Free Will or Predestination

[iLogos]

Thank you. Not here to rock the boat

 

[DeaconDean]

Thank you. Not here to rock the boat

No problem.

Like I said, please accept my humblest apologies.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[iLogos]

No problem.

Like I said, please accept my humblest apologies.

God Bless

Till all are one.

No need to apologize but accepted just the same. I am well aware one can never be sure about new people.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Come and see the crappy attitudes of those of the Arminian theology in the Soteriology room sometimes.

It must be nice to sit there and judge the Calvinists when in reality my experience here on the forums has been just what you said with Arminians.

I never said arminians were not guilty of some of the very same things as I have seen it from both sides and dont even get me started on judging one another because most here have done that on more than one occassion be it calvinist or arminians.

Either way I retract my statement and apologize to any who I offended, my response at the time was out of frustration because I was hoping to get a better understanding of the passage in Ephesians which I had made mention of.

 

[Robs07M6S]

Did God say when you see the blood I will pass over you or when I see the blood I will pass over you? Who must see the blood in order to be reconciled?

Obviously its when God see's the blood but do you think God would see the blood "for you" if you had not first believed?

 

[His_disciple3]

Matthew 18:11
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
KJV

if He came for the Lost did He die for the Lost, if He died for the Lost then why aren't all saved. maybe that is a question that only God can answer. all we can do is study to show ourselves approved, a workman rightly dividing the truth, but if He came for the Lost then, limited atonement is out the Door and calvinism is a false teaching, and I didn't say that He came for the Lost, John Calvin didn't say He came for the lost and Paul didn't say that He came for the lost, Red letter in my KJB, boys and Girls: Jesus Said that He came for the Lost, does Lost mean All, all sinners: for all have come short of the Glory of God ? Oh yeah!!!

 

[DeaconDean]

Obviously its when God see's the blood but do you think God would see the blood "for you" if you had not first believed?

From your statement, its obviously what you have done for God, believed first. rather than what God has done for you.

What faith does a man have that will save him?

Nobody here has said that man does not have faith of some kind.

However, true, genuine saving faith, is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I supply two passages of scripture.

"And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." -Mk. 9:24 (KJV)

Here was a man that admitted he believed, in something, but that belief was ultimately unbelief.

And just two chapters later, Jesus says:

"Have faith in God." -Mk. 11:22 (KJV)

A good rendering, but the correct one.

In the Greek, Jesus actually tells the disciples to "have the faith of God", or, the same kind of faith that God has.

The Greek word used for faith here, should have been rendered "the faith" and the Greek word used for God is correct, "of God".

The passage should read "Have the faith of God".

Do you have "the faith of God"?

Are men born with "the faith of God"?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Jesus also said:

"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -Mt. 15:24 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[iLogos]

I hate to sound like a stinker for details, but when dealing with the Word of God we should be careful to stay in context and remember to look at the whole picture. We can't very well take one verse out of context and disregard all the others. If there seems to be a contradiction I find it's usually for this reason. Lets look at that verse in context..

Jesus was speaking in parables and the verse you quoted was regarding children. Put back in context it flows perfectly.


(Mat 18:10) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 18:11) For the Son of man is come to save that (not everyone or all that are) which was lost.

(Mat 18:12) How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

(Mat 18:13) And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

(Mat 18:14) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

You certainly understand the previous verse isn't taken literally

(Mat 18:9) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

There are just way too many verses to support Jesus only died for those who are saved to suddenly abandon that teaching from a verse taken from the middle of a parable and applied incorrectly. *that* does not mean *all* otherwise Jesus would need to save all that are lost and then it would be universal salvation. Of course he has come for the lost, but will he save all the lost?

Some times I really do feel we attempt to split hairs and I get that feeling from both sides too. I don't think Calvin or Armenian. I just read the scriptures as they are

 

[Robs07M6S]

From your statement, its obviously what you have done for God, believed first. rather than what God has done for you.

Uh, no that is not what I said. Please do not put words in my mouth. I presented the passage of Ephesians which shows after we hear the Gospel and believe we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Obviously apart from hearing the Gospel faith would be impossible and hearing the Gospel tells me exactly what God has done for me, not the other way around. You make it sound as though I chose to believe apart from hearing the word of God which is completely obsured to begin with.

However, true, genuine saving faith, is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Absolutely.

 

[iLogos]

Can we all agree GOD IS GREAT!?

 

[His_disciple3]

I hate to sound like a stinker for details, but when dealing with the Word of God we should be careful to stay in context and remember to look at the whole picture. We can't very well take one verse out of context and disregard all the others. If there seems to be a contradiction I find it's usually for this reason. Lets look at that verse in context..

Jesus was speaking in parables and the verse you quoted was regarding children. Put back in context it flows perfectly.


(Mat 18:10) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 18:11) For the Son of man is come to save that (not everyone or all that are) which was lost.

(Mat 18:12) How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

(Mat 18:13) And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

(Mat 18:14) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

You certainly understand the previous verse isn't taken literally

(Mat 18:9) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

There are just way too many verses to support Jesus only died for those who are saved to suddenly abandon that teaching from a verse taken from the middle of a parable and applied incorrectly. *that* does not mean *all* otherwise Jesus would need to save all that are lost and then it would be universal salvation. Of course he has come for the lost, but will he save all the lost?

Some times I really do feel we attempt to split hairs and I get that feeling from both sides too. I don't think Calvin or Armenian. I just read the scriptures as they are

you have to take the 2 or 3 verses mentioning predestination out of contents, then you have to take all( and I do mean ALL) verses dealing with salvation out of content to get that He only died for a chosen few, so you are saying that when Jesus said that He came To save the lost, that He was only talking about some children that was present when He said it, and because you can't take the verse about it is better to pluck your eye out instead of letting your lust send you to hell, you can't take this litetally then we can't take the rest of all the verses literally? So why did all the people die so we can open the word of God? and why study the word if we can't take it literally.

so we have; that He came to save the lost and that He was not only the atonement for us but for the sins of the whole world, and you still hang on to man's teachings of limited atonement, which sounds the worse about our Lord and Saviour

A). that He was not able of saving the whole world so He only died for those that would let Him love them?
B). He only loved a few and those are the only ones that He died for

But I will drive this point once again, He came for the lost that includes calvinist and Armenians for both were in the number of the Lost that He came to save, this also includes all sinners, for the wages of sin Is Death But the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, for all have sinned and all have come short of the Glory of God, ALL YEAH "ALL"

 

[iLogos]

Can we all agree GOD IS GREAT!?

Come on brothers and sisters, surely we can agree that GOD IS GREAT!

 

[His_disciple3]

Come on brothers and sisters, surely we can agree that GOD IS GREAT!

Yes I agree He is a Great God, Praise the Lord

 

[anada]

A while ago I tried to wrap my head around this whole issue, I must admit I came out of it very confused and dissilusioned. I prayed to God for wisdom on the subject after much reading and research and went to bed, still troubled. In the morning the first thought to come to my head on awakening was right where I left off, however now I felt peaceful and content. Suddenly I realised that God had indeed given me the wisdom I sought- He showed me it was ok to not understand everything and made me at peace with that. All glory to God!

It certainly is a divisive issue amongst Christians that's for sure. So my two cents is this: Perhaps God predestines some who He has a special job for, or who are to play a certain role for Him or His plan. For the rest, He still loves them and calls to them but it's up to them to accept Him or turn away. I was talking to a fellow on here a little while back about this and he said something which stuck with me. It was along the lines of "The ultimate reason for our being is to know God and if some are not "elected" per se, and cannot ever have this chance, then their existence is pointless, and I don't think God creates pointless people." I'm certainly no expert on the matter, but there's simply far too many verses which speak of "God's great love for everyone" or how "Jesus died for the sins of the world" for me to get on board with Calvinism, and believe that despite these verses God only accepts a few and abandons the rest.

I could well be wrong, I really haven't devoted myself to this particular topic as it seems others have, this is just a view I think could be right without going against scripture. Ultimately I don't think it's that big a deal whatever the real answer may be, if any of us even know it or are capable of knowing it. I just trust in God, because whatever his plan is- its totally perfect

I only read about half of this thread so apologies if this has been said previously.

 

[iLogos]

That's what I love About God!

He never burdens us with unneeded baggage we can't carry!

Just trust in the Lord!

 

[anada]

Amen brother

 

[Skala]

A while ago I tried to wrap my head around this whole issue, I must admit I came out of it very confused and dissilusioned. I prayed to God for wisdom on the subject after much reading and research and went to bed, still troubled. In the morning the first thought to come to my head on awakening was right where I left off, however now I felt peaceful and content. Suddenly I realised that God had indeed given me the wisdom I sought- He showed me it was ok to not understand everything and made me at peace with that. All glory to God!

It certainly is a divisive issue amongst Christians that's for sure. So my two cents is this: Perhaps God predestines some who He has a special job for, or who are to play a certain role for Him or His plan. For the rest, He still loves them and calls to them but it's up to them to accept Him or turn away. I was talking to a fellow on here a little while back about this and he said something which stuck with me. It was along the lines of "The ultimate reason for our being is to know God and if some are not "elected" per se, and cannot ever have this chance, then their existence is pointless, and I don't think God creates pointless people." I'm certainly no expert on the matter, but there's simply far too many verses which speak of "God's great love for everyone" or how "Jesus died for the sins of the world" for me to get on board with Calvinism, and believe that despite these verses God only accepts a few and abandons the rest.

I could well be wrong, I really haven't devoted myself to this particular topic as it seems others have, this is just a view I think could be right without going against scripture. Ultimately I don't think it's that big a deal whatever the real answer may be, if any of us even know it or are capable of knowing it. I just trust in God, because whatever his plan is- its totally perfect

I only read about half of this thread so apologies if this has been said previously.

I appreciate your attitude here brother. I too used to feel the same way. However I also came to believe that the issue is important enough to persue.

What really settled it in my mind was the doctrine of sin. If men are truly as wicked, evil, and rebellious as the Bible makes them out to be, if men are truly not seeking God and find the gospel foolishness, as the Bible says, then it makes sense that the only way men can be saved is if God comes down, intervenes, and saves them.

If he simply offered a choice, then sat back and did nothing, nobody would ever be saved. But instead, the Bible describes salvation as God pursuing us. He actively stepped in to save us. He elected us, predestined us, made sure we heard the gospel in our lives, brought us to Christ, brought us to faith and repentance, changed our hearts, took off our blindfolds, spiritually resurrected us.

To me, God's activity in salvation is what makes election and predestination true. If I believed he just sat back and did absolutely nothing to save anybody, I would have no hope that anyone would ever be saved.

So I truly believe if someone takes seriously the doctrine of sin, they will inevitably have to concede and say "Salvation is truly by free grace".

 

[Robs07M6S]

If he simply offered a choice, then sat back and did nothing, nobody would ever be saved.

Now wait a minute, at the same time it could be said that if man was never offered a choice then he could never be saved either. If your dangeling off the edge of a cliff and I reach out my hand for you to lay hold of its going to be your fault if you do not respond in faith to the rescuer.

God calls us by his Spirit but it is YOUR responsibility to respond to this call.

Heb 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

 

[Skala]

Now wait a minute, at the same time it could be said that if man was never offered a choice then he could never be saved either. If your dangeling off the edge of a cliff and I reach out my hand for you to lay hold of its going to be your fault if you do not respond in faith to the rescuer.

God calls us by his Spirit but it is YOUR responsibility to respond to this call.

Heb 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Amen bro, but I know my own sinfulness enough to know that if God had not worked in my heart, I would have never responded to his call.

Let it be known of me that my personal belief is that, apart from effectual grace, I would end up in hell.

Now, if other Christians think of themselves better than that, then that's fine. But I know for a fact that without effectual grace/irresistible grace, I'd end up in hell.