Free Will or Predestination

[Skala]

I recall many times before I was a believer I was in church during the end at the usual call to the altar, I often felt a struggle. Part of me wanted to go up, part of me resisted. I think one can and does resist, but I know when they stop resisting, you will then say it's because God made them stop. I'm afraid I'm beginning to see the predictable pattern in Calvinism I forgot about. It's coming back to me. A lot of splitting hairs is needed to make TULIP fit the bible

Where does the Bible say that an altar call is God "wooing" you to repent and believe?

 

[Robs07M6S]

not necessarily.

Really? explain please. Since you play no role in regeneration and it is an act that is done only by the grace of God I dont see how free will is possible in the sense that you choose to be born again before you are regenerated.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Where does the Bible say that an altar call is God "wooing" you to repent and believe?

I dont think that its found in the Bible but I can certainly relate to the enormous conviction that used to overwhelm me when the altar call was given. Its as the other person said, it was like an inward battle with part of me wanting to step out and the other part of me wanting to stay seated, I can even remember gripping the pew in front of me and trembling. If that wasnt the Holy Ghost then what was it?

 

[Robs07M6S]

Don't you see that your argument for free will is primarily one of rebellion, and defiance? To prove free will, it is said that one must be able to reject Christ. Well, men are born naturally in that state. Men are born fallen, they don't fall at some point later. So rebellion is man's natural state. And that natural state is bondage to sin. In what way can one in bondage be said to be free? Yet the "proof" of free will is rebellion.

Well, I know you dont agree but I believe the "unpardonable sin" is proof that fallen man can and does often reject the message of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Skala]

I dont think that its found in the Bible but I can certainly relate to the enormous conviction that used to overwhelm me when the altar call was given. Its as the other person said, it was like an inward battle with part of me wanting to step out and the other part of me wanting to stay seated, I can even remember gripping the pew in front of me and trembling. If that wasnt the Holy Ghost then what was it?

Emotions?

The Bible doesn't say "find the courage to stand up in a crowd and change geographical locations", it says to repent and believe.

When considering whether to repent and believe, no inward struggle of "should I stand up or not?" should be going on. You don't have to stand up to repent and believe.

 

[98cwitr]

Well, I know you dont agree but I believe the "unpardonable sin" is proof that fallen man can and does often reject the message of the Holy Ghost.

I would agree with that Rob

 

[Robs07M6S]

Emotions?

I dont think so, this was much more than mere human emotion. This was an inward struggle, conviction and I knew I needed to be saved. How else apart from the Holy Spirit could I even be aware that I needed to be saved Skala?

The Bible doesn't say "find the courage to stand up in a crowd and change geographical locations", it says to repent and believe.

I realize that, however it doesnt negate the inward battle that I personally experienced. Regardless if I went forward or not I agree is a mute point however something inside of me was clearly at a struggle.

 

[nobdysfool]

Well, I know you dont agree but I believe the "unpardonable sin" is proof that fallen man can and does often reject the message of the Holy Ghost.

Take a look at this thread....

 

[Robs07M6S]

Take a look at this thread....

I have read it before and dont fully agree with it as it clearly limits other passages which speak of the unpardonable sin and it certainly can be committed today, Hebrews are full of such warning passages and Jpark has the best response in that thread.

Only apostates, people who have experienced the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 6:4-6), can commit the unpardonable sin for the unpardonable sin is a sin of knowledge.

However, we can't dismiss the unpardonable sin as a dead sin. The unpardonable sin can be committed today!

One way I know of is by blaspheming the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:7-10).

 

[Robs07M6S]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a form of the unpardonable sin. Its a sin committed with knowledge and these mentioned here "while not being saved" had been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. John Mcarther states in this passage that these are people who get right to the edge of saving faith in Christ and then instead of coming to full faith in Christ choose to walk away from there former convictions. To do so is to harden your heart to the voice of the Holy Spirit and to continue in that path is to come to a place that one day repentance is impossible.


See also Heb 10:26-31.

 

[nobdysfool]

I have read it before and dont fully agree with it as it clearly limits other passages which speak of the unpardonable sin and it certainly can be committed today, Hebrews are full of such warning passages and Jpark has the best response in that thread.

He's mostly right. the Unpardonable sin is not and cannot be unbelief. Yet many today try to teach that it is. As for the Hebrews passage, there was an answer in that thread by JesusFreak5000 that was mostly ignored, but I think he had a handle on it. It is good to remember that the entire book of Hebrews was directed to....Hebrews. Jews. And it addresses things specific to the Jewish faith. It might help to keep that perspective....

 

[Robs07M6S]

He's mostly right. the Unpardonable sin is not and cannot be unbelief. Yet many today try to teach that it is. As for the Hebrews passage, there was an answer in that thread by JesusFreak5000 that was mostly ignored, but I think he had a handle on it. It is good to remember that the entire book of Hebrews was directed to....Hebrews. Jews. And it addresses things specific to the Jewish faith. It might help to keep that perspective....

Yeah its a difficult book for sure with many many different commentaries, lol.

I agree about the audience that it was written too, I just dont agree however that we should ignore those passages and claim that they do not apply to us because I certainly believe that they do.

 

[Robs07M6S]

He's mostly right. the Unpardonable sin is not and cannot be unbelief.

I fully agree and find it absured when people say that because if unbelief was the unpardonable sin then no one would be saved since we were all unbelievers at one time or another.

Unbelief until you are dead will surly put you in hell but that isnt the unpardonable sin either. The Holy Spirit is in the world with his ministry today convicting of sins, righteousness and judgement. I believe when a person continually rejects what the Holy Spirit is telling him then he places himself in a dangerous position in which he hardens his heart to the voice of God and if he continues in this path he/she will eventually come to a place of no return and will have committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.


Why is the sin unpardonable you say? because without the convicting power of the Holy Ghost you are rendered helpless and cannot repent. Hebrews 12:15-17.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Why does everyone always split when the conversation gets deep and difficult? Or do I just have an uncanny ability at running people off? Im beginning to develop a complex.

 

[WinBySurrender]

Why does everyone always split when the conversation gets deep and difficult? Or do I just have an uncanny ability at running people off? Im beginning to develop a complex.

Personally, I split when it gets repetitive and testy. Maybe that's the same thing as deep and difficult around here, I don't know.

 

[iLogos]

It is amazing how each side can get so ornery, or would they call that passionate around here

 

[His_disciple3]

It is amazing how each side can get so ornery, or would they call that passionate around here

ornery would be fleshly, passionate would be spiritual, you make the call. But remember search your own heart before you do others!

 

[iLogos]

ornery would be fleshly, passionate would be spiritual, you make the call. But remember search your own heart before you do others!

some times that's a tough call

 

[twin1954]

Why does everyone always split when the conversation gets deep and difficult? Or do I just have an uncanny ability at running people off? Im beginning to develop a complex.

I haven't split Rob. I read every one of your posts. Well I may have missed a few.

I only post when I think I have something worth listening to or may be helpful. I am not interested in arguing with those who aren't intersted in hearing.

 

[DeaconDean]

As for the Hebrews passage, there was an answer in that thread by JesusFreak5000 that was mostly ignored, but I think he had a handle on it. It is good to remember that the entire book of Hebrews was directed to....Hebrews. Jews. And it addresses things specific to the Jewish faith. It might help to keep that perspective....

I have brought that same thing to light here in the Hebrews thread and in the same thread in the Soteriology area.

And yet, that was glossed over.



God Bless

Till all are one.