Free Will or Predestination

[reformed ttL]

Amen bro, but I know my own sinfulness enough to know that if God had not worked in my heart, I would have never responded to his call.

Let it be known of me that my personal belief is that, apart from effectual grace, I would end up in hell.

Now, if other Christians think of themselves better than that, then that's fine. But I know for a fact that without effectual grace/irresistible grace, I'd end up in hell.

you can count me in that belief as well, thanks skala

 

[Robs07M6S]

Amen bro, but I know my own sinfulness enough to know that if God had not worked in my heart, I would have never responded to his call.

Right, and I agree with that skala. But im not sure that I agree that you couldnt have made the choice to turn away and harden your heart. Maybe im wrong? I really dont know, this is another hard to understand topic.

 

[Skala]

Right, and I agree with that skala. But im not sure that I agree that you couldnt have made the choice to turn away and harden your heart. Maybe im wrong? I really dont know, this is another hard to understand topic.

Hence my personal absolute necessity for irresistible grace.

Without it, I'm 100% sure I'd end up in hell.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Hence my personal absolute necessity for irresistible grace.

Without it, I'm 100% sure I'd end up in hell.

So am I.

 

[anada]

I appreciate your attitude here brother. I too used to feel the same way. However I also came to believe that the issue is important enough to persue.

What really settled it in my mind was the doctrine of sin. If men are truly as wicked, evil, and rebellious as the Bible makes them out to be, if men are truly not seeking God and find the gospel foolishness, as the Bible says, then it makes sense that the only way men can be saved is if God comes down, intervenes, and saves them.

If he simply offered a choice, then sat back and did nothing, nobody would ever be saved. But instead, the Bible describes salvation as God pursuing us. He actively stepped in to save us. He elected us, predestined us, made sure we heard the gospel in our lives, brought us to Christ, brought us to faith and repentance, changed our hearts, took off our blindfolds, spiritually resurrected us.

To me, God's activity in salvation is what makes election and predestination true. If I believed he just sat back and did absolutely nothing to save anybody, I would have no hope that anyone would ever be saved.

So I truly believe if someone takes seriously the doctrine of sin, they will inevitably have to concede and say "Salvation is truly by free grace".

I don't believe that He sits back and does absolutely nothing to save anyone either mate. I wasn't suggesting that in the slightest. I have tried to understand Calvinism, but the fact of the matter is there are many verses which are at stark contrast to it, in my view. I understand that not everyone will be saved, but scripture presents the picture of a loving God to me, whose grace and mercy extends to all. How else could you reconcile passages such as:

• “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
• “The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! ” (John 1:29)
• “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” (John 6:51)
• “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”(John 12:32)
• “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.” (1 Timothy 2:5-6)
• “But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. ” (Hebrews 2:9)
• “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.” (2 Peter 2:1)
•“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
Etc etc etc. I think you get the point.

 

[Skala]

Anada, I hope you don't mind, I PMed you brother.

Take care!

 

[iLogos]

Hence my personal absolute necessity for irresistible grace.

Without it, I'm 100% sure I'd end up in hell.

Not sure on this ether because the scriptures speak of an apostasy, turning away, a sin that leads to death, and *believers* are warned about it.

I think it's possible otherwise why did God allow Satan to tempt Job? Would have been a waste of time if we have "irresistible grace". Why let Satan kill off Job's family to see if he would curse God?

Sorry, don't see enough scripture to support this view

 

[anada]

Anada, I hope you don't mind, I PMed you brother.

Take care!

Checking it out now. Cheers!

 

[Skala]

Not sure on this ether because the scriptures speak of an apostasy, turning away, a sin that leads to death, and *believers* are warned about it.

I think it's possible otherwise why did God allow Satan to tempt Job? Would have been a waste of time if we have "irresistible grace". Why let Satan kill off Job's family to see if he would curse God?

Sorry, don't see enough scripture to support this view

Not sure on this ether because the scriptures speak of an apostasy, turning away, a sin that leads to death, and *believers* are warned about it.

Indeed but John tells us that if anyone turns away, they were never true believers to begin with. They were simply tares among the wheat. Etc. That being said, that's a totally different topic than what "irresistible grace" aim to teach.

If you need scripture, check this article, it is full of scripture that supports the view brother:

Irresistible Grace - is it biblical?

 

[iLogos]

Indeed but John tells us that if anyone turns away, they were never true believers to begin with. They were simply tares among the wheat. Etc. That being said, that's a totally different topic than what "irresistible grace" aim to teach.

If you need scripture, check this article, it is full of scripture that supports the view brother:

Irresistible Grace - is it biblical?

From the article..

A common misconception about the doctrine of irresistible grace is that it implies men are forced to accept Christ and men are dragged kicking and screaming into heaven. Of course neither of these are accurate descriptions of the doctrine of irresistible grace as revealed in the Bible. In fact the heart of irresistible grace is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit whereby He takes a man dead in his trespasses and sins and gives him spiritual life so that he can recognize the unsurpassing value of God’s offer of salvation. Then having been set free from the bondage of sin, that man willingly comes to Christ.

Another misconception concerning this doctrine is that it teaches the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted at all. Yet again that is not what the doctrine teaches because that is not what the Bible teaches. God’s grace can be resisted and the Holy Spirit’s influence can be resisted even by one of the elect. However what the doctrine does correctly recognize is that the Holy Spirit can overcome all such resistance and that He will draw the elect with an irresistible grace that makes them want to come to God and helps them to understand the Gospel so they can and will believe it.

The doctrine of irresistible grace simply recognizes that the Bible teaches God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when He wills to.

It is it isn't..

Splitting hairs again

I recall many times before I was a believer I was in church during the end at the usual call to the altar, I often felt a struggle. Part of me wanted to go up, part of me resisted. I think one can and does resist, but I know when they stop resisting, you will then say it's because God made them stop. I'm afraid I'm beginning to see the predictable pattern in Calvinism I forgot about. It's coming back to me. A lot of splitting hairs is needed to make TULIP fit the bible

 

[Robs07M6S]

Indeed but John tells us that if anyone turns away, they were never true believers to begin with.

I agree here but it still begs the question as to rather irresistable grace is Biblical or not because in either case we see those "especially in the book of Hebrews" who are right on the edge of salvation and then turn and crucify Christ and trample him under their feet.

John Mcarther stated that those in Hebrews 6:4-6 are the ones that are standing on the edge of a cliff "so to say" and if they do not press on towards complete faith in Christ then they are bound to go over the side of the cliff that leads to apostasy.

 

[iLogos]

I agree here but it still begs the question as to rather irresistable grace is Biblical or not because in either case we see those "especially in the book of Hebrews" who are right on the edge of salvation and then turn and crucify Christ and trample him under their feet.

John Mcarther stated that those in Hebrews 6:4-6 are the ones that are standing on the edge of a cliff "so to say" and if they do not press on towards complete faith in Christ then they are bound to go over the side of the cliff that leads to apostasy.

If it was irresistible, why would there be a need to warn *believers* of falling away?

 

[Robs07M6S]

If it was irresistible, why would there be a need to warn *believers* of falling away?

I believe the warnings serve two purposes iLogos, for the true born again believer these warnings are a means that God uses to keep those who belong to him, for the word of God is clear that he who started a good work in you WILL carry it on to completion and in doing so God uses a means to carry out this promise and the means that he uses are found in his word, even with the warnings.

For the second group we are dealing with those who were never saved in the first place, they may have made a profession of faith but it was a false one at that. Growing up in the church I know first hand that this is a sobering and terrifying truth because I have seen it happen to individuals first hand, I believe further clarification of this is found in the parable of the soils.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

 

[Skala]

I agree here but it still begs the question as to rather irresistable grace is Biblical or not because in either case we see those "especially in the book of Hebrews" who are right on the edge of salvation and then turn and crucify Christ and trample him under their feet.

John Mcarther stated that those in Hebrews 6:4-6 are the ones that are standing on the edge of a cliff "so to say" and if they do not press on towards complete faith in Christ then they are bound to go over the side of the cliff that leads to apostasy.

In responding to the idea of resistible grace (that God cannot convert and effectively save with 100% success rate all by himself), the synod of dordt said:

[We disagree with those...]Who teach that God in regenerating man does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby he may powerfully and unfailingly bend man's will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for man's conversion, man nevertheless can, and in actual fact often does, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate him, that man completely thwarts his own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in his own power whether or not to be reborn.

For this does away with all effective functioning of God's grace in our conversion and subjects the activity of Almighty God to the will of man; it is contrary to the apostles, who teach that we believe by virtue of the effective working of God's mighty strength (Eph. 1:19), and that God fulfills the undeserved good will of his kindness and the work of faith in us with power (2 Thess. 1:11), and likewise that his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3).

And I think they make an excellent argument as well as use scriptures that prove their points. Let's look at those verses:

Eph 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might

We believe based on God's work in us. Not just his work, but his work of "great might".

2 Thess 1:11 to this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power

Again, the faith in us is the result of God's power working in us.

2 Pet 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,

Yet again, all things that we need for life and godliness are given to us from God. Surely that includes faith, as faith is needed for life and godliness!

With scriptures like this, I just don't understand the view that says God merely offers salvation, and says "please please please believe!!" when in fact He is the one that come in and stirs up faith in us and works faith in us by His own power and strength. And he does it by grace. We don't deserve it.

Yes, God offers salvation, but he doesn't stop there; he secures it by grace, because his goal is to save sinners to the glory of his grace.

 

[Robs07M6S]

In responding to the idea of resistible grace (that God cannot convert and effectively save with 100% success rate all by himself), the synod of dordt said:

Who teach that God in regenerating man does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby he may powerfully and unfailingly bend man's will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for man's conversion, man nevertheless can, and in actual fact often does, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate him, that man completely thwarts his own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in his own power whether or not to be reborn.

Im horribly confused now, so you agree with this that you posted? that man can thwart his own salvation?

 

[Skala]

Im horribly confused now, so you agree with this that you posted? that man can thwart his own salvation?

I think you misunderstand, and I thought I edited my post fast enough, but if you look, that first paragraph is what the synod disagreed with.

 

[Robs07M6S]

I think you misunderstand, and I thought I edited my post fast enough, but if you look, that first paragraph is what the synod disagreed with.

So you dont believe man can thwart his rebirth? that is your position as far as I know right?

 

[Skala]

So you dont believe man can thwart his rebirth? that is your position as far as I know right?

Let me answer by asking you a serious question:

Can a dead man thwart being resurrected?

 

[Hammster]

Let me answer by asking you a serious question:

Can a dead man thwart being resurrected?

As an aside, it should be noted that Jesus didn't use the illustration of being born again because it sounded spiritual. His illustrations had a meaning He wanted to convey.

 

[MrJG]

In responding to the idea of resistible grace (that God cannot convert and effectively save with 100% success rate all by himself), the synod of dordt said:

[We disagree with those...]Who teach that God in regenerating man does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby he may powerfully and unfailingly bend man's will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for man's conversion, man nevertheless can, and in actual fact often does, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate him, that man completely thwarts his own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in his own power whether or not to be reborn.

For this does away with all effective functioning of God's grace in our conversion and subjects the activity of Almighty God to the will of man; it is contrary to the apostles, who teach that we believe by virtue of the effective working of God's mighty strength (Eph. 1:19), and that God fulfills the undeserved good will of his kindness and the work of faith in us with power (2 Thess. 1:11), and likewise that his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3).

Why would it be against the sovereignty of God for God to give man free will?