Free Will or Predestination

[Hammster]

Why would it be against the sovereignty of God for God to give man free will?

It wouldn't.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Let me answer by asking you a serious question:

Can a dead man thwart being resurrected?

No more than Lazarus could.

 

[Skala]

As an aside, it should be noted that Jesus didn't use the illustration of being born again because it sounded spiritual. His illustrations had a meaning He wanted to convey.

Excellent point. Same with Paul's usage of resurrection in Eph 2.

 

[Skala]

No more than Lazarus could.

Then you have your answer.

A dead man cannot thwart being resurrected, so a spiritually dead man cannot thwart being spiritually resurrected....aka, born again.

"You were dead, and God made you alive...by grace you have been saved" - Eph 2

 

[His_disciple3]

Then you have your answer.

A dead man cannot thwart being resurrected, so a spiritually dead man cannot thwart being spiritually resurrected....aka, born again.

"You were dead, and God made you alive...by grace you have been saved" - Eph 2

if a dead man can't respond why would God ask/invite us to be reconciled to Him?

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV
and If He asks can we say no. and if He asks and He elects? does He ask then elect or elect then ask? I say He asks then elects, I mean would it do Him any good to elect then ask, for us only to say no thanks I don't believe in You! I don't think so!

 

[DeaconDean]

A dead man cannot thwart being resurrected, so a spiritually dead man cannot thwart being spiritually resurrected....aka, born again.

Excellent point.

That is why regeneration (born-again) preceeds everything.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[omanid]

Nice, Skala; God is giving you good ideas.

 

[christian73]

I've seen many threads on this throughout the years I've been here (off and on), but I believe free will is biblical.

 

[christian73]

Excellent point.

That is why regeneration (born-again) preceeds everything.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hey, DD! You're right on target as usual.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Hey, DD! You're right on target as usual.

If you believe regeneration preceeds faith then you must also realize that it presents a problem with free will right?

 

[Hammster]

If you believe regeneration preceeds faith then you must also realize that it presents a problem with free will right?

That's what makes free will tricky. I believe that I freely chose to put my faith in Christ.

 

[nobdysfool]

If you believe regeneration preceeds faith then you must also realize that it presents a problem with free will right?

Only if you believe that free will is something you possess apart from God....how do you define free will?

 

[Robs07M6S]

That's what makes free will tricky. I believe that I freely chose to put my faith in Christ.

Did you freely chose to put your faith in Christ before you were regenerated?

 

[Robs07M6S]

Only if you believe that free will is something you possess apart from God....how do you define free will?

Well, I guess what im saying is that if regeneration preceeds faith then we do not have a free will. "BTW im not one who supports free will either, im a struggling low calvinist at this point".

 

[nobdysfool]

Well, I guess what im saying is that if regeneration preceeds faith then we do not have a free will. "BTW im not one who supports free will either, im a struggling low calvinist at this point".

I think part of the problem is that Predestination and free will are not opposites, mutually exclusive. Regeneration does precede faith, and it is because of regeneration that we are then able to believe savingly on Christ. God doesn't force one to believe, God frees them to believe. That's why Hammster can say he freely chose to believe on Christ.

Predestination means that God ordains that which He knows we will freely choose, and incorporates those choices into His Plan in such a way as to bring about that which He purposes. From our side, we choose to do what we do without compulsion, but from God's side, we could not have chosen otherwise. It's a matter of perspective. There is no lack of freedom on our side, and no lack of fulfilling His Will on God's side.

Free will is really a misnomer, as it makes no logical sense to say that a person in bondage and slavery to sin, whose nature is naturally to hate God, and reject the Gospel, can in any real sense be truly free. What is often offered as a definition of free will is the ability to reject God. I find it curious that what is claimed to be a precious gift of God is defined by defiance to Him. Does that even make logical sense?

 

[Hammster]

Did you freely chose to put your faith in Christ before you were regenerated?

Nope. Back then I chose to freely reject Him.

 

[iLogos]

If we don;t have free will, how come there are over 10,000 denominations? Wouldn't there only be believers and non-believers if there was no libertarian free will?

If there is no free will God becomes the author and creator of evil, otherwise where did it come from? And we have no responsibly for being sinners because without God to change us we are hopeless! How can we be held responsible for the way we are born if we can not chose to change?

Where did Lucifer get the idea to rebel against God since no one rebelled before him?

Why does God put people to the test, Adam and Eve in the garden, and allow Satan to wipe out Job's whole family just to see if Job will curse God?

Why are we constantly told to repent, and not to sin, or sin no more?

Indeed, the topic of free will is Calvinism's biggest flaw and one has to jump through many hoops and split many hairs thru the Bible to adopt it as Calvinism.

Certainly we are born in sin, wicked by nature and rebellious. Certainly there is predestination, election, called, chosen, but friends, any one who ever read the whole Bible can not deny there is also a wonderful thing called free will! That people can even go back and forth on this subject, changing their minds, a former Calvinist, a former Catholic, people switching religions, dropping away, coming back, is all evident that we have free will or a very confused God. God is not confused, man is confused on many things, also evident we have free will

 

[anada]

If we don;t have free will, how come there are over 10,000 denominations? Wouldn't there only be believers and non-believers if there was no libertarian free will?

If there is no free will God becomes the author and creator of evil, otherwise where did it come from? And we have no responsibly for being sinners because without God to change us we are hopeless! How can we be held responsible for the way we are born if we can not chose to change?

Where did Lucifer get the idea to rebel against God since no one rebelled before him?

Why does God put people to the test, Adam and Eve in the garden, and allow Satan to wipe out Job's whole family just to see if Job will curse God?

Why are we constantly told to repent, and not to sin, or sin no more?

Indeed, the topic of free will is Calvinism's biggest flaw and one has to jump through many hoops and split many hairs thru the Bible to adopt it as Calvinism.

Certainly we are born in sin, wicked by nature and rebellious. Certainly there is predestination, election, called, chosen, but friends, any one who ever read the whole Bible can not deny there is also a wonderful thing called free will! That people can even go back and forth on this subject, changing their minds, a former Calvinist, a former Catholic, people switching religions, dropping away, coming back, is all evident that we have free will or a very confused God. God is not confused, man is confused on many things, also evident we have free will

+1 great post!

 

[nobdysfool]

If we don;t have free will, how come there are over 10,000 denominations? Wouldn't there only be believers and non-believers if there was no libertarian free will?

If there is no free will God becomes the author and creator of evil, otherwise where did it come from? And we have no responsibly for being sinners because without God to change us we are hopeless! How can we be held responsible for the way we are born if we can not chose to change?

Where did Lucifer get the idea to rebel against God since no one rebelled before him?

Why does God put people to the test, Adam and Eve in the garden, and allow Satan to wipe out Job's whole family just to see if Job will curse God?

Why are we constantly told to repent, and not to sin, or sin no more?

Indeed, the topic of free will is Calvinism's biggest flaw and one has to jump through many hoops and split many hairs thru the Bible to adopt it as Calvinism.

Certainly we are born in sin, wicked by nature and rebellious. Certainly there is predestination, election, called, chosen, but friends, any one who ever read the whole Bible can not deny there is also a wonderful thing called free will! That people can even go back and forth on this subject, changing their minds, a former Calvinist, a former Catholic, people switching religions, dropping away, coming back, is all evident that we have free will or a very confused God. God is not confused, man is confused on many things, also evident we have free will

Don't you see that your argument for free will is primarily one of rebellion, and defiance? To prove free will, it is said that one must be able to reject Christ. Well, men are born naturally in that state. Men are born fallen, they don't fall at some point later. So rebellion is man's natural state. And that natural state is bondage to sin. In what way can one in bondage be said to be free? Yet the "proof" of free will is rebellion.

 

[christian73]

If you believe regeneration preceeds faith then you must also realize that it presents a problem with free will right?

not necessarily.