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Der Alte

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The word "heaven" was often a Hebrew merism for Israel.

"He will gather His elect from one end of Israel to another."

Paul said that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven, that is, Israel (Colossians 1:23).

Scriptural evidence that "The word "heaven" was often a Hebrew merism for Israel? Other than "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Der Alter
When did "The Son of Man send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. The angels gathering together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other?"
The word "heaven" was often a Hebrew merism for Israel.

"He will gather His elect from one end of Israel to another."

Paul said that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven, that is, Israel (Colossians 1:23).
Never thought of it that way.
Or it could mean the carnal land of Judea and carnal city of Jerusalem, where the Temple and Sanctuary was located. Interesting.

Jhn 6:41
The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”

Act 2:5
And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7570002/
Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt



.
 
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A New World

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Mocking and derision but you did not address my post. I know that the temple was destroyed, ca. 70 AD, but when did all these things happen?

1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. Tribulation which precedes the sun not giving its light.
3. The stars falling from heaven.
4. The powers of the heavens shaken.
5. The sign of the Son of man in heaven:
6. All the tribes of the earth mourning,
7. All the tribes of the earth seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
8. The Son of Man sending his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.
9. The angels gathering together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Der Alter,
The following is a consistent application of your logic regarding the literal fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem.

You asked:

"The destruction of Jerusalem was a literal historical event. When did these events literally happen?"

Question:

The destruction of Babylon was a literal historical event. When did these events literally happen?

1. When did all the hands in Babylon fall limp?
2. When did every heart in Babylon melt?
3. When did the Babylonians writhe like a woman in labor?
4. When were their faces aflame?
5. When did the Day of The Lord come, cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make Babylon a desolation?
6. When were the Babylonians exterminated from the land?
7. When did the stars of heaven and their constellations not flash forth their light as associated with Babylon?
8. When was the sun dark when it rose as associated with Babylon?
9. When did the moon not shed it's light as associated with Babylon?

Answer: when God sent the Medes to remove the kingdom from Babylon!

Isaiah 13 is the prophecy of the imminent Day of The Lord when Babylon would be judged.

Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man's heart will melt. They will be terrified, Pains and anguish will take hold of them; They will writhe like a woman in labor, They will look at one another in astonishment, Their faces aflame. Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. (Isaiah 13:6-10 NASB)

The answer to your previous series of nine questions: When God sent the Romans to remove the kingdom from Old Covenant Israel.

Matthew 24 is a prophecy of the imminent Day of The Lord when Israel would be judged.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that HE IS NEAR, RIGHT AT THE DOOR. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24:29-34 NASB)

Confirmation from an inspired apostle that the coming of The Lord in that generation, as prophesied by Jesus, had drawn near:

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for THE COMING OF THE LORD IS NEAR. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, THE JUDGE IS STANDING RIGHT AT THE DOOR. (James 5:7-9 NASB)
 
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Anto9us

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Christadelphians?

Are they still in the Playoffs?

I thought only Heat, Thunder, Spurs, and Pacers were still in it...

Maybe Christadelphians won the NBA in 312 AD - the franchise became the 76ers when Wilt Chamberlain was shooting free throws underhanded...
 
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parousia70

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Scriptural evidence that "The word "heaven" was often a Hebrew merism for Israel?

Leviticus 26:14-20 'But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies. Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you. 18 'And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 19 I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. 20 And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.

God warns Israel that she must listen and obey Him in the commandments that He has given them. God uses various terms and expressions in describing what it will be like if they despise His statutes, but notice particularly verse 19: "and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass."

Notice how the character of Israel's disposition in God's view is personalized, "YOUR heaven" and "YOUR earth." So the terms "heaven" and "earth" belong or relate to Israel, they evidently constitute a "heaven" and "earth."

Isaiah 1:1-2 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;

Who is God speaking to here the physical creation? No, he is speaking to Israel.

Isaiah 51:15-16 But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared; The LORD of hosts is His name. 16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'"

The time of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth that is referred to here, was performed by God when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a covenant nation. He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth the order, and government of Israel.
 
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Der Alte

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Leviticus 26:14-20 'But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, 16 I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies. Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you. 18 'And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. 19 I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. 20 And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.

God warns Israel that she must listen and obey Him in the commandments that He has given them. God uses various terms and expressions in describing what it will be like if they despise His statutes, but notice particularly verse 19: "and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass."

Notice how the character of Israel's disposition in God's view is personalized, "YOUR heaven" and "YOUR earth." So the terms "heaven" and "earth" belong or relate to Israel, they evidently constitute a "heaven" and "earth."

Isaiah 1:1-2 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;

Who is God speaking to here the physical creation? No, he is speaking to Israel.

Isaiah 51:15-16 But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared; The LORD of hosts is His name. 16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'"

The time of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth that is referred to here, was performed by God when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a covenant nation. He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth the order, and government of Israel.

Nice try but I have to give you a fail. None of these scriptures refer to the people or the land of Israel as heaven.
 
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Der Alte

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Der Alter,
The following is a consistent application of your logic regarding the literal fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem.

You asked:

"The destruction of Jerusalem was a literal historical event. When did these events literally happen?"

Question:

The destruction of Babylon was a literal historical event. When did these events literally happen?

1. When did all the hands in Babylon fall limp?
2. When did every heart in Babylon melt?
3. When did the Babylonians writhe like a woman in labor?
4. When were their faces aflame?
5. When did the Day of The Lord come, cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make Babylon a desolation?
6. When were the Babylonians exterminated from the land?

These first 6 refer to naturally occurring events not supernatual events such as angels. People who are afraid become weak, "shall all hands be faint." It is not unusual for people to have heart attacks during great calamities. I imagine that the people of Israel were writhing with pain when the Babylonians were slaying them with arrows, spears, swords, etc. Faces gleam not flame.

7. When did the stars of heaven and their constellations not flash forth their light as associated with Babylon?
8. When was the sun dark when it rose as associated with Babylon?
9. When did the moon not shed it's light as associated with Babylon?

I remember during the first gulf war that daytime was like night. The sun, moon and stars were not visible due to the smoke from the oilfield fires. 8 and 9 could refer to the smoke from fires set by the Babylonians burning Jerusalem, etc. Nothing supernatural.

Answer: when God sent the Medes to remove the kingdom from Babylon!

Isaiah 13 is the prophecy of the imminent Day of The Lord when Babylon would be judged.

Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man's heart will melt. They will be terrified, Pains and anguish will take hold of them; They will writhe like a woman in labor, They will look at one another in astonishment, Their faces aflame. Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. (Isaiah 13:6-10 NASB)

No problem here.

The answer to your previous series of nine questions: When God sent the Romans to remove the kingdom from Old Covenant Israel.

Matthew 24 is a prophecy of the imminent Day of The Lord when Israel would be judged.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that HE IS NEAR, RIGHT AT THE DOOR. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24:29-34 NASB)

Here is my list again. Unlike your out-of-context proof text from Isaiah none of them are naturally occurring events which can occur when a large army attacks a city.

1. The Son of Man coming like lightning comes out of the east, and shining even unto the west.
2. Tribulation which precedes
3. the sun not giving its light.
4. The stars falling from heaven.
5. The powers of the heavens shaken.
6. The sign of the Son of man in heaven:
7. All the tribes of the earth mourning,
8. All the tribes of the earth seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
9. The Son of Man sending his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.
10. The angels gathering together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Confirmation from an inspired apostle that the coming of The Lord in that generation, as prophesied by Jesus, had drawn near:

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for THE COMING OF THE LORD IS NEAR. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, THE JUDGE IS STANDING RIGHT AT THE DOOR. (James 5:7-9 NASB)

Could refer only to the imminent judgment of Israel and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
 
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parousia70

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Nice try but I have to give you a fail. None of these scriptures refer to the people or the land of Israel as heaven.

Says you.
And I have to give you a fail for that, because you are wrong.

But, You wont change your position and I wont change mine.

So, Our readers have the evidence in front of them and can decide for themselves which of us is correct.

You are of course welcome to take the texts I cited and show our readers why they do not mean what I contend.
I noticed you didn't do that.
 
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parousia70

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Could refer only to the imminent judgment of Israel and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

So your position is that Jesus came and did those things?
 
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Der Alte

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You have your head in the sand.

How Heaven and Earth Passed Away

A lot of the stuff from your link has already been posted here. Just because some anonymous dood posts this on his website does not make it true. This verse does not refer to Israel as heaven.

Lev 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass and I will make your heaven as iron; so that neither dew nor rain shall descend from thence to make the earth fruitful; but, on the contrary, an heat should be reflected, which would parch it, and make it barren:

Targum Lev 26:19-20 [Aramaic translation of the Hebrew OT 200+ years before Christ.]

And I will break down the glory of the strength of your sanctuary, and will make the heavens above you obdurate as iron, to yield no moisture, nor send you dew or rain, and the ground beneath you to be like brass to put forth (only) to destroy its fruit. And your strength shall be consumed in vain, for your land shall not yield what you bestow upon it, and the tree upon the face of the field shall drop its fruit.

John Gill commentary lev 26:19
and I will make your heaven as iron; so that neither dew nor rain shall descend from thence to make the earth fruitful; but, on the contrary, an heat should be reflected, which would parch it, and make it barren:

and your earth as brass; that the seed could not be cast into it, nor anything spring out of it, for the service of man and beast, so that a famine must unavoidably follow.

Keil and Delitszch Hebrew commentary
God would make their heaven (the sky of their land) like iron and their earth like brass, i.e., as hard and dry as metal, so that not a drop of rain and dew would fall from heaven to moisten the earth, and not a plant could grow out of the earth (cf. Deu_28:23); and when the land was cultivated, the people would exhaust their strength for nought. תָּמַם, consumi.

Matthew Henry commentary
(Lev_26:19): I will make your heaven as iron, letting fall no rain, but reflecting heat, and then the earth would of course be as dry and hard as brass, and their labour in ploughing and sowing would be in vain (Lev_26:20); for the increase of the earth depends upon God's good providence more than upon man's good husbandry.​
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by parousia70
God warns Israel that she must listen and obey Him in the commandments that He has given them. God uses various terms and expressions in describing what it will be like if they despise His statutes, but notice particularly verse 19: "and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass."

Notice how the character of Israel's disposition in God's view is personalized, "YOUR heaven" and "YOUR earth." So the terms "heaven" and "earth" belong or relate to Israel, they evidently constitute a "heaven" and "earth."

Who is God speaking to here the physical creation? No, he is speaking to Israel.

The time of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth that is referred to here, was performed by God when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a covenant nation. He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth the order, and government of Israel.
Nice try but I have to give you a fail. None of these scriptures refer to the people or the land of Israel as heaven.
I would think the apostate unbelieving Jews of today would disagree with that if they believed JESUS was indeed their Messiah.;)
You have your head in the sand.

How Heaven and Earth Passed Away
:)


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number G285 matches the Greek ἄμμος (ammos), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance

Matt 7:26
"And every the one hearing of Me these words and no doing them,
shall be likened to a stupid/foolish man, who-any builds of him the House upon the sand.

Romans 9:27
"Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the number of the sons of Israel as the sand of the Sea,
the Remnant shall be being saved'".
[Isaiah 10:22,23/Daniel 12/Reve 20:8]

Reve 20:8
and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the Four Corners of the Land, the Gog and Magog,
to be together-assembling them into the battle of which the numberof them as the sand of the Sea.
[Ezekiel 7:1-2/Romans 9:27]


.
 
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Der Alte

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I would think the apostate unbelieving Jews of today would disagree with that if they believed JESUS was indeed their Messiah.;)
:)

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number G285 matches the Greek ἄμμος (ammos), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance

Matt 7:26
"And every the one hearing of Me these words and no doing them,
shall be likened to a stupid/foolish man, who-any builds of him the House upon the sand.

Romans 9:27
"Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the number of the sons of Israel as the sand of the Sea,
the Remnant shall be being saved'".
[Isaiah 10:22,23/Daniel 12/Reve 20:8]

Reve 20:8
and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the Four Corners of the Land, the Gog and Magog,
to be together-assembling them into the battle of which the numberof them as the sand of the Sea.
[Ezekiel 7:1-2/Romans 9:27]

See my post immediately above yours.
 
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parousia70

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Confirmation from an inspired apostle that the coming of The Lord in that generation, as prophesied by Jesus, had drawn near:

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for THE COMING OF THE LORD IS NEAR. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, THE JUDGE IS STANDING RIGHT AT THE DOOR. (James 5:7-9 NASB)

Could refer only to the imminent judgment of Israel and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

So I ask again, your contention is that Jesus Came and did those things?
 
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parousia70

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Why do you ask? Read your one proof text carefully.

You said that 'the coming of the lord" in James 5:8-9 could refer to Jerusalems' 70AD destruction.

How?
 
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Der Alte

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You said that 'the coming of the lord" in James 5:8-9 could refer to Jerusalems' 70AD destruction.

How?

Where did I specifically say "'the coming of the Lord' could refer to Jerusalem's destruction?"
 
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parousia70

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A lot of the stuff from your link has already been posted here. Just because some anonymous dood posts this on his website does not make it true. This verse does not refer to Israel as heaven.

Lev 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass and I will make your heaven as iron; so that neither dew nor rain shall descend from thence to make the earth fruitful; but, on the contrary, an heat should be reflected, which would parch it, and make it barren:

Targum Lev 26:19-20 [Aramaic translation of the Hebrew OT 200+ years before Christ.]

And I will break down the glory of the strength of your sanctuary, and will make the heavens above you obdurate as iron, to yield no moisture, nor send you dew or rain, and the ground beneath you to be like brass to put forth (only) to destroy its fruit. And your strength shall be consumed in vain, for your land shall not yield what you bestow upon it, and the tree upon the face of the field shall drop its fruit.

John Gill commentary lev 26:19
and I will make your heaven as iron; so that neither dew nor rain shall descend from thence to make the earth fruitful; but, on the contrary, an heat should be reflected, which would parch it, and make it barren:

and your earth as brass; that the seed could not be cast into it, nor anything spring out of it, for the service of man and beast, so that a famine must unavoidably follow.

Keil and Delitszch Hebrew commentary
God would make their heaven (the sky of their land) like iron and their earth like brass, i.e., as hard and dry as metal, so that not a drop of rain and dew would fall from heaven to moisten the earth, and not a plant could grow out of the earth (cf. Deu_28:23); and when the land was cultivated, the people would exhaust their strength for nought. תָּמַם, consumi.

Matthew Henry commentary
(Lev_26:19): I will make your heaven as iron, letting fall no rain, but reflecting heat, and then the earth would of course be as dry and hard as brass, and their labour in ploughing and sowing would be in vain (Lev_26:20); for the increase of the earth depends upon God's good providence more than upon man's good husbandry.​

So, Based on these commentaries you have offered to support your view, are you in agreement with the authors that the heaven and earth of Lev26:19 do NOT refer to the entire planet and entire cosmos, but only refer to the local land of Israel and Air above it at that time?
 
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Jack Terrence

Fighting the good fight
Feb 15, 2013
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You said that 'the coming of the lord" in James 5:8-9 could refer to Jerusalems' 70AD destruction.
Jerusalem's 70AD destruction is the only coming James could have been speaking about. James said that Christ's coming was "at the door."
 
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