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Featured Friends of yours watch Heaven Is For Real and ask you about it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DennisTate, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. Yes

    13 vote(s)
    41.9%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    51.6%
  3. I am not sure but I am looking into this.

    2 vote(s)
    6.5%
  1. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I did answer your question. The dead have no soul. A soul is a living person. The dead are not a living person. The words translated soul are also translated life in the Scriptures. The dead have no life, that's why they're called the dead. If they had life they'd be called the living.
     
  2. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    The soul is our very being. The soul doesnt die with our bodies. All those in heaven are not 'alive' then? The multitude worshipping God? Etc?
     
  3. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Not according to Scripture. A soul is a living physical being. It consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God. When God's breath leaves the body the living person (soul) dies and longer exists. The body returns to the dust and God's breath, the life that was in man, returns to Him. The soul is not immortal. Paul said in 1 Timothy that the Father alone has immortality. That means man doesn't. There is no human spirit. Since Scripture tells us that God's breath returns to Him and the body returns to the dust we can see that there is nothing left to live on after death.

    What you're espousing is Greek philosophy.
     
  4. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    So, the Souls in heaven dont exist? They are dead? Unreal?
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    What souls in Heaven? Read Genesis 2:7. God breathed the breath of life into the man and the man became a living soul. That shows us that a soul consists of a body and the breath of God. When you take one part of the soul away, you no longer have a soul. Take water and remove the oxygen and see if you still have water. You won't.

    The idea that a "soul" is a disembodied consciousness doesn't come from the Bible. It was a popular belief among the Greeks. That's how it entered into the Church. You won't find it in the Bible. Its Greek Philosphy.
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    The soul apart from the body doesn't exist. A soul is a living being. See Gen 2:7. The soul is not something that lives on after death. When people die they are dead. That's why they're called the dead. If they were alive they'd be called the living.
     
  7. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    You have a strange belief my friend
     
  8. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    It's actually a fairly common view. Google Conditional Mortality.
     
  9. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    Not Christian though!
     
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Sure it is.
     
  11. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    You have strange views my dear friend!
     
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Not at all. Think about it. I'm telling you dead.people.are dead. You're telling me daad people are alive. Which one is strange?
     
  13. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    Yours!

    God bless you
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Really?You think saying dead people are dead is strange?
     
  15. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I gave you the wrong info. Google conditional Immortality
     
  16. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH Newbie Supporter

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    The scriptures teach that upon death man is conscious in the intermediate or disembodied state. The following passages in there context will demonstrate this to be true that the soul or spirit of man is conscience during this period prior to the final resurrection. First we will look at Matthew 17 1-3.


    Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if you wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah." 5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!" 6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, "Get up, and do not be afraid." 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.

    9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

    First we know from scripture that Moses was buried Deut 34:5-6. Even though Moses was “dead” he was conscious, able to talk and converse with Jesus and Elijah. We can see that in the afterlife (post death) Moses was very alive and conscious.

    The next passage is Luke 23:39-43

    One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the 2 Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

    Jesus in this passage assures the criminal that on this very day he would be with Jesus in Paradise. That very day the thief’s body “died” but he was with Christ in Paradise. Now when we examine another passage that Jesus taught about Paradise we see some interesting things.

    Luke 16:19-31
    19
    "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house — 28 for I have five brothers — in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

    Jesus here lets us know there is conscious existence in Paradise. Some may object by saying this is a parable. This would be the only time Jesus used actual names in a parable so this could be an actual event, but even if it is only a parable there are some simple basic truths to be mines from this story or event. We see Lazarus and Abraham identified in this place. What we learn is there is conscious existence and both pain, suffering as well as comfort and joy depending on which side one is on in Sheol or Hades. So according to Jesus own teaching and authority there is conscience existence in Paradise.

    Now lets examine a passage in Acts 7:55-60.

    55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing C at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. 58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses C laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

    Here we see that according to Stephen death is victory not defeat. He does not ask the grave to receive him but Christ. He sees Jesus in heaven and asks Him to receive his soul or spirit. At the very moment upon his death Jesus received him. Stephen did not look to the grave (unconscious existence) but to heaven upon his martyrdom. The immaterial part of Stephen his soul/spirit left his body and departed to be with Jesus. As Paul who witnessed this murder was later to say that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord.

    As we see later in many of Paul’s writings he viewed his death as his entrance to be with Christ in heaven.

    Phil 1:23-25
    23
    But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

    Rom 8:38-39
    38
    For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

    1 Thess 5:10-11
    10
    who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.


    The context of the next passage Paul is dealing with death in the context. We see this from 4:11-12,16.

    2 Cor 5:1-10
    For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is C mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

    6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord — 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight — 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and B to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

    Here we see that man has a perishable body (outer man) and a transcendent soul(inner man) which goes on after the death of the body. The place of “dwelling” is something the believer has now in the heavens verse 1. We have (present tense) a building not will have. The scripture never speaks of man already having a resurrected body awaiting him in heaven. This can only mean that Paul is referring to the souls dwelling in heaven. Death is described as the leaving of the soul to dwell in another place. We see in many other places in scripture that heaven is referred to as having many dwelling places, mansions and described as a city. John 14:2, Hebrews 11:10 and Rev 21;10.

    Paul describes the dwelling place after death as in the heavens- 2 Cor 5:1. Where Christ is 5:8, and Paul talks about his desire to depart and be in Christ’s presence in heaven after his death. Phil 1:23.

    Phil 1:21-25
    21
    For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

    There is no passage as clear as this one about the believer going to be with Jesus upon his death. We can see in the book of Hebrews that it refers to the “spirits made righteous” who are in heaven. These souls are with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem. Here we see the souls of the departed (at death) are not sleeping but on the contrary are conscious and worshipping the Lord in heaven.

    Heb 12:22-24
    22
    But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

    Below we see there are SOULS in heaven who were killed on earth

    Revelation 6:9-10
    When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”


    Eccl 12:5-7
    For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street. 6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  17. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Sorry but none of those passages teach that. You already believe it when you come to the text so it seems that way to you. None of these passages tell us that dead people are conscious. They're called the dead because they're dead.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
  18. Bob Carabbio

    Bob Carabbio Old guy -

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    Why react AT ALL??? Born again Christians are already fully aware by FAITH that Heaven is real, and the lost are more concerned about what color to paint the walls in their bathroom, being BLIND to the Kingdom of God, which is only discernable with spiritual eyes.

    If anybody asks me (which nobody ever has) what I think, I'll just tell 'em that heaven is my eternal home, and I'll find out about it when I get there.
     
  19. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH Newbie Supporter

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    Like Burger King says you can have it your way.

    I can’t convince you of the truth. God must open your eyes.

    The Bible never mentions the “ Trinity “ either but nevertheless it’s implied and it’s true.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    …..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
    Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    [ . . . ]
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself, is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
    …..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
    …..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

    …..The jews considered this passage to be factual.

    Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
    “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
    GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
    …..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
    Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Eze 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
    Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
    Luk 16:22-28
    (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


     
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