Focused discussion--Are the Sabbaths of Col 2 weekly or yearly?

[Avonia]

So what's the answer to the dilemma?

The answer to the dilemma is understanding why there is a dilemma. Every belief of every person makes perfect sense if we can fully occupy their frame of reference. In doing this, I hope we can learn something about each other that helps us better understand what our beliefs seek to describe. And expand our perspective in the process.

 

[RND]

The answer to the dilemma is understanding why there is a dilemma. Every belief of every person makes perfect sense if we can fully occupy their frame of reference. In doing this, I hope we can learn something about each other that helps us better understand what our beliefs seek to describe. And expand our perspective in the process.

I guess that sounds a lot like how to eat an elephant! Patience is indeed a virtue!

Avonia is there a point at which the frame of reference is distorted and skewed that the view of it is fuzzy?

 

[Avonia]

I guess that sounds a lot like how to eat an elephant! Patience is indeed a virtue!

Avonia is there a point at which the frame of reference is distorted and skewed that the view of it is fuzzy?

This is always true - to widely varying degrees.

A good analogy for this is a hologram. Every piece of the holographic film, no matter how small, contains information about the whole image - from its own viewing angle. But the smaller the piece, the more limited the projection.

There is only one frame of reference with no distortion - God's.

 

[JonMiller]

I agree with this.

But doesn't it sorta invalidate you point about having so much better data about God than those who knew Christ face to face?

JM

 

[Avonia]

I agree with this.

But doesn't it sorta invalidate you point about having so much better data about God than those who knew Christ face to face?

JM

I like the analogy because it supports both our views. You are correct that many of the Bible authors had a unique perspective, and one that provided a view that is unique. We also see this in many indigenous traditions. Newer is not necessarily better - but newer is different.

We live in a time that affords us the opportunity to occupy - to the best of our ability - more perspectives than at any point in history.

 

[JonMiller]

Not all perspectives are equally valuable. You just posted this.

We also see this in science, not all observations are equally valid or even are of the same precision. And some measurement techiques are just poor for making the measurement because you can't deconvolute it.

It is like you are taking a bunch of poor data and allowing it to overcome the good data. Yeah, I agree that it is a bunch of data, but it isn't as good.

JM

 

[RND]

This is always true - to widely varying degrees.

A good analogy for this is a hologram. Every piece of the holographic film, no matter how small, contains information about the whole image - from its own viewing angle. But the smaller the piece, the more limited the projection.

There is only one frame of reference with no distortion - God's.

Paul did say that we only "see" a poor reflection of Christ in the mirror didn't he?

1Cr 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Gen 2:3 God makes the Sabbath Holy as His act on the 7th day of Creation week.​

​

Let's see if BFA accepts your premise. I'm a member of the SDA church and I don't accept your premise.

PMJI:
1) Why care what someone else says?
2) Where's the premise? Either text says what he said it said, or it doesn't?

 

[sentipente]

Christ came as a man. That is what his followers saw up close. Those who saw Him also saw the Father because the Father is reflected in everyman. We spend our time looking for something that is always before us.

 

[djconklin]

Those who saw Him also saw the Father because the Father is reflected in everyman.

Very imperfectly in us. OTOH, since we are called to be sons and daughters of God and we are made in His image then each of us deserves to be treated accordingly.

 

[trubeautie]

My understanding is that the sabbaths in Col 2 are those contained in the ordinances written by Moses' hand.

Col 2:14-16 - 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

2 Chron 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

Even the Bible makes a distinction:

Luke 1:6 - 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So basically we just need to determine which sabbaths were ordinances, of the handwriting of Moses. Those have already been given here. The seventh-day Sabbath has been here since creation (before Israel) and then given in the Ten Commandments.

 

[tall73]

Conklin, earlier in this thread I asked what would prevent the weekly sabbath from being included among the sabbbaths in the listing in Ezekiel 45:17. You replied:

1) No precedence.
2) Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts [chag], and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities [mow'ed] of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

But there is a precedence right there in the elaboration following Ezekiel 45:17.

In Ezekiel 45:17 the concept is introduced that the prince has the duty of providing the burnt offerings, food offerings and drink offerings at the appointed times. Some of these appointed times are spelled out in the next verses.

The rest of chapter 45 deals with the offerings during the passover, etc. and also makes reference to the feast of booths in the seventh month:


Eze 45:18 "Thus says the Lord GOD: In the first month, on the first day of the month, you shall take a bull from the herd without blemish, and purify the sanctuary.
Eze 45:19 The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple, the four corners of the ledge of the altar, and the posts of the gate of the inner court.
Eze 45:20 You shall do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who has sinned through error or ignorance; so you shall make atonement for the temple.
Eze 45:21 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall celebrate the Feast of the Passover, and for seven days unleavened bread shall be eaten.
Eze 45:22 On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a young bull for a sin offering.
Eze 45:23 And on the seven days of the festival he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven young bulls and seven rams without blemish, on each of the seven days; and a male goat daily for a sin offering.
Eze 45:24 And he shall provide as a grain offering an ephah for each bull, an ephah for each ram, and a hin of oil to each ephah.
Eze 45:25 In the seventh month, on the fifteenth day of the month and for the seven days of the feast, he shall make the same provision for sin offerings, burnt offerings, and grain offerings, and for the oil.


Chapter 46 goes on to elaborate on the offerings for the sabbath and new moon part of the equation. And the WEEKLY sabbath is in view. In other words, the weekly sabbath is included in Ezekiel 45:17, which you yourself recognize as a close parallel to Col. 2 in word order.

Eze 46:1 "Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.
Eze 46:5 And the grain offering with the ram shall be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs shall be as much as he is able, together with a hin of oil to each ephah.
Eze 46:6 On the day of the new moon he shall offer a bull from the herd without blemish, and six lambs and a ram, which shall be without blemish.
Eze 46:7 As a grain offering he shall provide an ephah with the bull and an ephah with the ram, and with the lambs as much as he is able, together with a hin of oil to each ephah.

 

[tall73]

I want someone to give me a good reason why it cannot be both.

After initially resisting this notion I have now come to agree with it.

After initially resisting Conklin's notion that the feasts in Col. 2 are the three annual feasts (pilgrimage feasts is the easier way to think of it) I now agree with him.

I have learned a lot in this thread.

 

[k4c]

The act of ceasing is the means by which God gives us to acknowledge something to be holy or separate, the ceasing itself is not what makes the thing holy. In other words, we have to find out why we are to cease on a certain day or event.

The fourth commandment is a commanded to remember the seventh day of creation to keep it holy. How this acknowledgement is done is by ceasing, it's not the ceasing itself that makes the day holy, the day is holy so we cease.

The sacredness of the seventh day was sanctifed and blessed before sin was in the world so it has nothing to do with the curse. All the other sabbaths, festivals and new moons came as a direct result of sin in which God used to paint a picture of how He was going to deal with sin through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. All this has nothing to do with the sacredness of the seventh day of creation. We find God making a distinction in Leviticus between His Sabbath and all the other sabbaths, which came as a direct result of sin and painted a picture of how God was going to deal with sin, which included the sin of profaning the Sabbath of the fourth commandment.

Leviticus 23:1-7 The Lord said to Moses, "Announce to the people of Israel that they are to celebrate several annual festivals of the Lord--times when all Israel will assemble and worship me. (These are in addition to your Sabbaths --the seventh day of every week--which are always days of rest in every home, times for assembling to worship, and for resting from the normal business of the week.) These are the holy festivals which are to be observed each year: "The Passover of the Lord: This is to be celebrated on the first day of April, beginning at sundown. "The Festival of Unleavened Bread: This is to be celebrated beginning the day following the Passover, and for seven days you must not eat any bread made with yeast. On the first day of this festival, you shall gather the people for worship, and all ordinary work shall cease.

Jesus fulfilled the feastivals, sabbaths and new moons, which were the shadows that came as a direct result of sin. The seventh day Sabbath is still alive and well in which Jesus is Lord of and the fact that Jesus is Lord of THE Sabbath makes a distinction from all the other sabbaths.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The seventh-day Sabbath has been here since creation (before Israel).

This assumption seems to negate Deuteronomy 5:1-5 and Galatians 3:15-20. Please clarify.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The sacredness of the seventh day was sanctifed and blessed before sin.

This assumption seems to negate Deuteronomy 5:1-5 and Galatians 3:15-20. Please clarify.

BFA

 

[k4c]

This assumption seems to negate Deuteronomy 5:1-5 and Galatians 3:15-20. Please clarify.

BFA

Hi BFA,

Sorry I took so long to get back to you. I work at a group home where I live for four days with no access to internet.

The law was added because of transgression. In other words, the law on stone was given because they were committing these acts so God had to spell it out for them. These were not new laws, they always existed. When Cain was thinking about killing his brother Abel God said sin was at his door. What sin? The sin of murder. Joseph would not commit adultery with Pharaoh’s wife. When the leaders of Israel were picked one of the standards was that they were not to be covetous. Idolatry, profaning God’s name and keeping the Sabbath holy were all laws that were in affect but they were breaking them. This is why God wrote them down. They were written down because of transgression. In other words, they were already breaking them before God wrote them down. But the law on stone does not nullify the promise; the promise was still to come.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Sorry I took so long to get back to you. I work at a group home where I live for four days with no access to internet.

No problem. There's no rush around here. We're pretty laid back.

The law was added because of transgression.

If it was added, was in previously in place?

In other words, the law on stone was given because they were committing these acts so God had to spell it out for them.

So it was not previously there?

These were not new laws, they always existed.

Would it be safe to say that the passover had always existed?


Would it be safe to say that animal sacrifices had always been offered?

When Cain was thinking about killing his brother Abel God said sin was at his door. What sin? The sin of murder.

We agree that sin exists even in the absence of law. That was true before it was added and it is also true since the Seed has come.


How was "sin" defined for Cain? By the law or by the Spirit?

Joseph would not commit adultery with Pharaoh’s wife.

How was "sin" defined for Joseph? By the law or by the Spirit? Again, we agree that sin exists even in the absence of law.

When the leaders of Israel were picked one of the standards was that they were not to be covetous. Idolatry, profaning God’s name and keeping the Sabbath holy were all laws that were in affect but they were breaking them. This is why God wrote them down.

Is it safe to conclude that every law written down represented distinct instructions that had always been in existence?

They were written down because of transgression.

Is that not also the reason why the covenant in which the law was included became obsolete -- i.e. because of the fault of the people (see Hebrews 8).

In other words, they were already breaking them before God wrote them down. But the law on stone does not nullify the promise; the promise was still to come.

Indeed it does not. For the letters engraved on stones were the ministry that brings death and were fading even during the life of Paul (see 2 Corinthians 3).


According to Galatians 3, what happened when the Seed came?

Is there any Biblical evidence that men were commanded to set aside a sabbath prior to sin?

BFA

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone; No problem. There's no rush around here. We're pretty laid back.

If it was added, was in previously in place?

So it was not previously there?

Were people held accountable and found guilty of any violation of any moral principle prior to God writing the Law on stone? The answer is yes.

Would it be safe to say that the passover had always existed?

Would it be safe to say that animal sacrifices had always been offered?

Sacrifice came as a result of violating God's standard.

We agree that sin exists even in the absence of law. That was true before it was added and it is also true since the Seed has come.


How was "sin" defined for Cain? By the law or by the Spirit?


How was "sin" defined for Joseph? By the law or by the Spirit? Again, we agree that sin exists even in the absence of law.


Is it safe to conclude that every law written down represented distinct instructions that had always been in existence?


Is that not also the reason why the covenant in which the law was included became obsolete -- i.e. because of the fault of the people (see Hebrews 8).


Indeed it does not. For the letters engraved on stones were the ministry that brings death and were fading even during the life of Paul (see 2 Corinthians 3).


According to Galatians 3, what happened when the Seed came?


Is there any Biblical evidence that men were commanded to set aside a sabbath prior to sin?

BFA

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

When God sanctifies something and calls it holy it means something to those who love God.

Holy: Set apart to the service or worship of God; hallowed; sacred; reserved from profane or common use; holy vessels; a holy priesthood. ``Holy rites and solemn feasts.

Sanctified: 1. To make, or declare to be, sacred; to appropriate to sacred uses; to set apart, dedicate, or devote, to the service or worship of God; as, to consecrate a church; to give (one's self) unreservedly, as to the service of God.
2. The act of consecrating, or of setting apart for a sacred purpose; consecration.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Were people held accountable and found guilty of any violation of any moral principle prior to God writing the Law on stone? The answer is yes.

Good. We agree. Then we should also be able to agree that sin exists even in the absence of law.

Sacrifice came as a result of violating God's standard.

If this is true, must we also conclude that the practice of "sacrifice" (including all of the convocations that include sacrifice) was not eternal?

Holy: Set apart to the service or worship of God; hallowed; sacred; reserved from profane or common use; holy vessels; a holy priesthood. ``Holy rites and solemn feasts.

Sanctified: 1. To make, or declare to be, sacred; to appropriate to sacred uses; to set apart, dedicate, or devote, to the service or worship of God; as, to consecrate a church; to give (one's self) unreservedly, as to the service of God.
2. The act of consecrating, or of setting apart for a sacred purpose; consecration.

What is the source of your definitions? Does Genesis 2 confirm your theory that the sabbath was set aside for man?

When God sanctifies something and calls it holy it means something to those who love God.

This is an assumption. Until Exodus 16, we have no Biblical confirmation that God asked man to anything different on the seventh day of the week.

However, let's imagine that your assumption is accurate. If man began observing a sabbath during the seventh day of creation week (as you seem to suggest), would we conclude that the seventh day sabbath is eternal or finite?

BFA