Free Will or Predestination

[Osage Bluestem]

Or could it be limited atonement because not everyone believes? Was Christ atonement applied to any of you before you believed? that is the question that im asking.

I don't think so.

 

[Robs07M6S]

I don't think so.

You dont think so what? what part did you not agree with?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

You dont think so what? what part did you not agree with?

I think the atonement is applied when a person believes.

 

[Robs07M6S]

I think the atonement is applied when a person believes.

So whats wrong then with saying that Christ died for everyone if the condition is that you have to believe in order for it to apply personally in ones life?

 

[iLogos]

So whats wrong then with saying that Christ died for everyone if the condition is that you have to believe in order for it to apply personally in ones life?

I believe this was already tackled in this thread or another similar thread.

That is the correct way to read John 3:16

whosoever *believes*

which also makes it limited atonement.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

So whats wrong then with saying that Christ died for everyone if the condition is that you have to believe in order for it to apply personally in ones life?

One doesn't believe until he is regenerated. He is only regenerated because he was predestined to be regenerated.

Christ didn't die for everyone or there would be no one in hell. He never fails at anything. He never makes plans he can't finish. He didn't die in vain for anyone.

 

[Robs07M6S]

I believe this was already tackled in this thread or another similar thread.

That is the correct way to read John 3:16

whosoever *believes*

which also makes it limited atonement.

So what is your position on this? did Jesus die for everyone or not?

 

[Robs07M6S]

One doesn't believe until he is regenerated.

I dont know that I believe the Bible teaches regeneration before belief, in fact everything I have seen from it teaches the contrary.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

Christ didn't die for everyone or there would be no one in hell.

Again that is the calvinistic view and im not sure I agree with it. Christ died for everyone but man is still responsible for placing his faith in Christ after hearing the gospel, again as you said earlier it didnt apply to you until you believed so just because one perishes in Hell doesnt mean that Christ didnt die for him.

He never fails at anything. He never makes plans he can't finish. He didn't die in vain for anyone.

I agree.

 

[iLogos]

So what is your position on this? did Jesus die for everyone or not?

I had a going over this with Skala,

the most strongest point he made was actually from Jesus own words when he prayed to the Father.

(Joh 17:9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

I take it to mean he died for those who believed. After all God knew who would believe and who would not.

 

[Robs07M6S]

I take it to mean he died for those who believed. After all God knew who would believe and who would not.

Thats the way that I see it as well but I can promise you this isnt the calvinistic view at all.

 

[iLogos]

I believe the regeneration and sanctification comes after believing too. I also think it's a ongoing process similar to theosis. Walking in the Spirit.

 

[iLogos]

Thats the way that I see it as well but I can promise you this isnt the calvinistic view at all.

I don't worry too much what people think or say, I find I line up perfectly with some Calvin views, and well, not so perfect in other Calvin views

 

[Robs07M6S]

I believe the regeneration and sanctification comes after believing too. I also think it's a ongoing process similar to theosis. Walking in the Spirit.

Okay, your definently not a calvinist but I think you already made that clear to others here before.

 

[Robs07M6S]

I don't worry too much what people think or say, I find I line up perfectly with some Calvin views, and well, not so perfect in other views

Thanks and thats the attitude I would like to have about it.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I dont know that I believe the Bible teaches regeneration before belief, in fact everything I have seen from it teaches the contrary.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.





Again that is the calvinistic view and im not sure I agree with it. Christ died for everyone but man is still responsible for placing his faith in Christ after hearing the gospel, again as you said earlier it didnt apply to you until you believed so just because one perishes in Hell doesnt mean that Christ didnt die for him.



I agree.

So be an armenian.

 

[Robs07M6S]

So be an armenian.

Nice response, you backed up your position quiet well with that one. I would rather be an armenian than a calvinist seeing the majority of the ones I have come across have such crappy attitudes.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Nice response, you backed up your position quiet well. I would rather be an armenian than a calvinist seeing the majority of the ones I have come across have crappy attitudes.

k

 

[Robs07M6S]

k

kthanxbabe.

 

[Hammster]

it was Paul that said that He died for US ( the elect ) that some might/would be redeemed, paul who john calvin says taught calvinism said that Christ died for the elect that some not a"ALL" the elect would be redeemed. You can't assume paul is talking about the elect "US" and then in mid sentence jump to mean some ( of the World) or either paul was saying that Christ died for us ( the World ) that some ( the elect ) would be redeemed, which if Paul is saying the latter, then your limited atonement just took a dive. If He is saying that Us ( the elect ) then Some of the elect will be redeemed and some won't. either way your limited attonement took a dive!!!

I'm not sure how that even was a response to what I said. Sorry.

 

[DeaconDean]

I would rather be an armenian than a calvinist seeing the majority of the ones I have come across have such crappy attitudes.

Come and see the crappy attitudes of those of the Arminian theology in the Soteriology room sometimes.

It must be nice to sit there and judge the Calvinists when in reality my experience here on the forums has been just what you said with Arminians.

God Bless

Till all are one.