Free Will or Predestination

[iLogos]

How come when I mention A.W. Pink, nobody thinks or even reacts to it, but somebody else mentions him, that is the greatest thing since sliced bread.



God Bless

Till all are one.

Did u say some thing Dean?

While I like Pink, I think LORAINE BOETTNER -The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination is also verry good. May be it's just the writing style, they both pretty much say the same thing, but Boettner flows differently.

Both are good reads.

 

[Hammster]

Romans 12:1-2
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV

I preach Romans 12:1-2 probably more than any other verses, so we were preaching on them this past Sunday, And the thought came to me, that this was yet another Black eye for calvinist, For ( Paul, the one that calvinists says preached the Doctrine of total depravity) Or that is according to calvinist, (Or other wise known as the "T" in t.u.l.i.p.). But in Romans 12:1-2 Paul states the good and acceptable, the perfect "WILL OF GOD" However Paul Is found here BEGGING the ELECT/brethren, to do the will of God. IF Paul taught that God was the sole controller of Men and men had no say what they believed or what they did ( as the calvinist says Paul preached this, along with Jesus also preaching this, then why is Paul begging, someone to do the perfect will of God, If God would force someone into heaven by predetermined election, Would He not have them do His perfect and acceptable will of God in their life? and If paul knew this and preached that everyone has to do the will of God, why is he found begging them to do the right things in life in Romans 12?. so 1 John the whole world either don't mean what scriptures says, and calvinist are right, about "L" limited atonement. or the whole world does mean what is says and we have to spell the calvinist doctrine of Grace T.U.I.P. and now Paul Here knows that not even all the elect will always do the perfect will of God and is found begging them to do the will of God, so either this don't mean what is says or the Bible does mean what is says, and we now have to spell the doctrine of Grace according to calvinist U.I.P. and to me according to Romans 12:1-2 it does appear that man has some control in the way they live their lives!!

Election, predestination, and sanctification are three separate things. They are not synonymous. Paul is talking about sanctification. I will assume that this was an honest misunderstanding of what we believe scripture teaches. So I expect that you won't make this same error again. Remember, no matter how strongly you disagree with another view, to deliberately misrepresent that view is lying.

 

[Hammster]

How come when I mention A.W. Pink, nobody thinks or even reacts to it, but somebody else mentions him, that is the greatest thing since sliced bread.



God Bless

Till all are one.

Seriously?

 

[DeaconDean]

Seriously?

One person here has posted a thread about Heb. 10, here and in the Soteriology area.

The exact same thread.

And in both, I quoted A.W. Pink, from his "Exposition of Hebrews".

And it just went right over some heads.

Mention his name here, and the accolates start.

Why?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Robs07M6S]

One person here has posted a thread about Heb. 10, here and in the Soteriology area.

The exact same thread.

And in both, I quoted A.W. Pink, from his "Exposition of Hebrews".

And it just went right over some heads.

Mention his name here, and the accolates start.

Why?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean im sorry, I didnt intentionally look over your post. I promise to go back and give it a look over, when my mind is torn into so many different directions its hard for me to catch it all. Most of this due to a attention deficet disorder and some other issues. Again my apologies.

 

[Hammster]

One person here has posted a thread about Heb. 10, here and in the Soteriology area.

The exact same thread.

And in both, I quoted A.W. Pink, from his "Exposition of Hebrews".

And it just went right over some heads.

Mention his name here, and the accolates start.

Why?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Nm

 

[iLogos]

One person here has posted a thread about Heb. 10, here and in the Soteriology area.

The exact same thread.

And in both, I quoted A.W. Pink, from his "Exposition of Hebrews".

And it just went right over some heads.

Mention his name here, and the accolates start.

Why?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Perhaps it was the quote and the question in response to? I dunno. I've already read lines from Mr. Pink I really do not care for and others I like.

Skala has on several occasions told me about Pink's book and I filed it in my "a huh sure ok" file. Where it stayed until I finally decided to google it.

Some times it takes more then once, and yes, delivery is important. Making one quote which perhaps may or may not be a appropriate response to a question won't guarantee acceptance or agreement as we all well know in debate forums.

I'm reading Mr. Pink's book now and will respond to it when I'm completed. I'm also reading Boettner's Reformed Doctrine of Predestination too.

That I am reading both of these books with open mind is also no guarantee I will agree with every thing they each say.

At first I thought you were just kidding, if your actually upset please don't be. Even though we do not see eye to eye on every thing, I do value your opinion and appreciate your contributions!

 

[Vince53]

"You say that Predestination doesn't refer to salvation. What do you think it refers to?"

The Bible tells us that everyone who accepts Christ is predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, and is predestined to the adoption of sons. Period.

Predestination to Heaven to Hell, to accept Christ, to reject Christ, to repent, or to believe are philosophies of men not found in the Scriptures.

God's Word tells us that Jesus draws all men to Himself, that the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them, that Jesus enlightens every man who comes into the world, that God grants repentance to both Israel and the Gentiles, and that the grace of God that brings salvation appears to all men.

 

[Hammster]

"You say that Predestination doesn't refer to salvation. What do you think it refers to?"

The Bible tells us that everyone who accepts Christ is predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, and is predestined to the adoption of sons. Period.

Predestination to Heaven to Hell, to accept Christ, to reject Christ, to repent, or to believe are philosophies of men not found in the Scriptures.

God's Word tells us that Jesus draws all men to Himself, that the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them, that Jesus enlightens every man who comes into the world, that God grants repentance to both Israel and the Gentiles, and that the grace of God that brings salvation appears to all men.

Those who are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son are called. Context, context, context.

 

[His_disciple3]

Election, predestination, and sanctification are three separate things. They are not synonymous. Paul is talking about sanctification. I will assume that this was an honest misunderstanding of what we believe scripture teaches. So I expect that you won't make this same error again. Remember, no matter how strongly you disagree with another view, to deliberately misrepresent that view is lying.

I think you missed my point, Paul show in these scriptures Romans 12:1-2 what is the perfect will of God, but begs the brethren/ the elect to do the will of God, The Sovereign God Of the Calvinist will force someone to have faith in Him but won't force them to do the will of God, in that Paul has to beg them to do so?


so educate me, Are you saying that if you are one of the elect, it is up to you to keep yourself sanctified/saved , and if you don't do the will Of God, For Paul clearly begs the brethren/elect to do the will of God which shows that Paul knew that some would not do the will of God, so to those that are elect if they don't do the perfect will of God are they still elect or do they become one of the non-elect? what saith you hammster? are you saying that the elect can do something that would make the election of John Calvin's Sovereign God void? Or do you stand with the true calvinist and say if it is the will of God: It will be done. which would disagree with paul seeing that He is not telling the elect that they will do the will of God, but rather begging them to do the will of God , please inform us hammster which way do you see it?

 

[His_disciple3]

"You say that Predestination doesn't refer to salvation. What do you think it refers to?"

The Bible tells us that everyone who accepts Christ is predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, and is predestined to the adoption of sons. Period.

Predestination to Heaven to Hell, to accept Christ, to reject Christ, to repent, or to believe are philosophies of men not found in the Scriptures.

God's Word tells us that Jesus draws all men to Himself, that the Father draws all men to Christ by teaching them, that Jesus enlightens every man who comes into the world, that God grants repentance to both Israel and the Gentiles, and that the grace of God that brings salvation appears to all men.

hello vince. You are forgetting one very important factor, to calvinist in order for them to get the scriptures to line up with their doctrine "EVERY" don't mean "EVERY" and "ALL" don't mean "ALL" in plain language the word of God don't mean what it says and John Calvin is the final authority, who has individually interpreted, what "EVERY" truely means and what "ALL truely means. oh yeah' and Jesus didn't die for the "WHOLE WORLD" as the Bible says in 1 John 2

 

[iLogos]

I'm not even a Calvinist and I know how that would be answered,

remember Calvinism does not deny the soul or the heart.

(Prov 16:9 [NKJV])
A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

What Paul is really saying is not to grieve the Holy Spirit. Don't resist the Spirit if He is moving you in a certain direction which may not be immediately apparent to you.

It's not like we are puppets on a string.

If God wanted to He certainly could force the issue or His Will in this case on us, but would rather we see it and understand it.

What Paul is saying is to be open willing and ready to follow God's Will.

Are we all there? Hardly. So God often has to nudge us a little harder some times if need be. The point is if God wanted us to do some thing, we could not truly refuse. Paul is saying don't refuse.

Either that or they will say we are not interpreting the scripture correctly.

 

[twin1954]

You guys are reasoning in the wrong direction. You start with man and reason up to God. You must start with God and reason down to man. The whole argument about free- will is reasoning up from man to God. If you really want to know where to start first find out who God is and then you will have no problem with seeing where man is .

 

[iLogos]

You guys are reasoning in the wrong direction. You start with man and reason up to God. You must start with God and reason down to man. The whole argument about free- will is reasoning up from man to God. If you really want to know where to start first find out who God is and then you will have no problem with seeing where man is .

ahh that clears it up once and for all, guess we can close the thread now

(sorry for the sarcasm, couldn't resist this time)

 

[DeaconDean]

Nm

Say it brother.

You know you don't have to hold back on me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[twin1954]

ahh that clears it up once and for all, guess we can close the thread now

(sorry for the sarcasm, couldn't resist this time)

You can't get mad at blind people because they can't see.

 

[iLogos]

You can't get mad at blind people because they can't see.

True, even if they are attempting to lead

 

[iLogos]

OK read the first 5 chapters of AW Pink, he already talked me out of Calvinism.

I firmly believe faith comes from hearing.

(Rom 10:17 [NKJV])
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

He has it backwards. Calvinism is changing thousands of years of how the gospel was taught!

He is saying that first comes election, then predestination, then regeneration and then finally faith.

Also another thing I don't like about him is he handles every thing in absolute extremes. every thing is either black or white.

Not digging it so far..

There is of course some truth to what he says.

I'm not really comfortable with Calvin's slant on all this tho. Seems to go against the very grain and fiber of the gospel as we've known it since the 1st century.

I will finish the book of course, but honestly I am disappointed so far in his arguments.

I also don't believe people are not saved simply because God doesn't love them.

If this is Calvinism's best source for now, they are in trouble.

 

[DeaconDean]

Have you not read what the scriptures say in Jeremiah 18 and Romans 9?

Is the Sovereign Lord not entitled to make His creation any fashion He sees fit?

Is He not entitled as Sovereign Lord to call, elect, predestinate as He sees fit?

Remember what God said to Job out of the whirlwind?

"Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." -Job 38:3-4 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hammster]

I think you missed my point, Paul show in these scriptures Romans 12:1-2 what is the perfect will of God, but begs the brethren/ the elect to do the will of God, The Sovereign God Of the Calvinist will force someone to have faith in Him but won't force them to do the will of God, in that Paul has to beg them to do so?

so educate me, Are you saying that if you are one of the elect, it is up to you to keep yourself sanctified/saved , and if you don't do the will Of God, For Paul clearly begs the brethren/elect to do the will of God which shows that Paul knew that some would not do the will of God, so to those that are elect if they don't do the perfect will of God are they still elect or do they become one of the non-elect? what saith you hammster? are you saying that the elect can do something that would make the election of John Calvin's Sovereign God void? Or do you stand with the true calvinist and say if it is the will of God: It will be done. which would disagree with paul seeing that He is not telling the elect that they will do the will of God, but rather begging them to do the will of God , please inform us hammster which way do you see it?

Once again, election, predestination, and sanctification are three separate things. We are elected unto salvation. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Sanctification is the process that God uses to conform us. It's not instantaneous.