Focused discussion--Are the Sabbaths of Col 2 weekly or yearly?

[RND]

Exactly. This is the law that is referenced in verses 1-6.

BFA

So do you need a law written on stone tablets to tell you that worshiping other gods is wrong? Do you need a law written on stone tablets to tell you that adultery is wrong? Did Joseph?

"For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will."

 

[Byfaithalone1]

So do you need a law written on stone tablets to tell you that worshiping other gods is wrong?

No. I have died to the law written on stone tablets so that I may be joined with another.

Do you need a law written on stone tablets to tell you that adultery is wrong?

No. I have died to the law written on stone tablets so that I may be joined with another.

Did Joseph?

Joseph did not have stone tablets.

BFA

 

[RND]

No. I have died to the law written on stone tablets so that I may be joined with another.

No. I have died to the law written on stone tablets so that I may be joined with another.

So since you've become a Christian you've never broken the Ten Commandments....not once?

Joseph did not have stone tablets.

That was my point. I didn't have to read the Ten Commandments to know adultery was wrong, or that stealing was wrong. Neither did Joseph. So obviously Joseph too had the TC written on his heart.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said -
The OT age after the fall of man - all worship was based in animal sacrifice. But that is not tru in Gen 2:3 when God BLESSED the Seventh day and MADE it holy.

BFA
This is an unsubstantiated claim. We have no Biblical basis

Until we read Gen 4 and find that Adam and Eve were not sacrificing animals in Eden.

Until we read Ex 20:11 "for in SIX DAYS the Lord MADE... and RESTED the seventh day THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day AND made it holy" speaking to the same "made it holy" term we find for that very same day in Gen 2:3 which is the very same event identified in the Sabbath Commandment "written in stone".

No mention of Animal sacrifices of that Holy Day in Gen 2:3 AND no mention of them for that Holy Day in Ex 20:8-11!

It would seem that you believe that the Bible teaches that there were two very different seventh-day sabbaths, one that included animal sacrifices and one that did not.

No - the same day - but WORSHIP to God CHANGED in Gen 4 -- animal sacrifices that we see there - were added.

Obviously.

Bob said

God affirms in Ex 20:11 that Gen 2:3 fact alone is what makes the Sabbath holy
​

BFA
Interestingly, the word "alone"

Agreed it comes from reading the text of Gen 20:8-11 and noticing all the inconvenient details -- one of which is that the ONLY source for the Seventh-day as a Holy day in Gen 20:11 is the Gen 2:3 Holy Day!

We know from Deuteronomy 5 that the sabbath was not given to man solely as a reminder of creation

Deut 5 -- Moses is not chisling new stone. The 4th commandment remained "unchanged" even as Moses notes in Deut 5.

As you note above - Moses in Deut 5 is ADDING an additional argument for remembering to Honor Christ the Creator's Holy day in Deut 5 that was specific to the Hebrews. They above all others were to be careful to honor Christ our Creator's Holy day -- given all that He had specially done for them since then.

Again -- I am sure this point is obvious to all.

Bob said

Thus eliminating the idea that when MADE it was created with liturgy involving animal sacrifice
​

BFA
Actually that idea remains very much on the table.

Really? Animal sacrifices in Gen 2?

Is that the imaginary part of Gen 2?

Throughout the God-given instructions regarding sabbath observance, we find commands relating to animal sacrifices that are to be made on the seventh day. You seem to claim that there were two different sabbaths,

It may come as a surprise to some - but merely observing the obvious fact that Gen 4 shows animal sacrifices involved in worship to God - does not "change the cycle of the week".

Bob said

In Ex 20 there is NO animal sacrifice specified for Sabbath. -- as written IN STONE.
​

BFA
We find this God-given requirement clearly articulated in Numbers 28, 1 Chronicle 23:31, 2 Chronicles 2:4, 2 Chronicles 31:3, Ezekiel 45:17 and Ezekiel 46.

None of which were included "in stone" of the Ten Commanments as God wrote them in Ex 20.

The point remains.

in Gen 2:3 NO animal sacrifice for God's Holy Day.

BFA
In Genesis 2:3, there is no mention of a sabbath command at all.

Until we read Ex 20:11 and notice that it is in Gen 2:3 that God's 7th-day Sabbath was made Holy.

Oh no wait! We saw that Holy Day in Gen 2:3 as well! How instructive.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Byfaithalone1]

That was my point. I didn't have to read the Ten Commandments to know adultery was wrong, or that stealing was wrong. Neither did Joseph. So obviously Joseph too had the TC written on his heart.

You might want to sit down, for this may come as a shock to you. We are making the same point (or at least it appears that we are). Sin existed before the law was added and since the Seed came. It exists because of the ministry of the Spirit.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Until we read Gen 4 and find that Adam and Eve were not sacrificing animals in Eden.

Then why should we conclude that they were keeping a sabbath in Eden, for sabbath observance includes animal sacrifices?

Until we read Ex 20:11 "for in SIX DAYS the Lord MADE... and RESTED the seventh day THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day AND made it holy"

Notice that the word THEREFORE is also found in Deuteronomy 5:

"Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day."
​

The sabbath was given to man as a reminder of at least two different events. It could not have been given to man until those two events had already ocurred.

No mention of Animal sacrifices of that Holy Day in Gen 2:3 AND no mention of them for that Holy Day in Ex 20:8-11!

But plenty of mentions of those animal sacrifices throughout the Old Testament (which was equally inspired by God).

No - the same day - but WORSHIP to God CHANGED in Gen 4 -- animal sacrifices that we see there - were added.

And yet we can find no command from God changing the manner of sabbath observance from one form to another. In fact, we find no command from God to man regarding sabbath observance prior to Exodus 16.

Agreed it comes from reading the text of Gen 20:8-11 and noticing all the inconvenient details

So it comes from reading into the text that which isn't really there? You claimed that Genesis 2:3 includes the word alone, and that word isn't actually there.

Deut 5 -- Moses is not chisling new stone.

Moses is communicating truth. God delivered the Israelites from slavery. Therefore, He commanded the Israelites to set aside a sabbath.

The 4th commandment remained "unchanged" even as Moses notes in Deut 5.

And yet you believe the sabbath had already been changed from a convocation that did not include animal sacrifices to a convocation that did include animal sacrifices. It seems that you do not believe that the sabbath was unchanging.

As you note above - Moses in Deut 5 is ADDING an additional argument for remembering to Honor Christ the Creator's Holy day in Deut 5 that was specific to the Hebrews.

Moses was adding? Perhaps you might re-read Deuteronomy 5. According to Verse 5, these are the words of God, not the words of Moses. Do you believe that God was correct in asserting that--because He delivered the Israelites from slavery--therefore, He commanded that they set aside the seventh day? Can God be trusted?

Really? Animal sacrifices in Gen 2?

Really? A sabbath observance that did not include animal sacrifices and that predated one of the reasons it was established? Really?

Is that the imaginary part of Gen 2?

Yes, it's included in the imaginery part of Genesis 2 in which God commands Adam and Eve to set aside a sabbath that does not include animal sacrifices, that will later include animal sacrifices and that will serve as a reminder of an event that hasn't even occurred yet. That's the imaginery part of Genesis 2 that we're discussing.

None of which were included "in stone" of the Ten Commanments as God wrote them in Ex 20.

Is it your claim that God did not command Israelites to offer special animal sacrifices on the seventh day, and that this was never a part of God-ordained sabbath observance?

BFA

 

[RND]

You might want to sit down, for this may come as a shock to you. We are making the same point (or at least it appears that we are). Sin existed before the law was added and since the Seed came. It exists because of the ministry of the Spirit.

BFA

So then you agree Adam, Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Joseph, et al, observed the sabbath? The "law" (Mosaic) came "because" of sin, not in spite of sin. This would have obviously included the sabbath.

Here's a question: Who said the following?

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since, the fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the law on the tablets of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"

Hint: It wasn't EGW and it wasn't an Adventist.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

So then you agree Adam, Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Joseph, et al, observed the sabbath?

That was quite a leap. How did we get from Point A to Point B?

You seem to suggest that, if I believe that sin existed before the law was added, then everything that is contained in the law must have also existed since the beginning of time. Let's see if that is in fact true.

(1) Did Adam observe the passover?
(2) Was Adam circumcised?
(3) Did Adam observe the feast of unleavened bread?
(4) Did Adam wear tzitzit?
(5) Did Adam observe the day of atonement?
(6) Is there any Biblical confirmation that Adam did these things?
​

The "law" (Mosaic) came "because" of sin, not in spite of sin.

Indeed.

This would have obviously included the sabbath.

Indeed. The question is not whether the sabbath was added, but when the sabbath was added. According to Galatians 3, the law was added 430 years after Abraham. According to Exodus 31, the sabbath was given to Israelites. According to Deuteronomy 5, it was given to Israelites (at least in part) because God freed them from slavery.

BFA

 

[RND]

That was quite a leap. How did we get from Point A to Point B?

You seem to suggest that, if I believe that sin existed before the law was added, then everything that is contained in the law must have also existed since the beginning of time. Let's see if that is in fact true.

(1) Did Adam observe the passover?​

It's possible. One of his boys "sacrificed" lambs.

(2) Was Adam circumcised?

Don't know. Might have been. Since a man that is circumcised doesn't pass that trait along to his children via DNA anything is possible with God.

(3) Did Adam observe the feast of unleavened bread?

Instituted at the Exodus for a remembrance of the Exodus.

(4) Did Adam wear tzitzit?

Did he need too?

(5) Did Adam observe the day of atonement?

Doesn't say he did or didn't so we could easily say he may have.

(6) Is there any Biblical confirmation that Adam did these things?

Is there any that says he didn't
​

Indeed. The question is not whether the sabbath was added, but when the sabbath was added.

Well obviously it was observed in Exodus 16 before the words of the covenant where given.

According to Galatians 3, the law was added 430 years after Abraham.

Right, the "Mosaic" law. You remember you did say "indeed" right?

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Covenant confirmed before of God in Christ. The "law" came after the "covenant."

NLT says: "This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise."

According to Exodus 31, the sabbath was given to Israelites.

Consisting of a "mixed multitude." Exodus 12.

According to Deuteronomy 5, it was given to Israelites (at least in part) because God freed them from slavery.

Still hung-up on the fact that it was given (originally) also as a sign of the creative powers of God? Why kick against the pricks BFA1? Maybe God just changed His mind!

 

[RND]

Care to take a stab at who uttered the quote I referenced?

Who said the following?

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since, the fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the law on the tablets of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"

 

[Byfaithalone1]

It's possible.

Is it really? Did the passover take place during or after Adam's life?

Don't know. Might have been.

Really? Circumcision was given to Abraham. Was Abraham alive during or after Adam's life?

Instituted at the Exodus for a remembrance of the Exodus.

So, the answer is NO, correct? Why then would you conclude that--if I believe that sin existed before the law--I must also believe that every aspect of the law had been observed by all men since creation?

Did he need too?

Nope. Because not every aspect of the law had been in place since creation.

Doesn't say he did or didn't so we could easily say he may have.

Yes, that does seem to be your philosophy. However, without evidence that he did, I asser that we should make no definitive claims that he did. In the same way, we should make no claim that he observed a sabbath as there is no Biblical evidence to support such a claim.

Is there any that says he didn't

Should we build a system of belief on an argument from silence?

Well obviously it was observed in Exodus 16 before the words of the covenant where given.

Indeed, as were any number of other practices that did not begin at creation (such as the passover and circumcision)

Covenant confirmed before of God in Christ. The "law" came after the "covenant."

Indeed. And Galatians 3:16 (the preceding verse) tells us which covenant Paul is describing. He is describing the covenant made with Abraham.

NLT says: "This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise."

Yup. The law was added 430 years after Abraham. Thanks for confirming that point.

According to Exodus 31, the sabbath was given to Israelites.
Consisting of a "mixed multitude." Exodus 12.

Actually, Exodus 31 says nothing about a mixed multitude. Is this an example of proof texting?

If the sabbath was given--in part--as a reminder of the exodus from Egypt, would this have meaning to a person who had not experienced the exodus from Egypt?

Still hung-up on the fact that it was given (originally) also as a sign of the creative powers of God? Why kick against the pricks BFA1? Maybe God just changed His mind!

Changed His mind about what? According to Deteronomy 5, God delivered the children of Israel from Egypt and THEREFORE (i.e. because of the exodus) they were to keep the sabbath. You and I have already agreed that God intended a dual purpose for the sabbath. Why did He need to change His mind?

BFA

 

[RND]

Is it really? Did the passover take place during or after Adam's life?

In my mind? During. The fact that God had to sacrifice animals to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness seems to suggest the same thing that the passover was to do.

Really? Circumcision was given to Abraham. Was Abraham alive during or after Adam's life?

Circumcision was a sign unto Abraham. That's not to say that it never existed before Abraham.

So, the answer is NO, correct? Why then would you conclude that--if I believe that sin existed before the law--I must also believe that every aspect of the law had been observed by all men since creation?

The "feast of unleavened bread" is part of the Mosaic law, not part of the Ten Commandments like the sabbath was.

I've looked and looked and I see nothing "that on the 15th day of Nisan and for the seven subsequent days" was written on stone, just on paper.

Nope. Because not every aspect of the law had been in place since creation.

Why did God require some folks to wear a little blue ribbon and others didn't? Maybe He knew some people would "forget" when they should "remember."

Yes, that does seem to be your philosophy. However, without evidence that he did, I asser that we should make no definitive claims that he did. In the same way, we should make no claim that he observed a sabbath as there is no Biblical evidence to support such a claim.

I would certainly disagree.

Should we build a system of belief on an argument from silence?

Well, I'm of a mind that up until Adam and Eve sinned God spoke to them in the Garden about lots of things, so I don't see God as being "silent" in the Garden. Now obviously we can't know for sure what God spoke to Adam and Eve about but in light of that fact that most of God's commandments were broken before the flood one could take a relatively educated stab.

Indeed, as were any number of other practices that did not begin at creation (such as the passover and circumcision)

But that's just it. There is no proof one way or another that passover, circumcision or sabbath weren't observed before they were mentioned in the Bible.

Indeed. And Galatians 3:16 (the preceding verse) tells us which covenant Paul is describing. He is describing the covenant made with Abraham.

Right. And what is a "covenant?" It is an enforceable agreement. AKA as law. See Romans 4.

Yup. The law was added 430 years after Abraham. Thanks for confirming that point.

Are you saying there was "no law" prior to the Mosaic law? Galatians 3 doesn't make that point. The "Mosaic law" was added because of "transgression." What is "transgression?"

That means people were "transgressing" something before the "Mosaic law" was added. What was being "transgressed?"

Actually, Exodus 31 says nothing about a mixed multitude. Is this an example of proof texting?

Exodus 12 does or did you miss that? Or maybe you missed who was and how thery were considered an "Israelite?"

If the sabbath was given--in part--as a reminder of the exodus from Egypt, would this have meaning to a person who had not experienced the exodus from Egypt?

Sure, why wouldn't it? What was the major problem for the nation of Israel?

Changed His mind about what? According to Deteronomy 5, God delivered the children of Israel from Egypt and THEREFORE (i.e. because of the exodus) they were to keep the sabbath. You and I have already agreed that God intended a dual purpose for the sabbath. Why did He need to change His mind?

I was being "sarcastic." Sorry you missed that.

Still don't want to take a stab at answering my "who said this" question?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In my mind? During. The fact that God had to sacrifice animals to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness seems to suggest the same thing that the passover was to do.

The observance of the passover included much more than animal sacrifice. It relates to the tenth plague in Egypt and to the Israelite's exodus from Egypt (i.e. think bitter herbs and unleavened bread). None of this would have been relevant during Adam's lifetime.

Circumcision was a sign unto Abraham. That's not to say that it never existed before Abraham.

Do you believe that it did? If so, where is the Biblical basis?

The "feast of unleavened bread" is part of the Mosaic law, not part of the Ten Commandments like the sabbath was.

Please review Exodus 34 and Leviticus 23.

I would certainly disagree.

Then you will certainly be willing to cite the text where God commanded Adam to set aside the seventh day.

Well, I'm of a mind that up until Adam and Eve sinned God spoke to them in the Garden about lots of things, so I don't see God as being "silent" in the Garden.

You missed the point. It is the Bible that is silent, not God. You are building a system of theology on an argument from silence. The Bible does not confirm your claims.

But that's just it. There is no proof one way or another that passover, circumcision or sabbath weren't observed before they were mentioned in the Bible.

You are ignoring the reasons why such things were added. In understand the reasons why they were added, you can also understand when they were added.

And what is a "covenant?" It is an enforceable agreement.

No. It is a mutual agreement.

Are you saying there was "no law" prior to the Mosaic law?

Please read Deuteronomy 5:1-5.

Galatians 3 doesn't make that point.

In fact, it is quite explicit on that point. The law was added because of transgression 430 years after Abraham.

That means people were "transgressing" something before the "Mosaic law" was added.

That means that the Spirit is in fact capable of convicting a man with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment. You assume that the Holy Spirit is powerless without a written code.

What was being "transgressed?"

The conviction of the Spirit, resulting in wrong doing.

Exodus 12 does or did you miss that?

Please state the reason for connecting Exodus 12 and Exodus 31.

Sure, why wouldn't it?

Because such person had not experienced the exodus from Egypt.

I was being "sarcastic." Sorry you missed that.

Your sarcasm does not change Biblical truths.

BFA

**********************************

Still don't want to take a stab at answering my "who said this" question?

[Unless it is your believe that Dwight L. Moody is an inspired author whose writings are on par with Scripture in terms of reliability and authority, then you are trying to take us down yet another rabbit trail.]

 

[emilylauren]

I think the focus of this thread has been lost-- it was created to debate whether the "Sabbaths" mentioned in Col 2 were the yearly or weekly sabbath days, not a general "should we keep the Sabbath" argument. That being said, there were a few points that I wanted to quickly comment on.

There is no mention of God telling Adam ANYTHING about the day in Eden. God rested on the 7th day of creation and blessed it because HE rested from His labors. No doubt He spent that holy day with His creation. No doubt there was wonderful fellowship with Adam and Eve on their first day of life. But there was no mystery about why it was holy-because God finished the creation.

Nor was there any command to commemorate it at that point every week. God rested, and the day on which He rested the 7th of creation, was blessed and holy.

Indeed, and I think this is an interesting point to make. Did God create light and darkness every first day? Did he create man every sixth day? Then why it is assumed that he made holy every seventh day?

in Is 66:22-23 - in the New Earth - NO animal sacrifice mentioned as from "Sabbath to Sabbath" ALL mankind comes before God to Worship.

But I believe that earlier it was clarified that the word for Sabbath could also mean week—so could this passage not be read as saying “Week to week and month to month” God will be worshiped? As in ‘every day’—not just the Sabbath days?

Interestingly, the word "alone" is not found here. We know from Deuteronomy 5 that the sabbath was not given to man solely as a reminder of creation, but also as a reminder of the exodus from Egypt.

And this reminder of the exodus from Egypt is BASED ON God’s own rest during creation—so God did not just randomly choose a day for Israel, but gave them a day of significance to observe.

 

[RND]

Then why it is assumed that he made holy every seventh day?

Because He said He did?

Exd 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

If it wasn't holy already there would be absolutely no need to "keep" it holy, right?

But I believe that earlier it was clarified that the word for Sabbath could also mean week—so could this passage not be read as saying “Week to week and month to month” God will be worshiped? As in ‘every day’—not just the Sabbath days?

In the OT Hebrew "sabbath" means many things however "weeks" is not one of them.

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB76.htm#S7676

You might be thinking of the NT.

And this reminder of the exodus from Egypt is BASED ON God’s own rest during creation—so God did not just randomly choose a day for Israel, but gave them a day of significance to observe.

That is so, so true sister! And yet, even the gentiles were required to observe it and stop working.

 

[Lpe04]

I am asking that we consider one very specific topic in this thread--which sabbaths are being discussed in Col. 2:16?

I am not necessarily even interested in this thread in the overall interpretation of the passage, or the meaning of meat, drink etc. I am just wanting to try, if possible, to determine whether the sabbaths in col. 2 are weekly or yearly.

In the course of looking at that aspect there may be some interpretive work of the passage, context, etc., and that is fine. But please keep the topic on track. The main goal is to see what kind of Sabbath is indicated.

This is not a general debate about whether the Sabbath is to be kept or not. Save that for another thread please.

Both.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

RND: Because He said He did?

Nowhere in Scripture do we find confirmation that God and man set aside every seventh day for rest, beginning with the 14th day, the 21st day, the 28th day, etc.

Exd 20:8

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

There is no confirmation that God and man set aside every seventh day for rest prior to Exodus 16.

RND: If it wasn't holy already there would be absolutely no need to "keep" it holy, right?

This statement makes no sense to me. Can you help me understand it?

(1) It was holy already. God had given it to the Israelites in Exodus 16.

(2) The word "keep" makes no allusion to what had been done previously. If I were to come to you and ask you to keep my coat in your closet, there is no allusion to anything that had happened before.

(3) The word "remember" makes no allusion to what had been done previously. If I were to come to you and ask you to remember to call me at 7:00 p.m., my request would have nothing to do with what had been done previously.
​

RND: And yet, even the gentiles were required to observe it and stop working.

You are referring to those who were dwelling with the Israelites. There is no Biblical command that Gentiles who have no relationship with Israelites were to keep the sabbath.

EmilyLauren: And this reminder of the exodus from Egypt is BASED ON God’s own rest during creation—so God did not just randomly choose a day for Israel, but gave them a day of significance to observe.

Absolutely, He did. There's no question about that. Thanks for noting the dual purpose of the sabbath.

BFA

 

[RND]

This statement makes no sense to me. Can you help me understand it?

BFA1, no need to restate the obvious.

(1) It was holy already. God had given it to the Israelites in Exodus 16.

Yes. However keep in mind that the sabbath was made "holy" when it was "sanctified" in Genesis 2.

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

That means the day was set aside and made holy by God. Ask any Jewish/Messianic scholar and you'd get the exact same answer.

(2) The word "keep" makes no allusion to what had been done previously. If I were to come to you and ask you to keep my coat in your closet, there is no allusion to anything that had happened before.

Be serious BFA. If you tell your kid to "keep" his/her room clean at some point one must assume it was once clean, right?

Or do you tell them to keep their room clean when it's a filthy pig sty?

The commandments to "keep" the sabbath Holy is no different. To assume it wasn't holy before the commandment was given is to deny the obvious.

BTW, I notice in your allegory you made no mention as to whether your coat that you gave me to put in my closet was clean or dirty. If I kept it in my closet I would "keep" in in whatever state you gave to to me, clean or dirty. Qadash is simply another word for "clean." So, I'm going to assume if you gave me a "clean" coat to put in my closet you'd want it back in the same "clean" condition in which you gave it to me, right?

Say no. I dare you!

(3) The word "remember" makes no allusion to what had been done previously. If I were to come to you and ask you to remember to call me at 7:00 p.m., my request would have nothing to do with what had been done previously.

Sure, I understand that. Of course, I made no such argument - you did. But just for fun if I "forgot" to call you at 7:00pm would you be happy or sad?

Say you wouldn't care. I dare you!
​

You are referring to those who were dwelling with the Israelites. There is no Biblical command that Gentiles who have no relationship with Israelites were to keep the sabbath.

Right. So while in the land, dwelling with the Israelites the gentiles were required to "keep the sabbath." Why do you suppose God set it up this way BFA?

Absolutely, He did. There's no question about that. Thanks for noting the dual purpose of the sabbath.

I never NOT recognized the dual reasons for the sabbath. It all comes down to recognizing and obeying God's power.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA1, no need to restate the obvious.

If it was obvious, I wouldn't have asked the question.

However keep in mind that the sabbath was made "holy" when it was "sanctified" in Genesis 2.

The relevant question is whether is was sanctified for holy use by Adam.

That means the day was set aside and made holy by God.

Set aside for whom? What does the Bible say?

Be serious BFA. If you tell your kid to "keep" his/her room clean at some point one must assume it was once clean, right?

Yes, let's be serious. If I go in and clean my child's room and, while cleaning it, tell him that he must keep it clean thereafter, I make no reference to a past event.

To assume it wasn't holy before the commandment was given is to deny the obvious.

We've already agreed that it was holy as of Exodus 16. This is a moot point.

BTW, I notice in your allegory you made no mention as to whether your coat that you gave me to put in my closet was clean or dirty. If I kept it in my closet I would "keep" in in whatever state you gave to to me, clean or dirty. Qadash is simply another word for "clean." So, I'm going to assume if you gave me a "clean" coat to put in my closet you'd want it back in the same "clean" condition in which you gave it to me, right?

The record of Israel is clear. They did a poor job of keeping the sabbath. One would be hard pressed to make the claim that Israel was even able to keep the law in the same condition it was given to them (much less to improve on it by cleaning it up and returning it to the Master in a better condition in which it was given to them). Whether the coat was clean or dirty when God gave it to them (and of course we would agree that it was clean), Israel returned it to God dirty.

Sure, I understand that. Of course, I made no such argument - you did. But just for fun if I "forgot" to call you at 7:00pm would you be happy or sad?

If I was God, I would hardly be surprised. Throughout the Old Testament, Israel repeatedly failed to call. Clearly, God was displeased about that.

So while in the land, dwelling with the Israelites the gentiles were required to "keep the sabbath."

Note that I am not in the land, dwelling with Israelites.

Why do you suppose God set it up this way BFA?

To keep the peace.

It all comes down to recognizing and obeying God's power.

Indeed. Either He came to fulfill as He said that He did, and He is able to fulfill as He indicated He was, or we conclude that He isn't what He said He was and cannot do what He said He did.

BFA

 

[RND]

If it was obvious, I wouldn't have asked the question.

I wasn't referring to your question. "This statement makes no sense to me."

The relevant question is whether is was sanctified for holy use by Adam.

The "obvious" answer is that God sanctified the sabbath. God sanctified the sabbath that means man couldn't and did not need to.

God did. It's done.

Set aside for whom? What does the Bible say?

Man, AKA mankind.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Set aside for mankind.

Yes, let's be serious. If I go in and clean my child's room and, while cleaning it, tell him that he must keep it clean thereafter, I make no reference to a past event.

But you'd expect it to be "clean" from then on right?

We've already agreed that it was holy as of Exodus 16. This is a moot point.

It was "holy" AKA sanctified when it was made BFA. It's still that way. God doesn't change, men do.

The record of Israel is clear. They did a poor job of keeping the sabbath. One would be hard pressed to make the claim that Israel was even able to keep the law in the same condition it was given to them (much less to improve on it by cleaning it up and returning it to the Master in a better condition in which it was given to them). Whether the coat was clean or dirty when God gave it to them (and of course we would agree that it was clean), Israel returned it to God dirty.

Right. So, just like you would expect a "clean" coat to be returned to you if you gave me a "clean" coat to watch for you then you can obviously see that when God gave the commandment, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" it was just like your coat....."clean", "holy" or "sanctified" (take your pick) He expected it to be kept in the condition in which He gave it.

Let's try it this way. "Remember my coat to keep it clean."

It sucks doesn't it BFA when you finally get caught in your own circular reasoning doesn't it?

If I was God, I would hardly be surprised. Throughout the Old Testament, Israel repeatedly failed to call. Clearly, God was displeased about that.

Right. Didn't stop Him from laying out the instructions. It'd be the same as giving the car keys to your Corvette Z06 to your 16 year-old for the first time and saying, "don't speed!" You just know they're gonna.

Of course, as a parent, that doesn't mean you fail to give the instruction none the less. I've told my kids not to do something plenty of times even though I knew they'd disobey.

Note that I am not in the land, dwelling with Israelites.

Not "physically." You are most certainly spiritually.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

To keep the peace.

I thought maybe you'd say something like to provide the other nations instruction about the God of Abraham, Issaac and Jacob and all He did for the COI.

Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do [them]; for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation [is] a wise and understanding people. 7 For what nation [is there so] great, who [hath] God [so] nigh unto them, as the LORD our God [is] in all [things that] we call upon him [for]?8 And what nation [is there so] great, that hath statutes and judgments [so] righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Indeed. Either He came to fulfill as He said that He did, and He is able to fulfill as He indicated He was, or we conclude that He isn't what He said He was and cannot do what He said He did.

Christ definitely "filled the law full."

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

"All" has yet to be fulfilled. That explains why "heaven and earth" are still here.

Don't you hate it BFA to be trapped by you own circular reasoning?