Full Preterist Safe House

[parousia70]

Where did I specifically say "'the coming of the Lord' could refer to Jerusalem's destruction?"

Your last line in post #68 here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7784643-7/#post65710907

A New World posted the scripture James 5:7-9 and your response was:

"Could refer only to the imminent judgment of Israel and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple."

So tell us, how in your view could James 5:7-9 refer only to Jerusalem and the temples imminent destruction?

 

[parousia70]

Jerusalem's 70AD destruction is the only coming James could have been speaking about. James said that Christ's coming was "at the door."

I agree.

But I was surprised to see my friend Der Alter make such a claim.

Typically he holds an opposite position.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Where did I specifically say "'the coming of the Lord' could refer to Jerusalem's destruction?"

Well, you kind of implied it in response to another post:

Confirmation from an inspired apostle that the coming of The Lord in that generation, as prophesied by Jesus, had drawn near:

You too be
patient; strengthen your hearts, for THE PAROUSIA OF THE LORD IS NEAR. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, THE JUDGE IS STANDING RIGHT AT THE DOOR. (James 5:7-9 NASB)

Could refer only to the imminent judgment of Israel and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Jerusalem's 70AD destruction is the only coming James could have been speaking about. James said that Christ's coming was "at the door."

And also Paul and Peter........

The word COMING comes from the greek word "PAROUSIA", as mentioned only 4 times in the Gospels, and that in Matthew 24.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7431980/
Where is the Parousia of Matt 24 showing in Revelation?

Matthew 24:3
Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives the Disciples came toward Him according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the sign of Thy parousiaV <3952> and the together-finish of the Age"
[Daniel 12/1Corin 15:23/Revelation 19:11]

1 Thessalonians 3:13
Into the stand-fast of ye the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us, in the parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him
[Zech 14:5/Matt 24:3/Revelation 19:11.]

Revelation 19:11
And I saw the heaven having be opened and behold!
A white horse and the One sitting on it being called faithful and true. And in righteousness He is judging and battling.



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[Der Alte]

Where did I specifically say "'the coming of the Lord' could refer to Jerusalem's destruction?"

Well, you kind of implied it in response to another post:

Confirmation from an inspired apostle that the coming of The Lord in that generation, as prophesied by Jesus, had drawn near:

You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for THE PAROUSIA OF THE LORD IS NEAR. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, THE JUDGE IS STANDING RIGHT AT THE DOOR. (James 5:7-9 NASB)

Could refer only to the imminent judgment of Israel and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Jerusalem's 70AD destruction is the only coming James could have been speaking about. James said that Christ's coming was "at the door."

The word coming is also "PAROUSIA",as mentioned only 4 times in the Gospels, and that in Matthew 24.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7431980/

Where is the Parousia of Matt 24 showing in Revelation?

Matthew 24:3
Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives the Disciples came toward Him according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the sign of Thy parousiaV <3952> and the together-finish of the Age"
[Daniel 12/1Corin 15:23/Revelation 19:11]

1 Thessalonians 3:13
Into the stand-fast of ye the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us, in the parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him
[Zech 14:5/Matt 24:3/Revelation 19:11.]

Revelation 19:11
And I saw the heaven having be openedand behold!
A white horse and the One sitting on it being called faithful and true. And in righteousness He is judging and battling.

The judge at the door does not necessarily refer to the Lord.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The judge at the door does not necessarily refer to the Lord.

I would say Jesus is the "key" that opens and shuts doors to the Kingdom.

Matt 24:33
"Thus also, whenever ye may be being seing all these, be ye knowing! that nigh is upon doors
[Mark 13:29]

Luke 21:31
"Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing these becoming, ye are knowing that NIGH/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God."

Revelation 3:
8 I am aware of thee the works.
Behold! I have given in view of thee a door having been opened, which no one can shut/lock,
that little thou are having power/strength and thou keep of Me the word and not thou disown the name of Me
20
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock.
If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with Me.


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[parousia70]

The judge at the door does not necessarily refer to the Lord.

What scripture would you cite to support that?

Does "The Coming of the Lord is near" when James said it also not necessarily refer to the Lord?

It's OK Der, you can say you misspoke, that you didn't meant to Say James 5:7-9 could refer to Jerusalems AD 70 Destruction.

Unless of course you did mean to say that. Then my questions still stand.

 

[Jack Terrence]

A lot of the stuff from your link has already been posted here. Just because some anonymous dood posts this on his website does not make it true. This verse does not refer to Israel as heaven.

It is apparent that you elevate the interpretation of men above the interpretation of Jesus. Jesus said that heaven and earth would pass BEFORE the law would pass. He said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all be fulfilled.

Therefore, heaven and earth would pass BEFORE one jot or tittle would pass.

Now the law said that the Gentiles were "unclean." Peter abrogated that law saying that we are to no longer regard any man as unclean. This means that all the law was fulfilled because not one jot or tittle may pass until all is fulfilled. And heaven and earth must pass BEFORE all is fulfilled.

Another example of "heaven and earth" being referred to the Covenant World of Israel, and not literal creation, is Isaiah 51:16, "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

How Heaven and Earth Passed Away

Heaven and earth was Israel, not the physical creation. Israel has passed. God has ordained that the physical creation remain.

 

[A New World]

The judge at the door does not necessarily refer to the Lord.

The following suggests that in fact The Lord Jesus is "The Judge":

"For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war."

"He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God."

"And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND Lord OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:2, 11, 13, 16 NKJV)

Der Alter, what are the options, other than Jesus, for "the Judge" standing at the door in James 5:9?

 

[parousia70]

Der Alter, what are the options, other than Jesus, for "the Judge" standing at the door in James 5:9?

Excellent question.

After all James is quoting Jesus from the Olivet:

COMPARE THIS:
so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. (Matt 24:33)

TO THIS:
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!(Jas 5:8-9)

James, knowing full well Jesus taught that he would NOT be near and at the door UNTIL certain signs were seen, must have seen those signs Jesus taught about, otherwise he would not have, under divine inspiration, written that He was, at that time, near and at the door.

 

[A New World]

Excellent question.

After all James is quoting Jesus from the Olivet:

COMPARE THIS:
so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. (Matt 24:33)

TO THIS:
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!(Jas 5:8-9)

James, knowing full well Jesus taught that he would NOT be near and at the door UNTIL certain signs were seen, must have seen those signs Jesus taught about, otherwise he would not have, under divine inspiration, written that He was, at that time, near and at the door.

An excellent point and one I've made many times in discussions with futurists.
Some of them admit that James referred to AD 70, calling it "a coming," while others say he was speaking of a distant future second coming. These views fail to honor the overall context considering both Jesus' and James' words together.

As you've noted, James wasn't carelessly throwing around words like "the coming of The Lord is near." We can fully rely on the inspired text. Jesus gave them signs to recognize the time of His coming. James shared this knowledge with the twelve tribes (James 1:1) that were being gathered in the last days.

Excellent post!

 

[parousia70]

An excellent point and one I've made many times in discussions with futurists.
Some of them admit that James referred to AD 70, calling it "a coming," while others say he was speaking of a distant future second coming. These views fail to honor the overall context considering both Jesus' and James' words together.

As you've noted, James wasn't carelessly throwing around words like "the coming of The Lord is near." We can fully rely on the inspired text. Jesus gave them signs to recognize the time of His coming. James shared this knowledge with the twelve tribes (James 1:1) that were being gathered in the last days.

Excellent post!

Thanks A New Dawn.

What strikes me most about it is in Matt 24:33, Jesus is affirming the preterist understanding of the term "near"... and this is one verse that futurists, when pressed, will NEVER apply their typical "near=2000+ years" hermeneutic, yet when James uses the EXACT VERBAGE, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the futurist is compelled by his/her previously held bias to revert back to their 'near means far" playbook.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is also another term for a type of Preterist....HyperPreterist.
I first heard that used on the Preterist board at CARM forum.

On that board, partial, full/hyper Preterists can battle each other on their views [but sometimes the Dispy futurists come in and harrass us ]

A Scriptural Critique of Full Preterism In Light of Matthew 24 and Related Passages

There are two kinds of preterists: full and partial.

Full preterists, also called consistent preterists, hyper-preterists, Hymenaen preterists, and pantelists, believe that all of scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD, when Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus.
They build this doctrine primarily on the statement of Jesus recorded in Matthew 24:34:

&#8220;Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.&#8221;

Because Jesus said this, they assert that the second advent must have happened before the last member of that generation died.

A favorite statement among many full preterists is &#8220;time determines nature.&#8221; Since Jesus&#8217; time statement is clear, they say, we must interpret the nature of last days events in light of this.

Teachings that agree with the early creeds are called orthodox; those that don&#8217;t are called heterodox, or heretical. The creeds are simply statements of what the church universal (which consists of all true believers in Christ) has historically judged to be sound doctrine. This was determined by a process not unlike that by which she judged which books constitute the canon of scripture.
An appeal to the creeds is not a violation of sola scriptura, as some full preterists claim, because the creeds derive their authority from scripture, not apart from it. All creedal statements should be subject to scripture and tested by it. The creeds have in fact always been subject to the test of scripture, and they have stood that test for nearly 2000 years.
Now, in recent times, full preterists believe that we should discount the creeds in favor of their new and novel interpretation of scripture..........




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[LittleLambofJesus]

Some more interesting reading on "Hyperpreterism"

Randall Otto : Preterism and the Question of Heresy - Quodlibet Journal

Full preterism views the parousia singly spoken of in the NT as fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in the Jewish war of 66-70 A.D. This eschatological viewpoint has been rapidly spreading throughout Reformed Christianity....................

Sproul suggests in his book The Last Days According to Jesus (1998) that, while Jesus believed the parousia of which he spoke in the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in the Jewish war of 66-70 A.D., there remains another parousia yet future which is described by Paul.
However, the question for partial preterists like Sproul remains: "if the eschatological scenario and parousia Jesus predicted in the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in AD 70, where did the apostles get the notion of another, yet future, coming?.........

Conclusion
"Orthodox faith and orthodox doctrines are those that honor God rightly," whereas "heresy" refers to the false doctrine of those who "have abandoned the faith" and move others to do the same. [82]

If heresy has to do with a denial of the principle that God has provided redemption in Christ, as McGrath says, it is hard to understand how preterism can be viewed as a heresy, for it affirms "the orthodox faith and orthodox doctrines" in all points as expressed in the great creeds and confessions while endeavoring to "honor God rightly" by insisting that the consummation of God's redemptive purpose in Christ's parousia has not been frustrated or postponed, but rather accomplished according to the clear chronology set forth in the NT.

Preterists believe this evidence is so compelling that they are willing to suffer the accusations and condemnations of others in their effort to affirm the words of the apostle Paul: "let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: 'So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge'" (Rom 3:4).
They invite others seriously interested in investigating these matters to do so from within the great tradition for the furtherance of the reformation, recognizing the need of the church to be "reformed and always reforming according to the Word of God."

http://preteristarchive.com/Hyper/index.html



HYPER PRETERISM
"Full preterist" material is being archived for balanced representation of all preterist views, but is classified under the theological term hyper (as in beyond the acceptable range of tolerable doctrines) at this website. The classification of all full preterism as Hyper Preterism (HyP) is built upon well over a decade of intense research at PreteristArchive.com, and the convictions of the website curator (a former full preterist pastor). The HyP theology of final resurrection and consummation in the fall of Jerusalem, with its dispensational line in AD70 (end of old age, start of new age), has never been known among authors through nearly 20 centuries of Christianity leading up to 1845, when the earliest known full preterist book was written. Even though there may be many secondary points of agreement between Historical/Modern Preterism and Hyper Preterism, their premises are undeniably and fundamentally different.



.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks A New Dawn.

What strikes me most about it is in Matt 24:33, Jesus is affirming the preterist understanding of the term "near"... and this is one verse that futurists, when pressed, will NEVER apply their typical "near=2000+ years" hermeneutic, yet when James uses the EXACT VERBAGE, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the futurist is compelled by his/her previously held bias to revert back to their 'near means far" playbook.

Same word, just in a different form than James and Peter uses.
Interesting.

Greek Lexicon :: G1451 (KJV)
Strong's Number G1451 matches the Greek &#7952;&#947;&#947;&#8059;&#962; (eggys), which occurs 30 times in 30 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

1451. eggus eng-goos' from a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of 43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):--from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready

Matt 24:33
"Thus also whenever ye may be being aware all these, be ye knowing! that NIGH/egguV <1451> is upon doors [Mark 13:29]

Greek Lexicon :: G1448 (YLT)
Strong's Number G1448 matches the Greek &#7952;&#947;&#947;&#8055;&#950;&#969; (eggiz&#333;),
which occurs 55 times in 41 verses in the Greek concordance
1448. eggizo eng-id'-zo from 1451; to make near, i.e. (reflexively) approach:--approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.

1 Peter 4:7
Of All-things yet The End is NIGH/hggiken <1448> (5758);
be sane! then and be sober! into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord is NIGH/hggiken <1448>(5758)


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[Der Alte]

It is apparent that you elevate the interpretation of men above the interpretation of Jesus. Jesus said that heaven and earth would pass BEFORE the law would pass. He said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all be fulfilled.

Therefore, heaven and earth would pass BEFORE one jot or tittle would pass.

Now the law said that the Gentiles were "unclean." Peter abrogated that law saying that we are to no longer regard any man as unclean. This means that all the law was fulfilled because not one jot or tittle may pass until all is fulfilled. And heaven and earth must pass BEFORE all is fulfilled.


Another example of "heaven and earth" being referred to the Covenant World of Israel, and not literal creation, is Isaiah 51:16, "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

How Heaven and Earth Passed Away
Heaven and earth was Israel, not the physical creation. Israel has passed. God has ordained that the physical creation remain.

I have addressed this in the other preterist thread but here it is again. Two translations of Isa 51:6 by native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars, 100 to 250 years before Christ. Neither translation shows that God is calling Israel "heaven" and "earth."

LXX Isa 51:16 I will put my words into thy mouth, and I will shelter thee under the shadow of mine hand, with which I fixed the sky, and founded the earth: and the Lord shall say to Sion, Thou art my people.

Targum Isa 51:16 1 have put the words of my prophecy in thy mouth, and with the shadow of my power have I protected thee, to raise up the nation, concerning which it hath been promised that they shall be as many as the stars of heaven, and to establish the congregation it has been promised concerning them, that they shall multiply like the dust of the earth, and to say to the inhabitants of Zion, they are my people.​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have addressed this in the other preterist thread but here it is again.

Two translations of Isa 51:6 by native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars, 100 to 250 years before Christ.
Neither translation shows that God is calling Israel "heaven" and "earth."

Earth could also be "land".
What heaven/s and land is Haggai and Hebrews talking about?

Ezekiel 38:19
"And in My jealously, in fire of rage of Me I speak, if not in that day, shall become a great earthquake on ground of Israel"
[Revelation 16:18]

Haggai 2:6 That thus He says, YHVH of Hosts: Yet one little, she, and I am quaking/07493 ra`ash the heavens and the land, and the sea, and the dry,

Hebrews 12:26
Whose voice the land shakes then, now yet He has promised saying 'still once I shall be quaking/seiw <4579> (5719) not only the Land but also the Heaven.
[Haggai 2:6/Revelation 16:18]

Reve 16:18
and became lightnings and thunders and voices/sounds and a great earthquake/seismoV <4578> became, such-as not became since the men became upon the land,
such a proportion an earthquake/seismoV <4578> thus great.
[Haggai 2:6/Ezekiel 38:19]



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[A New World]

Some more interesting reading on "Hyperpreterism"

Randall Otto : Preterism and the Question of Heresy - Quodlibet Journal

Full preterism views the parousia singly spoken of in the NT as fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in the Jewish war of 66-70 A.D. This eschatological viewpoint has been rapidly spreading throughout Reformed Christianity....................

Sproul suggests in his book The Last Days According to Jesus (1998) that, while Jesus believed the parousia of which he spoke in the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in the Jewish war of 66-70 A.D., there remains another parousia yet future which is described by Paul.
However, the question for partial preterists like Sproul remains: "if the eschatological scenario and parousia Jesus predicted in the Olivet discourse was fulfilled in AD 70, where did the apostles get the notion of another, yet future, coming?.........

Conclusion
"Orthodox faith and orthodox doctrines are those that honor God rightly," whereas "heresy" refers to the false doctrine of those who "have abandoned the faith" and move others to do the same. [82]

If heresy has to do with a denial of the principle that God has provided redemption in Christ, as McGrath says, it is hard to understand how preterism can be viewed as a heresy, for it affirms "the orthodox faith and orthodox doctrines" in all points as expressed in the great creeds and confessions while endeavoring to "honor God rightly" by insisting that the consummation of God's redemptive purpose in Christ's parousia has not been frustrated or postponed, but rather accomplished according to the clear chronology set forth in the NT.

Preterists believe this evidence is so compelling that they are willing to suffer the accusations and condemnations of others in their effort to affirm the words of the apostle Paul: "let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: 'So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge'" (Rom 3:4).
They invite others seriously interested in investigating these matters to do so from within the great tradition for the furtherance of the reformation, recognizing the need of the church to be "reformed and always reforming according to the Word of God."

Hyper Preterism Study Archive - A Collection of Books and Articles Presenting the Hyper and Full Preterist Views



HYPER PRETERISM
"Full preterist" material is being archived for balanced representation of all preterist views, but is classified under the theological term hyper (as in beyond the acceptable range of tolerable doctrines) at this website. The classification of all full preterism as Hyper Preterism (HyP) is built upon well over a decade of intense research at PreteristArchive.com, and the convictions of the website curator (a former full preterist pastor). The HyP theology of final resurrection and consummation in the fall of Jerusalem, with its dispensational line in AD70 (end of old age, start of new age), has never been known among authors through nearly 20 centuries of Christianity leading up to 1845, when the earliest known full preterist book was written. Even though there may be many secondary points of agreement between Historical/Modern Preterism and Hyper Preterism, their premises are undeniably and fundamentally different.



.

Wow! Thanks for the words of truth and encouragement. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your post.

May God continue to bless the pursuit of truth.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have been labeled a preterist by cf because I say the second coming was in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
And he sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.

Someone quoted you as posting this on another thread.
I must admit, your view of the 4 horses is "unique" to say the least.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2231060/#post19317245

OK. here we go.

The 2nd horseman (in the historicist view) is Charles the Great who
founded the Holy Roman Empire. He rode a red horse and conquered with a
great sword (or lance, see Rev. 6:3-4)

It should also be noted that both Constantine's Byzantine Empire and the
the Holy Roman Empire lasted 1000 years, as did Israel, the first chosen
people.

The 3rd horseman is King james who rode a black horse and conquered with
economics (6:5-6).

The 4th horseman (IMO) is George Washington who rode a pale horse. His
successors brought us mass death (i.e. the nuclear bomb).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Some more interesting reading on "Hyperpreterism"

Randall Otto : Preterism and the Question of Heresy - Quodlibet Journal
.

​

Wow! Thanks for the words of truth and encouragement. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your post.

May God continue to bless the pursuit of truth.

Here is another Partial Preterist and his view of Full/Hyper Preterism.
This was back in 1999, so not sure if his view has changed any since then.

Kenneth Gentry Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

(Where Gentry Stood on The Olivet Discourse 2/99)
"But again -- as I argue in an earlier newsletter (Oct., 1998) -- WHERE is the temporal marker serving as the springboard from the first century into the distant future? I have no problem with A.D. 70 texts coming into close association with Second Advent texts: they are theologically related (see Matt. 24:3-35 with Matt. 24:36ff in my September, 1998 issue). I do, however, have a problem with the mere ASSERTION without proper exegetical notation -- and especially since such goes AGAINST positive contrary evidence."(An Introductory Disclaimer, Orlando Conference)
(On Full Preterism - "Hyper-Preterism" in Gentry)

"...goes too far by extending valid observations gathered from temporally confined judgment passages (texts including such delimitations as ‘soon’ and ‘at hand’) to passages that are not temporally constrained and that actually prophesy the future advent of Christ." (Tabletalk magazine, January 1999, p.56)

"Before I begin my analysis and critique, however, I must make very clear my orthodox convictions regarding biblical eschatology. I pause to do so because a new, unorthodox movement has arisen that confuses many Christians regarding orthodox preterism. This new movement largely arises from within Church of Christ (Campbellite) circles; indeed, the two main publishing sources of the movement are run by present or former Campbellites (though, like any good cult-like movement, it is widening its net and drawing followers from other sources).

This movement asserts that A.D. 70 witnesses the fulfilling of ALL eschatological prophecy. This mutant form of preterism goes too far, for it denies a future Second Advent of Christ; a future, bodily resurrection of the dead; and other historic, orthodox doctrines of the Christian faith." (An Introductory Disclaimer)

"Unfortunately, a new gnosticism is infecting the church: hyper-preterism. One major feature of hyper-preterism is its denial of a future physical resurrection of the believer at the end of history. As we shall see, this contradicts a major result of the resurrection of Christ. Before I demonstrate this, I must briefly summarize the argument for Christ's physical resurrection, which is the effective cause of our own future resurrection. " (Christ's Resurrection and ours)



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[interpreter]

Someone quoted you as posting this on another thread.
I must admit, your view of the 4 horses is "unique" to say the least.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2231060/#post19317245

Actually, the second horseman could represent Roman Catholic kings as a whole who took peace from the earth during the Crusades. And the 3rd horseman is Great Britain and the British Empire which conquered with economics. And the US is clearly the 4th Christian superpower to rule the earth for Jesus. Our weapons bring hell and death to the enemies of Jesus.