Free Will or Predestination

[His_disciple3]

I'm not even a Calvinist and I know how that would be answered,

remember Calvinism does not deny the soul or the heart.

(Prov 16:9 [NKJV])
A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

What Paul is really saying is not to grieve the Holy Spirit. Don't resist the Spirit if He is moving you in a certain direction which may not be immediately apparent to you.

It's not like we are puppets on a string.

If God wanted to He certainly could force the issue or His Will in this case on us, but would rather we see it and understand it.

What Paul is saying is to be open willing and ready to follow God's Will.

Are we all there? Hardly. So God often has to nudge us a little harder some times if need be. The point is if God wanted us to do some thing, we could not truly refuse. Paul is saying don't refuse.

that is my point Paul says it is the perfect will of God, the will of God is what He would will/want for His people/brethren, so if God wants/will us to be Holy, acceptable then He would makes us to be Holy and acceptable. but Paul knows that not all are going to do the will of God, so if Paul taught what John Calvin says he taught? why Is he begging the brethren to do the will of God, if he knew that God was going to force them to do it? I will go one step further here Why even tell them what the will of God is, in order so that they can do it, if God is going to force them to, but not only does he tell them but beseeches/begs them to!!

 

[Hammster]

that is my point Paul says it is the perfect will of God, the will of God is what He would will/want for His people/brethren, so if God wants/will us to be Holy, acceptable then He would makes us to be Holy and acceptable. but Paul knows that not all are going to do the will of God, so if Paul taught what John Calvin says he taught? why Is he begging the brethren to do the will of God, if he knew that God was going to force them to do it? I will go one step further here Why even tell them what the will of God is, in order so that they can do it, if God is going to force them to, but not only does he tell them but beseeches/begs them to!!

You win. You've succeeded. You are victorious. You have managed to disprove what you think Reformed Theology teaches. Congrats. Go in peace.

 

[iLogos]

Have you not read what the scriptures say in Jeremiah 18 and Romans 9?

Is the Sovereign Lord not entitled to make His creation any fashion He sees fit?

Is He not entitled as Sovereign Lord to call, elect, predestinate as He sees fit?

Remember what God said to Job out of the whirlwind?

"Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." -Job 38:3-4 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

This is the logic I see at work, using extreme examples.

Of course God is entitled to do whatever He wants. Can you allow Him to choose what He wants without pushing Calvinism on Him?

He could have saved all.
He could have saved none.
He could have also made it available to anyone!
Would you be made at God if chose that?

What I see in arguments for Calvinism is it has to be one or the other. You put God in a box! Why can't God have complete Sovereign and still be Merciful to any one who seeks the Lord?

I think it's way bigger then Calvin could see it. I'm sorry brother. I see Calvinists as followers of Calvin, not the Bible or specially the Gospel (Good News). I seen your arguments and honestly they do not impress me because it puts God in this neat little box that man has created to explain the UNEXPLAINABLE.

I will continue to read as much as I can on Calvinism so that I may be better prepared on how to respond to their points.

You neednt worry I won't be a Calvin basher or hater. I still have respect for any brother in Christ. I pray that one day your hearts are opened to the full magnificent Glory of our God and Savior! He is so much BIGGER then you picture Him

Peace

 

[His_disciple3]

You guys are reasoning in the wrong direction. You start with man and reason up to God. You must start with God and reason down to man. The whole argument about free- will is reasoning up from man to God. If you really want to know where to start first find out who God is and then you will have no problem with seeing where man is .

OK let's see who God Is :

Romans 2:11
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
KJV
Ephesians 6:9
9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
KJV
1 Peter 1:17
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
KJV


and I don't have enough time to post all the verses that says HE is a JUST and RIGHTEOUS GOD, so if one sinner is atoned for; then all must have that same Chance, let's see a calvinist start with God and work down to this!

 

[iLogos]

Another thing I find really disturbing about Pink and other Calvinists is they employ the same tactics cults use to indoctrinate. I studied a dozen or so cults, including the JW's. They all use the same technique. Scripture references backed by Extreme examples. One or the other. Limit the chooses! The rest is a math game because a certain percentage will buy it. Keep it simple! So even the simple minded can follow.

I'm not saying your all in a cult, I'm just saying as one who has studied and researched cults for a number of years, the teaching techniques are strikingly similar!

 

[His_disciple3]

Have you not read what the scriptures say in Jeremiah 18 and Romans 9?

Is the Sovereign Lord not entitled to make His creation any fashion He sees fit?

Is He not entitled as Sovereign Lord to call, elect, predestinate as He sees fit?

Remember what God said to Job out of the whirlwind?

"Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." -Job 38:3-4 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

deac I am going have to go with an agrument that calvin uses if He formed His creation as He sees fit, is that the world (the trees and such) or is that people? I mean you if you have to tell me that world or the "WHOLE" world don't mean whole worldso scriptures can line up with calvinism, then why should creation mean creation as you see it?

 

[DeaconDean]

Another thing I find really disturbing about Pink and other Calvinists is they employ the same tactics cults use to indoctrinate. I studied a dozen or so cults, including the JW's. They all use the same technique. Scripture references backed by Extreme examples. One or the other. Limit the chooses! The rest is a math game because a certain percentage will buy it. Keep it simple! So even the simple minded can follow.

I'm not saying your all in a cult, I'm just saying as one who has studied and researched cults for a number of years, the teaching techniques are strikingly similar!

Point #1:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

Link

Point #2:

When speaking about well-known, revered and highly regarded past or present leaders, theologians, saints (living or deceased) of other Nicene Christian denominations, please show a measure of respect. These public religious figures are respected by the members who belong to those denominations. Please avoid using inflammatory words or phrases in reference to these public religious figures.

Link

Calvin and Pink are well respected figures. So to imply "cult" in reference to them is derogatory by nature.

You are not a Baptist by your own admission, and yet, here you are debating in the Baptist area.

If you don't agree with Reformed theology, I'd rather you just said so and moved along.

Thank you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I see Calvinists as followers of Calvin, not the Bible or specially the Gospel (Good News).

Highly inflamatory.

To imply we are followers of John Calvin and not of Christ and the scriptures.

Highly inflamatory.

And I resent the implication.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I pray that one day your hearts are opened to the full magnificent Glory of our God and Savior!

Please see my above post on this also.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[iLogos]

Well then it's time to say goodbye. This isn't the first time you have twisted what I posted in to a different meaning.

I will engage in non-baptists threads where my input is welcome.

(Unsubscribing so don't bother to reply)

Peace

 

[DeaconDean]

Well then it's time to say goodbye. This isn't the first time you have twisted what I posted in to a different meaning.

I did not "twist" what you said, those were your own words.

Did you not very plainly say:

I see Calvinists as followers of Calvin, not the Bible or specially the Gospel (Good News).

?

As a Baptist, I am first and foremost a "Christian" (a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ; Christian - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary), Baptist second, and Reformed last.

And to say/imply that I follow Calvin instead of Christ is to say I'm not a Christian and violates:

Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.

http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0

Your own words, not mine.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hammster]

Another thing I find really disturbing about Pink and other Calvinists is they employ the same tactics cults use to indoctrinate. I studied a dozen or so cults, including the JW's. They all use the same technique. Scripture references backed by Extreme examples. One or the other. Limit the chooses! The rest is a math game because a certain percentage will buy it. Keep it simple! So even the simple minded can follow.

I'm not saying your all in a cult, I'm just saying as one who has studied and researched cults for a number of years, the teaching techniques are strikingly similar!

"You neednt worry I won't be a Calvin basher or hater. I still have respect for any brother in Christ."

Fail.

 

[Hammster]

His_disciple3 said:

OK let's see who God Is :

Romans 2:11
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
KJV

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law

Paul is saying that God doesn't respect one people group over another when it comes to judgement.

Ephesians 6:9
9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
KJV

5Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 6Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; 7With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: 8Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. 9And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Paul is telling bosses not to lord over their servants/employees because He doesn't think higher of them because of their position.

1 Peter 1:17
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
KJV

Any work we do will be judged on it's merit, not because of who we are.

and I don't have enough time to post all the verses that says HE is a JUST and RIGHTEOUS GOD, so if one sinner is atoned for; then all must have that same Chance, let's see a calvinist start with God and work down to this!

The verses you posted said (when taken in context) that God doesn't favor one people group over another. They don't say what you desperately want them to say.

 

[DeaconDean]

To the Baptist brethren and sisters,

I wish to extend a humblest apology to you all. It was not my desire to start any trouble.

In fact, I offered a palm leaf earlier in this thread to the member here:

Then please accept my humblest apologies.

Over the last few months, we have had a flood of "Non-Denominationals and Sabbatarians" who believe it is their duty to come here and tell us how wrong our beliefs are.

I just ask that you read the rules for this area and make yourself familiar with them.

Ask all the questions you want, just do not debate them. I do not go to your area and debate there, please extend to us, the same courtesy.

But it is also funny, that I seen very early on that there was animosity from a poster directed at Calvinists/Reformed Baptists:

I never said you were nothing other than polite, and/or courteous.

I just wanted to know if you were studied enough on Reformed Theology and/or the Doctrines of Grace to inform those of us who are Reformed Baptists of just how our view of "limited atonement/particular redemption" was incorrect.

You seem to be educated enough to tell another person to more or less "butt out" as you were "discussing a view with another poster".

So it would seem that you are well versed enough to inform Reformed baptists on limited atonement/particular redemption.

Anyway, I wish to apologize for running this member out, that was not my intention.

But I could not stand idly by and listen to another accusation that we (Calvinists/Refomed) follow John Calvin and not Christ, the scriptures, or the Holy Spirit.

Again, I apologize to any and all whom I may have offended.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

To the Baptist brethren and sisters,

I wish to extend a humblest apology to you all. It was not my desire to start any trouble.

In fact, I offered a palm leaf earlier in this thread to the member here:



But it is also funny, that I seen very early on that there was animosity from a poster directed at Calvinists/Reformed Baptists:



Anyway, I wish to apologize for running this member out, that was not my intention.

But I could not stand idly by and listen to another accusation that we (Calvinists/Refomed) follow John Calvin and not Christ, the scriptures, or the Holy Spirit.

Again, I apologize to any and all whom I may have offended.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Sometimes running a person out of town is a good thing. Especially if they are from Princeton University.

 

[Hupomone10]

Sometimes running a person out of town is a good thing. Especially if they are from Princeton University.

Why do you feel that way about fellow post-ers? I disagreed many times with Princeton Guy, but can honestly say I wouldn't want to run him off.

I do not understand such an attitude.

As far as iLogos goes, it was clear to me early on that he was contemplating Calvinism, maybe looking at both sides, but definitely looking at Calvinism. If he picked up the kind of attitude I'm seeing toward Princeton Guy, and seen toward myself from some, it is no surprise.

But then, he wasn't Baptist, either.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Why do you feel that way about fellow post-ers? I disagreed many times with Princeton Guy, but can honestly say I wouldn't want to run him off.

I do not understand such an attitude.

As far as iLogos goes, it was clear to me early on that he was contemplating Calvinism, maybe looking at both sides, but definitely looking at Calvinism. If he picked up the kind of attitude I'm seeing toward Princeton Guy, and seen toward myself from some, it is no surprise.

But then, he wasn't Baptist, either.

The particular one I recall (Ivy League fellow) wasn't a Baptist. He didn't even believe in the security of the believer or salvation by grace through faith alone. But he claimed to be Baptist and wouldn't stop arguing against fundamental Baptist doctrine.

So, yeah. I'm happy to see him go. It would have been different if he had changed his icon to Church of Christ or whatever he really was and be honest about it but he wouldn't so he constantly misrepresented our faith. He couldn't have belonged to a Baptist Church because with views like that they would kick him out. Unless the church just used the name Baptist. He didn't agree with anything we believed other than the mode of Baptism.