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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DennisTate, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. Yes

    13 vote(s)
    41.9%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    51.6%
  3. I am not sure but I am looking into this.

    2 vote(s)
    6.5%
  1. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Some commentators think Paul was referring to himself there. If so it would seem that the only one who had this experience were Paul and John, both apostles. I guess it's possible for someone else to have one. I don't know what purpose God would have for doing so. A lot of these "experiences" that I read of describe things that aren't Biblical which is another reason I tend to doubt them.
     
  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Act 14:19


    Then Jews from Antioch and Iconium came there; and having persuaded the multitudes, they stoned Paul anddragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.

    However, when the disciples gathered around him, he rose up and went into the city. And the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.
     
  3. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I'm not sure where you're going with this passage
     
  4. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    If Paul appeared dead...... maybe he had a near death experience himself at that time.... .This might be what he was writing about in 2 Corinthians 12 ???
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I guess all we can do is speculate.
     
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    True.... but some of our speculations could well assist somebody to decide to go to church and make their peace with their Creator in the best way that they can figure out how to do?
     
  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Could the extreme chutzpah prayers of Pastor Todd Burpo on behalf of his son while he was in a coma have given Messiah Yeshua - Jesus a reason to intervene in human affairs at a whole new level?????
     
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Or.... the denominations have lost much of the understanding of the scriptures that the first century Messianic Jewish and Messianic Gentile community had?????

    Or..... some near death experiences are with fallen angels if... the person who is having a brush with death goes off in a wrong direction...... Former Skeptic Howard Storm says that he was deceived into going downward during the first part of his brush with death.

    Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience
     
  9. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    My wife at the age of 3 was taken up to heaven. She saw many things and also met the Lord. Her family were not Christian and she had no theological background, and didn't set eyes on a bible till she was 18. Then as she read the description of the heavenly city, she realised it was exactly as she had visited as a child.

    Throughout history, there have been millions of people who have had such experiences, (for good or for evil), yet so called theologians continue to claim that it's either not possible, or it's entirely demonic. If out of body experiences are entirely demonic, then, how come Satan can do it, but God can't? But we know that such experiences are possible with God because the bible shows it. And there is no scriptural indication that such things have ceased.
     
  10. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Great post.... thank you immensely!

    I've been scratching my head for years wondering why so many Theologians seem to be against these experiences and I do think that denominationalism is a big part of the reason.

    Maybe some people think that Pastor Todd Burpo's son should not have been sent back from heaven due to their not believing that a Westlian pastor could have such a powerful miracle take place after he prayed with such boldness and chutzpah???
     
  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    After the twenty four minute mark in the near death experience account of
    Dean Braxton he talks about their being animals in heaven who were glad that
    he was there in heaven!

    This is verification for one important part of the Colton Burpo testimony of his
    brush with death.



    Dean Braxton - Testimony From A Man Who Died For 1 Hour And 45 Minutes And Went To Heaven
     
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I don't see how this is evidence for anything. He believes he's going to Heaven. People don't Heaven. What he's saying isn't even Biblical.
     
  13. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Notice what Jesus said. He said He would come back again so that they could be with Him. Previous to this He had told them that where He was going they could not go.

    33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Jn. 13:33 KJV)
     
  14. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    The context of this passage shows it has absolutely nothing to do with whether Christians go to heaven or not. From verse1 onwards, the passage is leading directly to the crucifixion, and obviously the disciples could not go with him, even if they thought they were able (ie. Peter's vain promise to lay down his life for Jesus.)

    John13v31Therefore when he had gone out, Jesus says, “Now the Son of Man has been glorified, and God has been glorified in Him. 32If God is glorified in Him, God also will glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately.

    33Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek Me, and as I said to the Jews, now I say also to you: ‘Where I go, you are not able to come.’

    Jesus went through the vicarious judgement and death on their behalf, so they could avoid such judgement! To extract from these words a doctrine that believers don't get to heaven is truly an abuse of the words.
     
  15. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You're partly right. It is leading up to the crucifixion. What happened after the crucifixion? He went away. They can't be with Him when He went away. How will they be with Him? He tells us. He said He would come again so that where He is they may be also. They could easily have followed Him in the crucifixion. As a matter of fact, according to history Peter did and was crucified upside down. The point is that in order for them to be with Him He had to return. They weren't going to Him, He was coming to them.

    Couple that with the fact that there is not a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven and we have evidence that people don't go to Heaven.
     
  16. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    No, I am completely right!
    Jesus clearly states that he was going back to His Father in order to prepare a place for them, also stating that his Father's house has many dwelling places. And just where does Jesus's Father dwell, in Heaven of course!
    John14v2In My Father’s house are many rooms. (His Father house was in Heaven)

    If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? (A place with His Father in Heaven)

    3And if I go and prepare a place for you, (In Heaven where His Father dwells)

    I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. (With him Heaven, in those many dwelling places, with Jesus's Father)

    And where is Jesus now, in Heaven of course!
    So if we are going to be with Jesus, that means in the dwelling places he prepared for us, in Heaven, with His Father!
    Again, taking what Jesus said completely out of context, and slotting it elsewhere to manipulate its meaning. The straight forward literal meaning is the right and only one.
    He was coming for them alright, to take them to his own Heavenly home.
    "Not a single passage of scripture?" Haha, obviously you conveniently skipped over what Jesus said in John13 and 14. Do you always do that with the bits that contradict your dogma?
    You have no such evidence!
     
  17. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Actually, your not 100% correct. Jesus had told them where He was going they could not go. You misinterpret John 14. If you look through the Scriptures Jesus' reference to "My Father's house" is the temple. Nowhere in Scripture is Heaven ever called "My Father's house". To claim such has no basis at all in Scripture. Further evidence is seen from His statement 'In My Father's house there are many dwellings'. The dwellings in the Temple were small living spaces for the priests who served at the temple. This is what Jesus was referencing.

    2 Now the house which King Solomon built for the LORD, its length was sixty cubits, its width twenty, and its height thirty cubits.
    3 The vestibule in front of the sanctuary1 of the house was twenty cubits long across the width of the house, and the width of the vestible2 extended ten cubits from the front of the house.
    4 And he made for the house windows with beveled frames.
    5 Against the wall of the temple he built chambers all around, against the walls of the temple, all around the sanctuary and the inner sanctuary1. Thus he made side chambers all around it.
    6 The lowest chamber was five cubits wide, the middle was six cubits wide, and the third was seven cubits wide; for he made narrow ledges around the outside of the temple, so that the support beams would not be fastened into the walls of the temple.
    7 And the temple, when it was being built, was built with stone finished at the quarry, so that no hammer or chisel or any iron tool was heard in the temple while it was being built.
    8 The doorway for the middle story1 was on the right side of the temple. They went up by stairs to the middle story, and from the middle to the third.
    9 So he built the temple and finished it, and he paneled the temple with beams and boards of cedar.
    10 And he built side chambers against the entire temple, each five cubits high; they were attached to the temple with cedar beams.
    11 Then the word of the LORD ca (1 Ki. 6:2-11 NKJ)

    As I said, there is not a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven.
    We have Jesus telling the Jews and His disciples that they could not go where He was going. Then He went to the Father. "My Father's house" is the Temple. Nowhere is Scripture is Heaven every called "My Father's house". It seems pretty clear.
     
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