many denominations?

    My background is the Church of Christ (I've since come to believe differently - and I believe it is God that has led me) and they hold pretty closely to the teachings you guys espouse. They say that all prophecy has been fulfilled and that we're just waiting for Christ to come and destroy the world and take Christians to heaven (although many if not all I've known wouldn't know a preterist from a tsireterp). They don't, however, believe that Christ came back (again) years ago (in early AD).

    It's amazing how many different views there are out there and every one believes he is right...sheesh.
     
  7. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    917
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    Bear: The option you have added is not honest. Valid is a lie! :(

    To those of you who skim and do not read long post... I have encoded a message. Read the bold words!

    I have tried to delete my original post starting this thread, believing that would erase the entire thread. I was not allowed to do so.I do not want to be involved in starting a thread that contains such a lie against our Lord.

    I am finished posting on this thread. To all my friends who did not understand I have not turned away from wisdom to accept the perterist views. These people are attempting to destroy from the inside. Atheist are more honest.

    The perterist have came here only to disrupt and destroy. GW...Davo...Parousia have no other interest in our forum.
    They have posted on no other threads other than the futurist. They have never posted on the prayer request... workshop... roundtable... or any other discussions. They have brought with them nothing but discord! I had thought the ignore button would prevent us from hearing them in other discussions. I had thought this would be a loss, that I was not willing to accept. But after reviewing their profiles and searching their previous post, I found this not to be true. They have no use for us other than imposing their own views over and over again.

    Please join with me to clean up our "End of Times" forum of these pests.

    Sorry Davo... Sorry GW.... Sorry Parousia70.. :sorry:

    You will never leave and neither will I. Ignore is the only option. So to prevent you from preaching your false teachings on my computer.... You are at this point vanished from my sight. Push the ignore button! :wave: LOVE
     
  8. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Standing with Jesus means ignoring your false man made views.

    IGNORE!!
     
  9. Tristan

    Tristan Chilling out

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    Hi All,

    When I looked up what a perterist was, the main thing I remember it saying about them is that they believe that all prophesy in the bible has been fulfilled (i.e. Jesus' return etc...)

    Is this correct?

    If so, I must agree that their world view is a little bit skee-wiff, and does not match up with scripture.

    e.g.
    Rev 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

    I do believe that I have been in sorrow, I've cried, and I've had pain. Therefore this is not fulfilled.

    Or am I wrong about perterists believing that all prophesy has been fulfilled?

    God bless,

    Tris
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    C'mon. Job's faith against all evidence to the contrary was that he would not die but, rather, be vindicated by God -- which he was, exactly as his faith believed (Job 42:5-10).

    Job's skin was destroyed by his boils from satan that covered his body from head to toe (Job 2:7) and at the end Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped and promised would happen (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5). His vindicator (Go-el) came and vindicated Job's cause (Job 42:7-10).

    You'd be hard pressed to find a scholarly commentary to interpret Job 19:25-27 in any other way. Job was clearly referring to his plight and how he was full of faith that God would not abandon him to die but would show up at the end and vindicate him. It all happened exactly like Job said.
     
  11. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    The subtle inference is this, and I'll ask it point blank:

    If all those good things are in you and other Christians (as you say), then don't you believe that this by necessity will improve your family, your work, your neighborhood, your city, and your country, and your world?

    I look forward to your answer.



    Job's hope and faith was that God would indeed appear at the end and vindicate him, which is exactly how the story ends.

    Go'el is not one who redeems one from their sins, but is one who vindicates one's case. Job knew that his case was correct and that his friends were wrong. He knew that he would be vindicated, and in the end God arises upon the dust and does exactly that.

    Job's hope was for a day within his lifetime when God would vindicate and deliver him (Job 10:9; 23:10; 17:9; 23:10; 19:25-27). Although he could not know for certain what would happen until God shows up, he believed by faith that even once the burning boils had struck off his skin he would see his vindicator with his eyes and be vindicated. This, of course, is exactly what happened.

    Job's skin was destroyed by his boils from satan that covered his body from head to toe (Job 2:7; 30:30) and at the end Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped and promised would happen (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5). His vindicator (Go-el) came and vindicated Job's cause (Job 42:7-10).

    You'd be hard pressed to find a scholarly commentary to interpret Job 19:25-27 in any other way. Job was clearly referring to his plight and how he was full of faith that God would not abandon him to die but would show up at the end and vindicate him. It all happened exactly like Job said.
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    The preterist view obviously was given to us by Jesus and the apostles that all agree that the second coming would occur within their lifetimes in their generation (Matt 24:33-34; Matt 10:22-23; John 21:21-22; Matt 16:27-28; Heb 10:37; Rev; 1:1, 1:3; 3:1-3; Rev 2:20-25; Matt 21:40-45). Jesus made a promise to the apostles, saying:

    Matthew 24:33-24
    So, YOU too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say TO YOU, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


    They boldly proclaimed that they were in the last days generation (Heb 1:1-2; Acts 2:15-17; James 5:3; 1 Peter 1:20; 1 Cor 10:11).

    Acts 2:15-17
    these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day -- but THIS IS THAT which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel: And it shall be IN THE LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh

    So we see that the last days, according to Peter, were to be the days when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon His people (1st century).


    Christ and his apostles could not err on this most important teaching. If they were in error then Christ becomes a false prophet and our faith is in vain.

    Next, one also can see that the Church has interpreted Matthew 24 as fulfilled or mostly fulfilled all down through the Church's history even to this day.

    So, the preterist view ain't no "mumbo jumbo." In fact, interpreting Matthew 24 as all in the future is foreign to the bible and to Church history until the 1800s. The commentaries by the reformers on Matthew 24 placed most or all of Matt 24 in the past.
     
  13. Tristan

    Tristan Chilling out

    68
    +0
    Manifestation,

    Willis Deal makes a good point. I'd like to add to it...

    Gen 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

    The word 'die' here is mistranslated. In the original hebrew, the word (in it's correct context) means 'dying you shall die'. This is added as a footnote in my bible (NKJV), but I was first told about it by the minister at my church.

    i.e. this means that process of dying begins - which in of itself implies that Adam was going to live forever, and that if he ate of the fruit, then he would begin to die. But since you want scripture to support the 'living forever' stance:

    Gen 3:22-23
    22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"
    23 "Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

    If God hadn't kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden, they would have had access to the tree of life, and would have lived forever. Hope that helps :)

    God bless,

    Tris
     
  14. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
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    GW,

    Interesting take you have on the book of Job. Perhaps you should read the whole book instead of just a few verses to really get the feel of things.

    Job was NOT full of faith that God would not abandon him to die. What Job wanted was to die.

    Job 6:8 Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!
    Job 6:9 Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
    Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
    Job 6:11 What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?

    I can find no indication that Job expected to see God in his natural lifetime. You emphasize Job's flesh being destroyed by boils but you are overlooking the rest of the story. Job wanted a permanent record made, his words put down in a book. This indicates that Job WAS NOT expecting his deliverer to come SOON, but rather the 'latter day'
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,401
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    Catchup. On the off chance you havn't ignored me just yet,

    Where in the "end times" forum does it say it is futurist only? I can't find it anywhere.

    By the way it is the "end times" not "end of times" as you would twist it.

    Again, if you can show me any rules or owner/moderator posts that reserve the endtimes forum for those who hold to the futurist view only, I'll gladly leave.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Thanks John. It's good to see that this board is truly interested in the fair treatment of various eschatological views.

    I don't understand how so many Christians can turn so bitter towards those who don't hold their endtimes views. I can only continue to promote the book by Steve Gregg called:

    Revelation : Four Views : A Parallel Commentary [/b]
    by Steve Gregg (Editor), (Hardcover - April 1997)
    Average Customer Review: 4.5 stars out of 5 on Amazon.com
    -- The book is recommended by notables such as Pastor Jack Hayford. Click Link!


    I think people need to get educated that their view is only one of MANY views handed down through Church history. Another great book is:


    End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology
    by Gary DeMar
    *click on title to read reviews!
    *or click here to listen to interview with author using Real Audio.

    God bless!
     
  17. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian


    Job's hope against all evidence was for a day within his lifetime when God would vindicate and deliver him (Job 10:9; 23:10; 17:9; 23:10; 19:25-27). Although he could not know for certain what would happen until God shows up, he believed by faith that even once the burning boils had struck off his skin he would see his vindicator with his eyes and be vindicated. This, of course, is exactly what happened (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5-10) and therefore Job 19:25-27 is one of the greatest statements of faith in all of scripture.

    The "Go'el" is not one who redeems one from their sins, but is one who vindicates one's case. Job knew that his case was correct and that his friends were wrong. He knew that he would be vindicated, and in the end God arises upon the dust and does exactly that.

    Job's skin was destroyed by his burning boils from satan that covered his body from head to toe (Job 2:7; 30:30) and at the end Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he believed by faith would happen (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5). His vindicator (Go-el) came and vindicated Job's cause (Job 42:7-10).

    You'd be hard pressed to find a scholarly commentary to interpret Job 19:25-27 in any other way. Job was clearly referring to his plight and how he was full of faith that God would not abandon him to die but would show up at the end and vindicate him. It all happened exactly like Job said.


    God bless.
    GW
     
  18. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

    +36
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    Married
    I'm posting here just to get everyone to stop and think. Preterism is only a point of view, just as valid as post-trib is to those who believe in pre-trib. It is not another denomination or another religion, as you are acting.

    People are coming on and posting things like, "My church studied preterism and all I can say is that it is crap."

    and

    "If you believe preterism, you have sold yourself to the service of Satan, who delights in twisting the truth of God in Scripture, which I happen to have the privilege of being privy to."

    What kind of discussion is that? I applaud GW.

    I don't even know what I believe about the debate. But if I were to judge merely on ungodly attitudes and lack of rational explanation, I'm afraid I would have to go with the preterists right now. :(
     
  19. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
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    GW your either clueless to the definition of "go'el" or your being deceptive when it comes to definitions again like you were with Chilioi. substituting the word origin for it's definition from stong's was not a very honest thing to do.


    actually it was easy, in my very own bible(NASB) it lists it as a referance to the resurrection



    actually Job was expecting to die right up to the moment the LORD appeared, he did not expect the Lord to come at the end of the conversation he was having when he said what he did he was refering to the resurrection.

    now for the actual definition of "redeemer" or "Ga'al" from Job 19:25 strong's #01350 which is the same word for "redeemer" used about God himself throughout the OT including this verse

    Isaiah 47:4
    Our Redeemer--the LORD of hosts is his name--is the Holy One of Israel.

    "Ga'al"

    to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer, avenge, revenge, ransom, do the part of a kinsman
    (Qal)
    to act as kinsman, do the part of next of kin, act as kinsman-redeemer 1a
    by marrying brother's widow to beget a child for him, to redeem from slavery, to redeem land, to exact vengeance
    to redeem (by payment)
    to redeem (with God as subject) 1a
    individuals from death 1a
    Israel from Egyptian bondage 1a
    Israel from exile
    (Niphal)
    to redeem oneself
    to be redeemed
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,401
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    Didaskomenos has brought up a very important point!

    I imagine that he represents but the tip of the iceberg of folks who brouse this thread but have posted very little or not at all, just attempting to gague the validity of the various arguments being presented.

    I hope my brothers and sisters who so adamately oppose the preterist view take his post to heart, and realize that their attitude on the subject could be doing more harm than good toward convincing the "floaters" that they are right.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
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