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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DennisTate, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. Yes

    13 vote(s)
    41.9%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    51.6%
  3. I am not sure but I am looking into this.

    2 vote(s)
    6.5%
  1. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I understand the word spirit. It is a metaphorical use of the word. I'm not sure where you got this definition but it's not correct. Psuche means soul, not spirit. Pneuma is spirit or more literally wind or breath. It is the breath or spirit of life that returns to God. It's His breath. The breath or spirit of life doesn't die, It's part of God. It also doesn't await resurrection or condemnation. Read Gen 2:7 and you'll see what a soul is. It consists of the body and the breath of life. When a person, soul, dies, the breath or spirit of life returns to God and the body returns to the dust. At the resurrection, the body will be raised by God once again infusing it with His breath or spirit of life. It will then be judged and dealt with accordingly.
     
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  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    He was translated, ie moved to another location just as Elijah was and Phillip was. He didn't die when he was translated. That he was translated or transposed means he was put somewhere else. That doesn't mean he didn't later die. Paul tells us that he did in fact die.

    5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
    6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
    8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
    11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
    12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Heb. 11:5-13 KJV)

    Unless you're going to argue that Paul contradicted himself in just few sentences you're going to have to harmonize his statements. I've done that. You're statement contradicts this. Note also that the passage doesn't say Enoch went up.
     
  3. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Huh??
    Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”
    Defining the word "Spirit":

    G4151 πνεῦμα pneuma From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.

    G5590 ψυχή psuchē From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

    H7307 רוּחַ rûach From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

    H5315 נֶפֶשׁ nephesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.


    H2416 חַי chay From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

    H2421 חָיָה châyâh A prim root (compare H2331, H2424); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively to revive: - keep (leave, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.
     
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I'm not sure what you point is. Your post shows that spirit is a figurative use for the word pneuma. A rational or living soul consists of the breath or spirit of God and the body. The spirit is part of the soul, not the soul itself. What you're reading is someone's opinion of what these words mean. Is it helpful? Sure. Is it infallible? No. When the definition doesn't align with the Scriptures the definition is wrong. Genesis 1 and 2 clearly define what a soul is. And, it's not a spirit.
     
  5. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Agreed, the words are flawless: Psalm 12:6 And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.

    Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul [G5590 life], and with all your mind.' (38) This is the first and great commandment.

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. H5315 נֶפֶשׁ nephesh From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal

    Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

    H7307 rûach רוּחַ From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit; but only of a rational being.

    Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath [G4157 πνοή ], and all things; G4157 πνοή pnoē From G4154; respiration

    G4151 [πνεῦμα] pneuma From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind.

    Genesis 27:31 And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy [soul H5315 נֶפֶשׁ ] may bless me.

    Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul [ H5315 נֶפֶשׁ ] will I destroy from among his people.

    2Ch 34:31 And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul [ H5315 נֶפֶשׁ ], to perform the words of the covenant which are written in this book.

    Psa 35:9 And my soul [ H5315 נֶפֶשׁ ] shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.
    Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul [G5590 ψυχή psuchē] from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
    G5590 ψυχή psuchē From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315]

    3Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul [G5590 ψυχή ] prospereth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Do you think that the soul is conscious after death?

    Do you think that the soul can go through higher invisible dimensions of space and time?
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    The answer to both would be no. According to Genesis 2 a soul is a living being infused with the breath of life from God. Once the breath of life is gone there is no soul.
     
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    There are many interesting scriptures that indicate that there is more to this subject though.

    Revelation 6 indicates that the saints who were martyred certainly have a level of consciousness after death... but before the First Resurrection where they are given bodies again and will reign on the earth....

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    9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled [their course].
     
  9. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Hi Dennis, Yes, there are passages where the idea of disembodied existence could be read into them. However, we also need to look at the passages that teach us about the dead. This passage in Rev 6 isn't teaching about the state of the dead. It's a future revelation that John was seeing. We have to remember to that Scriptures do use figurative language. In the book of Revelation Jesus is portrayed as a lamb that had been slain that had 7 eyes. We know that Jesus didn't really look like a lamb. Babylon is depicted as a whore. A city can't be a whore. What we need to do is to look at the totality of Scripture to see what is taught on the subject of the dead. I've studied and debated this topic for several years. So, I have looked at the passages in question.

    We also have passages such as David saying that the dead know nothing. We have to ask, if the dead know nothing, then how can they be conscious? If they know nothing how can they speak, how do they know God? David also indicates that the dead cannot praise God. We have passages that seem to be in conflict with one another. We have to reconcile these passages if we believe that the word of God is without error. If we do a serious study of the passages that seem to indicate that the dead are conscious we find that each of the passages can be understood differently and in a way that doesn't require the dead to be conscious, thus eliminating the perceived conflict. For example, one passage that often gets brought up is that of Samuel. Saul is said to be speaking to Samuel. However, if we study the passage closely we find that neither the word spirit nor soul is ever used in that passage. Instead what the woman saw was gods. The passage uses the term elohim. This word is used of false gods. We also have to remember that the woman had an evil spirit in her. It's recorded in the book of 1 Chronicles that Saul died because he sought information from the evil spirit.

    13 And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, -- (1 Chr. 10:13 YLT)

    We see that it wasn't Samuel that Saul was speaking with, but rather a demon.
     
  10. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Twenty one years ago I would have used pretty much exactly that same argument........
    but there are TWO variations on the Word of God......
    one is scriptures.....
    the second one is the CREATION.....

    Many of the parables of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus were explanations on how the Creation was a second form of the Word of God.....

    Near death experience accounts.... especially those that include a Life Review which is promised in the Word of God (scriptures0.....
    are a part of the Creation / Word of God and also need to be considered in studying any subject.


     
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I'm not sure what you're getting at with near death experiences. They are subjective and unable to prove. However, someone who has a near death experience isn't dead so I'm not sure how that would tell us about the state of the dead.
     
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Personally.... back in 1990 I concluded that to put the teachings of my church above the evidence from both parts of the Word of God might have been a form of idolatry...... but that is me....and I can understand why you would feel differently..... it really took me about five years to wade through all the relevant scriptures and compare them with near death experience accounts.... that fit with so many scriptures........ The clearest of which is
    2 Corinthians 12
    verses 2 - 4

    2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.

    3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth), 4 how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
     
  13. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I don't put church teachings above the word. The reason I dismiss NDE's is because there is no way to verify them, but more importantly, what I find in Scripture flatly denies them. When I look at the creation of man I see that God created him from the dust of the earth. This tells me that man consists of the elements of the earth. Then God breathed into the man His breath or spirit of life and the man became a living soul. This tells me that a soul consists of the man of dust and the breath or spirit of life from God. We're also told in Scripture that when a man dies that the breath or spirit returns to God and the man returns to the dust. Since there are only two parts to man and one is God's breath or spirit. When that returns to Him nothing is left but the man, dust of the earth. There is nothing left to live on after death. You see, these NDE's require that man is something more than the dust of the earth, that there is a part of man that is capable of living on after death. However, when we see how God created man we see that there is nothing left to live on.

    A lot of people believe man can live on after death because they come to the Scriptures with that preconception. Then they see passages that look like they could fit that idea. In the Scriptures we're told that the Sadducees didn't believe in an afterlife and the Pharisees believed in a resurrection. If there was some kind of conscious existence after death apart from the Resurrection one has to wonder why the people who had God's word didn't believe it. We know for sure that Paul didn't believe it. He stated to the Corinthians when they were mourning over Christians who had died that if there is no resurrection they had perished. Perished. He didn't say, don't worry about them, they're in heaven or they're with the Lord. He said that if there is no resurrection they're gone. That shows us clearly that Paul didn't believe in a conscious existence apart from the body.

    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

    There are a lot more passages that show that the dead are in fact dead. The idea that the dead live on defies the Scriptures which say, so and so died. If the real man is not the body but rather some disembodied consciousness then so and so didn't really die, they just moved on. But that's not what the Scriptures say, they say people died.

    Another reason I don't hold to the disembodied consciousness is that Paul said in his letter to Timothy that the Father alone has immortality. That means that no one else does. The only way for one to live on after death would be for God to give them life. That's why the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment can't be true. Eternal life is promised to the believer, not the unbeliever.

    As I said, we have to reconcile the passages and I don't see any way that the plain statements can be understood differently that the plain English in which they're written

    Regarding the passage from 2 Cor. 12, I don't see anything there that would indicate anything about the dead. Being caught up to Paradise could simply be a vision or it could be that one was literally taken up into Paradise, but it doesn't say anything about the person being dead. Some commentators think Paul was talking about himself.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    It is interesting that you think this.................
    then you would at least somewhat identify with:


    "Heaven Is for Real" star Greg Kinnear on belief - CBS News
     
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Perhaps some of them are dead............ because the Lazarus precedent allows for Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to resurrect dead people if somebody, (or better yet a group of people), with faith prays for them.
     
  16. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Reposting this. Take it or leave it I don't care I'm not trying to proselytize anyone. I became a Christian when Johnson was president, Lyndon not Andrew. I am ordained and a seminary graduate.
    My first encounter with a near death experience [NDE] was in 1970. I was attending a military Officer's advance course. Everyone in the course had at least one tour in Vietnam. One of the officers told us about his NDE while in a medical facility in Vietnam after being seriously wounded in combat. I was very skeptical then and for many years afterward.
    .....Fast forward to 2009. I was scheduled for a "simple" 45 minute laparoscopic hernia repair. There were complications it turned into a 5 hour open surgery. I had afib, acute kidney failure, sepsis [major bacterial contamination] and ilieus [bowel blockage]. After that I am no longer skeptical of NDE accounts.
    .....I have seen nothing in the book or the movie which contradicts scripture.
     
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  18. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Yeah, but, many of the claims are that these people left their bodies and experienced something. It could be that they didn't leave their body, but rather had vision. The whole point though is that these are "Near" death experiences. Near death, is alive. A Person whose mind and body are under extreme stress could possibly imagine anything. That's why I say there's no way to prove it. Did they see a vision from God or was it just the mind playing tricks to escape the stress it's under?
     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    2 Corinthians 12
    leaves the door open for some sort of out of the body experience....
     
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