Full Preterist Safe House

[Der Alte]

I would just like to reiterate - as I did in the "Preterism scriptural evidence thread"

that this 312 AD jazz is NOT anything a standard Full Preterist or even a Partial Preterist would hold

it's just an off-the-wall interpretation WELL APART from "Preterists" as a whole

Biblical prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD [No scripture! DA]

a SPIRITUAL VICTORY had been won

IN JESUS' OWN GENERATION!! [No scripture! DA]

No "waiting and waiting 2 thousand years for Jesus to actually WIN"

no waiting and waiting for a revamped NATIONAL ISRAEL and a focus on a rebuilt temple and red heifers and oh my God -[No scripture! DA]

having begun in the spiritual, will ye now be made perfect by THE FLESH??

Physical Israel and a "restored land" and animal sacrifices after the ONE PERFECT SACRIFICE has been made?

oh, He got beat up and crucified in His time but some day bye and bye pie in the sky he will come back and ACTUALLY WIN --

nahh

He won when He said he would

in the generation to which He came

i wonder when you are ever going to provide scripture for your arguments?

 

[Jack Terrence]

I would just like to reiterate - as I did in the "Preterism scriptural evidence thread"

that this 312 AD jazz is NOT anything a standard Full Preterist or even a Partial Preterist would hold

it's just an off-the-wall interpretation WELL APART from "Preterists" as a whole

Biblical prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD

a SPIRITUAL VICTORY had been won

IN JESUS' OWN GENERATION!!

No "waiting and waiting 2 thousand years for Jesus to actually WIN"

no waiting and waiting for a revamped NATIONAL ISRAEL and a focus on a rebuilt temple and red heifers and oh my God -

having begun in the spiritual, will ye now be made perfect by THE FLESH??

Physical Israel and a "restored land" and animal sacrifices after the ONE PERFECT SACRIFICE has been made?

oh, He got beat up and crucified in His time but some day bye and bye pie in the sky he will come back and ACTUALLY WIN --

nahh

He won when He said he would

in the generation to which He came

Amen brother!

 

[Jack Terrence]

i wonder when you are ever going to provide scripture for your arguments?

The scriptures have been provided numerous times.

Jesus said that the judgment of the world and of satan "now is."

"NOW IS the judgment of this world. NOW IS the prince of this world cast out."

"Now is" means "Now is,"

"The hour NOW IS when you shall no longer worship in Jerusalem."

Paul said that all things have been subjected to Christ. His authority as "head" over the church is the proof,

20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,

Paul said that death is the LAST enemy to be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15). He told Timothy that death has been destroyed.

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

If death is the LAST enemy to be destroyed, and if death has been destroyed, then there remains no enemy for Him to defeat. ALL His enemies are subject to Him now. ALL His enemies are His footstool now.

 

[Anto9us]

Thx Boxer!

Biblical prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD [No scripture! DA]

Luk 21:12
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luk 21:13
And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

Luk 21:14
Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

Luk 21:15
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Luk 21:16
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Luk 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

Luk 21:18
But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Luk 21:19
In your patience possess ye your souls.

Luk 21:20
And


when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,

then know that the

desolation

thereof is nigh.

Luk 21:21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto

Luk 21:22
For these be the days of vengeance, that

all things which are written may be fulfilled.


*****(THESE be the days - not 2 thousand years from then! )*****

Luk 21:23
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Luk 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luk 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

****Jesus told the High Priest/Sanhedrin member about seeing Him come in the clouds with power and glory - whether still living or passed - Sanhedrin members of Jesus' day saw the parousia in 70 AD - they DID SEE him coming in great power - He wasn't just whistlin' Dixie!*****

 

[Anto9us]

a SPIRITUAL VICTORY had been won

IN JESUS' OWN GENERATION!! [No scripture! DA]
This generation shall not pass away til all be fulfilled
Mat 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mar 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Luk 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

There be some standing here

 

[Anto9us]

No "waiting and waiting 2 thousand years for Jesus to actually WIN"

no waiting and waiting for a revamped NATIONAL ISRAEL and a focus on a rebuilt temple and red heifers and oh my God -[No scripture! DA]

He doeth away with the first to establish the second


Heb 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

***************NO RED HEIFERS TO BE LOOKED FOR!! That covenant WAXED OLD and VANISHED AWAY!!*******************

Heb 10:8
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.


He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.



Heb 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Der Alte]

a SPIRITUAL VICTORY had been won

IN JESUS' OWN GENERATION!! [No scripture! DA]
This generation shall not pass away til all be fulfilled
Mat 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mar 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Luk 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

There be some standing here

Are you familiar with the concept of "context"?

Mat 24:27-34
(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
(33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
(34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

Who is "this generation" vs. 34? Is it the generation Jesus is speaking to? No, it is the generation who sees all the things listed in vss. 27-31, "when ye shall see all these things,," as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Has any genration seen all these signs yet?

 

[Anto9us]

Yeah.

"The generation THAT SEES THESE THINGS"

I thought that line for decades, transposing a generation that WOULD SEE CERTAIN THINGS IN THE FUTURE

but really

the THREE QUESTIONS the disciples asked in Matt 24 when Jesus had JUST SAID "not one stone will be left on another" and I dig CONTEXT - the CONTEXT was the BUILDING(s) of the Temple that the the disciples were admiring - and Jesus JUST SAID "all will be torn down - not one stone on top of another"

then the disciples asked
1. when shall THESE THINGS BE (the things that He had just spoke of - which happened in 70 AD and EVERYONE KNOWS IT -- not "THESE THINGS two thousand plus years from then)
2. what shall be the sign of thy PAROUSIA?
3. and of the End of the Age?

all 3 intermingled - all 3 in the SAME QUESTION asked by the disciples...

what right did we as Dispensationalists/pretribbers ever have to

SPLIT THINGS UP and say

oh, well, the disciples were CONFUSED and didn't know what they were asking - didn't realize how apart in time the things they were asking about were

How dared we say that?

All 3 things were TOGETHER

TEMPLE DESTROYED - SIGN OF PAROUSIA - END OF THE

AGE

(of Mosaic Judasim)

ALL happened simultaneously (at the same time too)

70 AD

Olivet Discourse - Book of Revelation - ALL THINGS FULFILLED

old covenant KAPUT -- not SUSPENDED for a big GAP between 69th and 70th week

but

KAPUT

finis

passed away

fulfilled

done away with to make room for the second covenant

One can choose NOT to accept the preterist explanations of what was seen and can argue til a mythical 'kingdom come' that "no one has ever seen these things yet"

Reality is Kingdom HAS come

Parousia - 70 AD

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The second coming was in 312AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow..
The day the sign appeared is known as the turning point of history because ever since that day, Christian nations have been the dominant force on earth. And Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet, and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.

That is a rather unusual view, but then I have seen many rather unique views concerning the end times.


.

 

[Der Alte]

Yeah.

"The generation THAT SEES THESE THINGS"

I thought that line for decades, transposing a generation that WOULD SEE CERTAIN THINGS IN THE FUTURE

but really

the THREE QUESTIONS the disciples asked in Matt 24 when Jesus had JUST SAID "not one stone will be left on another" and I dig CONTEXT - the CONTEXT was the BUILDING(s) of the Temple that the the disciples were admiring - and Jesus JUST SAID "all will be torn down - not one stone on top of another"

then the disciples asked
1. when shall THESE THINGS BE (the things that He had just spoke of - which happened in 70 AD and EVERYONE KNOWS IT -- not "THESE THINGS two thousand plus years from then)
2. what shall be the sign of thy PAROUSIA?
3. and of the End of the Age?

all 3 intermingled - all 3 in the SAME QUESTION asked by the disciples...

what right did we as Dispensationalists/pretribbers ever have to

SPLIT THINGS UP and say

oh, well, the disciples were CONFUSED and didn't know what they were asking - didn't realize how apart in time the things they were asking about were

How dared we say that?

All 3 things were TOGETHER

TEMPLE DESTROYED - SIGN OF PAROUSIA - END OF THE

AGE

(of Mosaic Judasim)

ALL happened simultaneously (at the same time too)

70 AD

Olivet Discourse - Book of Revelation - ALL THINGS FULFILLED

old covenant KAPUT -- not SUSPENDED for a big GAP between 69th and 70th week

but

KAPUT

finis

passed away

fulfilled

done away with to make room for the second covenant

One can choose NOT to accept the preterist explanations of what was seen and can argue til a mythical 'kingdom come' that "no one has ever seen these things yet"

Reality is Kingdom HAS come

Parousia - 70 AD

Mocking and derision but you did not address my post. I know that the temple was destroyed, ca. 70 AD, but when did all these things happen?

1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. Tribulation which precedes the sun not giving its light.
3. The stars falling from heaven.
4. The powers of the heavens shaken.
5. The sign of the Son of man in heaven:
6. All the tribes of the earth mourning,
7. All the tribes of the earth seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
8. The Son of Man sending his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.
9. The angels gathering together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

 

[Anto9us]

I don't see my post as "mocking and derision" - I really don't. Sorry if it is taken that way

It's just that these are some of the same objections that I used to have regarding preterism - I think I WAS full of a lot of "mocking and derision" AGAINST Preterism when I was opposed to it.

I started this thread a LONG time ago - and later realized there cannot be such a thing as a "Full Preterist SAFE HOUSE" - per the rules of even what is now UDD - it aint gonna happen

we are at least free to discuss it; but full preterists will always be the "whippin boys" and its a minority position with no safe quarter anywhere

getting into this thread again recently, I was trying to point out that the "312 Constantine" idea was an even MORE minority view - a minority of minorities and not really what I would call normative Full Preterism

being a minority does not make one wrong

its just that the 312 idea doesn't really jive with either partial or full preterism as anybody else might know it other than the Constantine bow-hunters

 

[Jack Terrence]

Mocking and derision but you did not address my post. I know that the temple was destroyed, ca. 70 AD, but when did all these things happen?

1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. Tribulation which precedes the sun not giving its light.
3. The stars falling from heaven.
4. The powers of the heavens shaken.
5. The sign of the Son of man in heaven:
6. All the tribes of the earth mourning,
7. All the tribes of the earth seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
8. The Son of Man sending his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.
9. The angels gathering together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

It ALL happened in AD70.

9. The angels gathering together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect Jews were gathered unto salvation. The Greek word "angelos" simply means messenger. The Gospel had reached every Jew in that generation. The elect Jews of that generation were gathered unto salvation before Christ came back to judge Israel.

 

[Der Alte]

Mocking and derision but you did not address my post. I know that the temple was destroyed, ca. 70 AD, but when did all these things happen?

1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. Tribulation which precedes the sun not giving its light.
3. The stars falling from heaven.
4. The powers of the heavens shaken.
5. The sign of the Son of man in heaven:
6. All the tribes of the earth mourning,
7. All the tribes of the earth seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
8. The Son of Man sending his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.
9. The angels gathering together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

It ALL happened in AD70.

Prove it

The elect Jews were gathered unto salvation. The Greek word "angelos" simply means messenger. The Gospel had reached every Jew in that generation. The elect Jews of that generation were gathered unto salvation before Christ came back to judge Israel.

Prove it! When did "The Son of Man send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. The angels gathering together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other?"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't see my post as "mocking and derision" - I really don't. Sorry if it is taken that way

It's just that these are some of the same objections that I used to have regarding preterism - I think I WAS full of a lot of "mocking and derision" AGAINST Preterism when I was opposed to it.

I started this thread a LONG time ago - and later realized there cannot be such a thing as a "Full Preterist SAFE HOUSE" - per the rules of even what is now UDD - it aint gonna happen

we are at least free to discuss it; but full preterists will always be the "whippin boys" and its a minority position with no safe quarter anywhere

getting into this thread again recently, I was trying to point out that the "312 Constantine" idea was an even MORE minority view - a minority of minorities and not really what I would call normative Full Preterism

being a minority does not make one wrong

its just that the 312 idea doesn't really jive with either partial or full preterism as anybody else might know it other than the Constantine bow-hunters

Isn't it the Christadelphians that believe the one on the White Horse is Constantine?

- Chapter 6 - Carelinks - www.carelinks.net
www.carelinks.net/doc/revelation-en/17 ‎

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a
crown ..... of Revelation by H.P.Mansfield in the series known as the '
Christadelphian ...

According to this view it represents the historical period when
Constantine ...





.

 

[A New World]

Prove it



Prove it! When did "The Son of Man send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. The angels gathering together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other?"

It can be difficult to prove all of the details of the fulfillment of prophecies that occurred almost two thousand years ago. We should remember that we are reading someone else's mail when we read Israel's prophecies. The fact that they were fulfilled brings benefits for us but the Law and the prophets were given to Israel and fulfilled in Jesus.

I'm depending on the words of inspired writers who posited the coming of The Lord as near, shortly and soon.

We may never discover the details of each fulfillment but we can be confident that they occurred within the time frame of the first century AD generation. We can be absolutely sure of the "when" with regards to eschatology. There is sufficient evidence in the NT of the timing of the fulfillment of prophecy that there is no excuse for missing it.

 

[Anto9us]

"soon" "must shortly come to pass" "this generation will not pass away until all is fulfilled" "I come quickly" (NOT 'suddenly when I DO come after 200 years), but QUICKLY just like it says

NOT "a later generation that sees these things will not pass away" but RATHER

THE PLAIN SENSE

of "this generation" - the generation that Jesus was IN

THE PLAIN SENSE of

soon

quickly

"there be some standing here who will not taste death til they see me come"

the Revelation given to John concerning THINGS THAT MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS

THE

PLAIN SENSE

of these phrases/passages does NOT posit them in some "2000+ years away" setting

yet non-preterists seek EVERY SENSE

BUT

THE PLAIN SENSE

for phrases like "must shortly come to pass"

this generation

soon

I come quickly

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"soon" "must shortly come to pass" "this generation will not pass away until all is fulfilled" "I come quickly" (NOT 'suddenly when I DO come after 200 years), but QUICKLY just like it says

NOT "a later generation that sees these things will not pass away" but RATHER

THE PLAIN SENSE

of "this generation" - the generation that Jesus was IN

THE PLAIN SENSE of

soon.........quickly

I come quickly

Excellent post!

Greek Lexicon :: G5034 (YLT)
Strong's Number G5034 matches the Greek τάχος (tachos),
which occurs 7 times in 7 verses in the Greek concordance
shortly (with G1722) (4x), quickly (with G1722) (2x), speedily (with G1722) (1x).

Revelation 1:1
An un-covering of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to His bond-servants, which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness. And He signifies commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bondservants of Him, John

Revelation 22:6 And said to me "these the words faithful and true.
And Lord, the God of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the Messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness. [Revelation 1:1]

en <1722> tacei <5034>
&#12288;
1722. en a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state),
5034. tachos from the same as 5036; a brief space (of time), i.e. (with 1722 prefixed) in haste:--+ quickly, + shortly, + speedily.


.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Prove it

Prove it! When did "The Son of Man send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. The angels gathering together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other?"
​

It can be difficult to prove all of the details of the fulfillment of prophecies that occurred almost two thousand years ago. We should remember that we are reading someone else's mail when we read Israel's prophecies. The fact that they were fulfilled brings benefits for us but the Law and the prophets were given to Israel and fulfilled in Jesus.

I'm depending on the words of inspired writers who posited the coming of The Lord as near, shortly and soon.

We may never discover the details of each fulfillment but we can be confident that they occurred within the time frame of the first century AD generation. We can be absolutely sure of the "when" with regards to eschatology.
There is sufficient evidence in the NT of the timing of the fulfillment of prophecy that there is no excuse for missing it.

Except in the case of the unbelieving Jews of today, who are still awaiting their own Messiah to this very day.

Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus, why Jews reject Jesus

Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus

For 2,000 years Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as messiah. Why?


One of the most common questions we receive at Aish.com is: "Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?"
Let's understand why &#8213; not in order to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position.



.

 

[Jack Terrence]

When did "The Son of Man send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. The angels gathering together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other?"

The word "heaven" was often a Hebrew merism for Israel.

"He will gather His elect from one end of Israel to another."

Paul said that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven, that is, Israel (Colossians 1:23).

 

[Der Alte]

It can be difficult to prove all of the details of the fulfillment of prophecies that occurred almost two thousand years ago. We should remember that we are reading someone else's mail when we read Israel's prophecies. The fact that they were fulfilled brings benefits for us but the Law and the prophets were given to Israel and fulfilled in Jesus.

I'm depending on the words of inspired writers who posited the coming of The Lord as near, shortly and soon.

We may never discover the details of each fulfillment but we can be confident that they occurred within the time frame of the first century AD generation. We can be absolutely sure of the "when" with regards to eschatology. There is sufficient evidence in the NT of the timing of the fulfillment of prophecy that there is no excuse for missing it.

Preterist explanation, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"