Focused discussion--Are the Sabbaths of Col 2 weekly or yearly?

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin You'll have to show it and be far more explicit.

I already did in post 64.

And I was supposed to remember?!?

This is a summary of the commandments regarding grain offerings, drink offerings and all the burnt offerings involved in the holy times.

I don't care about the offerings. The question is "What is meant by the word "feast" in the OT?"

 

[tall73]

And I was supposed to remember?!?

I don't care about the offerings. The question is "What is meant by the word "feast" in the OT?"

Conklin, the verse Ezek. 45:17 is a summary of this passage. So are some of the ones in Chronicles.

And it helps answer the question about the holy appointments.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

And I was supposed to remember?!?

I don't care about the offerings. The question is "What is meant by the word "feast" in the OT?"​

​

Conklin, the verse Ezek. 45:17 is a summary of this passage. So are some of the ones in Chronicles.

Whether is is a "summary" of the passage or not is irrelevant. The question is "What does the word "feast" mean in the OT?".

It begs the question that the same is true for some of the texts in Chronicles.

And it helps answer the question about the holy appointments.

And that question would be?

Please be explicit; I don't like guessing games.

 

[tall73]

Whether is is a "summary" of the passage or not is irrelevant. The question is "What does the word "feast" mean in the OT?".

It begs the question that the same is true for some of the texts in Chronicles.

And that question would be?

Please be explicit; I don't like guessing games.

The one raised earlier---would the Sabbath be included.

Yes, it does in fact make a difference whether it is a summary of Numbers. Because if it is a summary of the text in numbers then the same things are being talked about in both. And the weekly sabbath is included in the prescriptions of Numbers 28 and 29. Therefore the weekly sabbath is included in Ezekiel 45:17 which is a summary of Numbers 28 and 29.

Or to put it more plainly, the weekly sabbath is included in the sabbaths of Ezekiel 45:17.

And yes, it holds true for some texts in Chronicles as well.

 

[BobRyan]

Sabbath
Num 28:9 "On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering:
Num 28:10 this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.


New Moon
Num 28:11 "At the beginnings of your months, you shall offer a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;
...
Passover
Num 28:16 "On the fourteenth day of the first month is the LORD's Passover,
Num 28:17 and on the fifteenth day of this month is a feast. Seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Num 28:18 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Num 28:19 but offer a food offering, a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, and seven male lambs a year old; see that they are without blemish;




Feast of Weeks
Num 28:26 "On the day of the firstfruits, when you offer a grain offering of new grain to the LORD at your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Num 28:27 but offer a burnt offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old;


Feast of Trumpets
Num 29:1 "On the first day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a day for you to blow the trumpets,
Num 29:2 and you shall offer a burnt offering, for a pleasing aroma to the LORD: one bull from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;
Num 29:3 also their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah for the bull, two tenths for the ram,
...


Day of Atonement
Num 29:7 "On the tenth day of this seventh month you shall have a holy convocation and afflict yourselves. You shall do no work,
Num 29:8 but you shall offer a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma: one bull from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old: see that they are without blemish.
...

Feast of Tabernacles
Num 29:12 "On the fifteenth day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work, and you shall keep a feast to the LORD seven days.
Num 29:13 And you shall offer a burnt offering, a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD, thirteen bulls from the herd, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old; they shall be without blemish;
...


Num 29:39 "These you shall offer to the LORD at your appointed feasts, in addition to your vow offerings and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your grain offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings."
Num 29:40 So Moses told the people of Israel everything just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

In Lev 23 we have the "appointed times" that include both feast days and annual Sabbaths.

In the list above no "Feast of Sabbath" and no "feast of Atonement" -- in fact in Lev 23 the Day of Atonement is a day for humbling one's self before the Lord.

So just as we saw in Lev 23 with the "appointed times" including both the Feast days AS WELL as the annual Sabbaths...

The Point remains for Col 2 -- the annual Sabbaths were shadows of a future Messianic event. The feasts are listed in Lev 23.

in Col 2 -- Paul is not ENDING any of them -- rather he condemns those who judge others for their practice of them.

What significant detail Tall73 keeps overlooking with much effort - is that in Gen 2:3 and in Ex 20:8-11 AND in Ex 16 where we see Sabbath first made Holy - First defined - FIRST noted -- there is no "animal sacrifice" in the "definition" of that memorial of Christ's Work at Creation!

It is a memorial pointing BACK to Christ's finished work at Creation!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[RND]

In Lev 23 we have the "appointed times" that include both feast days and annual Sabbaths.

In the list above no "Feast of Sabbath" and no "feast of Atonement" -- in fact in Lev 23 the Day of Atonement is a day for humbling one's self before the Lord.

So just as we saw in Lev 23 with the "appointed times" including both the Feast days AS WELL as the annual Sabbaths...

The Point remains for Col 2 -- the annual Sabbaths were shadows of a future Messianic event. The feasts are listed in Lev 23.

in Col 2 -- Paul is not ENDING any of them -- rather he condemns those who judge others for their practice of them.

What significant detail Tall73 keeps overlooking with much effort - is that in Gen 2:3 and in Ex 20:8-11 AND in Ex 16 where we see Sabbath first made Holy - First defined - FIRST noted -- there is no "animal sacrifice" in the "definition" of that memorial of Christ's Work at Creation!

It is a memorial pointing BACK to Christ's finished work at Creation!

in Christ,

Bob

Great points Bob!

 

[tall73]

In Lev 23 we have the "appointed times" that include both feast days and annual Sabbaths.

And the weekly Sabbath.

But you are overlooking the important point here. Numbers 28 and 29 are what is being summarized in Ezekiel 45:17 which is the closest parallel to Col 2.

In the list above no "Feast of Sabbath" and no "feast of Atonement" -- in fact in Lev 23 the Day of Atonement is a day for humbling one's self before the Lord.

And yet there is a day of atonement and a weekly sabbath.

So just as we saw in Lev 23 with the "appointed times" including both the Feast days AS WELL as the annual Sabbaths...

and the weekly sabbath.

The Point remains for Col 2 -- the annual Sabbaths were shadows of a future Messianic event. The feasts are listed in Lev 23.

Actually the passover was, when it was DEFINED, as you like to say, was about the release from Egypt and the sparing of the firstborn of the Israelites. It was a memorial. And it still pointed forward to Jesus, and it points forward according to Luke to the kingdom.

And the Sabbath was a memorial of creation, and a memorial of release from Egypt, and the rest of salvation in Hebrews is called a sabbath rest, which points forward to rest in the promised land of heaven.

in Col 2 -- Paul is not ENDING any of them -- rather he condemns those who judge others for their practice of them.

Or non-practice. He says all of them are shadows. They are not the reality.

What significant detail Tall73 keeps overlooking with much effort - is that in Gen 2:3 and in Ex 20:8-11 AND in Ex 16 where we see Sabbath first made Holy - First defined - FIRST noted -- there is no "animal sacrifice" in the
"definition" of that memorial of Christ's Work at Creation!

And you keep overlooking that no weekly observance at all was noted in Gen. and that when it was made holy in Ex. it was for the Israelites as a sign.

It is a memorial pointing BACK to Christ's finished work at Creation!

in Christ,

Bob

Exactly, just like the passover pointed back to the exodus--and so did the sabbath in Deut.

A memorial for Israel.

Now perhaps you will address the actual point, that Ezekiel 45:17 is summarizing Numbers 28 and 29 because it IS reiterating the sacrifices for the holy times. And the holy times in Numbers 28 and 29 include the Sabbath.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Exactly, just like the passover pointed back to the exodus--and so did the sabbath in Deut.

I've yet to see this issue addressed directly.

BFA

 

[RND]

Exactly, just like the passover pointed back to the exodus

Tall, the passover is not a 'memorial' to the Exodus. The passover was instructed to be done "before" the Exodus. It was a "token" (sign) of the effects of the blood covering sin.

Exd 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye [are]: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy [you], when I smite the land of Egypt.

Exodus 12 goes on to say:

Exd 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service? Exd 12:27 That ye shall say, It [is] the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

Before there can be an "exodus" from Egypt (sin) the blood of the lamb (Jesus, "the sacrifice of the Lord") must be shed.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Tall, the passover is not a 'memorial' to the Exodus.

If there had been no passover, would there have been an exodus?

BFA

 

[RND]

If there had been no passover, would there have been an exodus?

BFA

Can't say definitively one way or the other. Of course, no matter what I answer it doesn't change the fact that the passover was not a memorial to the exodus.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Can't say definitively one way or the other. Of course, no matter what I answer it doesn't change the fact that the passover was not a memorial to the exodus.

How do you separate the two? Without the blood, there was no freedom. Think about what these things symbolize.

BFA

 

[RND]

How do you separate the two?

Scripture. Truth.

Without the blood, there was no freedom.

Correct.

Think about what these things symbolize.

I have. Passover is not a memorial to the exodus, it is the physical type of God's actual sacrifice. One must accept the blood, use the blood to cover their sin (door post, "Sin lieth at your door....") and ingest the sacrifice (John 6:55) in order to safe from the plague of death.

Ever notice BFA1 that confession of sin was never made over the passover lamb? This signifies that it is God and His sacrifice that does the work of covering sin and that confession is not a requirement in being covered, acceptance is.

Chapter 13 - The Passover

The Passover was the opening feast of the yearly round of religious services. It was both commemorative and typical, commemorative of the deliverance of the children of Israel from the bondage of Egypt, and typical of the deliverance from the thralldom of sin of every individual who claims Christ as his Passover Lamb, and accepts His blood as a covering for past sins. (1 Cor. 5:7)

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Passover is not a memorial to the exodus, it is the physical type of God's actual sacrifice.

Which allows for the exodus and freedom.

You previously indicated that you cannot say definitively that, if there had been no passover lamb, there would have been no exodus. Hopefully you are now ready to amend this statement.

It would be a tragedy if one read the story of the exodus and the story of the cross and failed to notice the connection between the shedding of blood and the exodus. Jesus Christ is the passover lamb. His sacrifice is what makes the exodus (and the subsequent freedom) possible.

BFA

 

[RND]

Which allows for the exodus and freedom.

No doubt. But without God's sacrifice the exodus most assuredly couldn't have happened. The answer to the question you asked me, "If there had been no passover, would there have been an exodus?" I should expand on slightly which I didn't before.

The "passover" is symbolic for the covering of sin. In that sense, yes, there would have had to be a Passover before the exodus from Egypt.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You previously indicated that you cannot say definitively that, if there had been no passover lamb, there would have been no exodus. Hopefully you are now ready to amend this statement.

Yes. My answer was in respect to whether or not God could have offered a different way or different sacrifice, not whether one was necessary.

It would be a tragedy if one read the story of the exodus and the story of the cross and failed to notice the connection between the shedding of blood and the exodus.

This is definitely true.

Jesus Christ is the passover lamb. His sacrifice is what makes the exodus (and the subsequent freedom) possible.

Right! That's why I was saying the Passover is not a memorial to the exodus but it is a memorial of the work of God shedding His blood for the remission of sin.

 

[BobRyan]

Can't say definitively one way or the other. Of course, no matter what I answer it doesn't change the fact that the passover was not a memorial to the exodus.

The fact is that Passover as instituted on day one was "defined" by "animal sacrifice". Take away the lamb and you have nothing in that service.

By contrast God's own Holy Day was DEFINED in Gen 2:3 by rest.

God confirms this in Ex 20:8-11 - as HE points us BACK to Gen 2:3 and show how it is to be observed.

And in Is 66:22-23 we see the Sabbath (again WITHOUT animal sacrifice) being observed for all eternity in the New Earth by "ALL MANKIND" who "come before God to WORSHIP".

And as Christ confirms in Mark 2:27 regarding HIS OWN Holy day "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND"

It could not be any easier to understand.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Lev 23 we have the "appointed times" that include both feast days and annual Sabbaths.
​

Tall73
And the weekly Sabbath.

I agree that in Lev 23:2 the "appointed times" includes the weekly Sabbath -- they also include FEASTS (as we see in Lev 23:4) AND they include the annual Sabbaths - days of Holy Convocation in some cases.

In Romans 14 Paul references those annual days and says "one observes ONE ABOVE the others" while another man "highly regards them ALL".

Tall73
But you are overlooking the important point here. Numbers 28 and 29 are what is being summarized in Ezekiel 45:17 which is the closest parallel to Col 2.

Seems like a bit too much of a stretch - given that Paul has areadly simplified the task for us in Col 2 with FEASTS and Sabbaths that are SHADOWS of a future Messianic event - which by definition -- all of the annual animal-sacrifice-centric Sabbaths were -- "Christ our Passover has been slain" 1Cor 5.

You are looking for the lonnnng way around when the direct path is right in front of us.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I've yet to see this issue addressed directly.

BFA

I agree that Passover is given as a memorial BUT it was DEFINED from day one in "animal sacrifice" as the lamb's blood painted on the doorpost from the VERY START pointed forward to the blood of Christ "by definition".

So you have a memorial service -- which memorializes the Hebrews IN EGYPT USING animal blood to OBTAIN salvation - where the animal is defined as being a type of the coming Messiah.

NOTHING of the KIND was present for the HOLY DAY of Gen 2:3 that is clearly identified in Ex 20:8-11.

the point could not be more glaringly obvious to the unbiased objective reader.

So ALSO the ALL MANKIND scope for Sabbath in Gen 2:3 and in Is 66:22-23 and in Mark 2:27.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[RND]

The fact is that Passover as instituted on day one was "defined" by "animal sacrifice". Take away the lamb and you have nothing in that service.

By contrast God's own Holy Day was DEFINED in Gen 2:3 by rest.

God confirms this in Ex 20:8-11 - as HE points us BACK to Gen 2:3 and show how it is to be observed.

And in Is 66:22-23 we see the Sabbath (again WITHOUT animal sacrifice) being observed for all eternity in the New Earth by "ALL MANKIND" who "come before God to WORSHIP".

And as Christ confirms in Mark 2:27 regarding HIS OWN Holy day "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND"

It could not be any easier to understand.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, we see the passover as a memorial to God providing a lamb for the salvation of man throughout scripture.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I agree that Passover is given as a memorial

The sabbath was also given as a reminder.

BUT it was DEFINED from day one in "animal sacrifice"

God clearly commanded the recipients of the sabbath to offer animal sacrifices in conjunction with their sabbath observance.

NOTHING of the KIND was present for the HOLY DAY of Gen 2:3 that is clearly identified in Ex 20:8-11.

This statement is based on your assumption that God gave the sabbath to man in Genesis 2. There is, in fact, no evidence that this is true, and much evidence that this is not true. The sabbath was given as a reminder of the exodus, an event that had not occurred in Genesis 2:3.

So ALSO the ALL MANKIND scope for Sabbath in Gen 2:3 and in Is 66:22-23 and in Mark 2:27.

You do like to meditate on those dead bodies, don't you? Perhaps one day you'll being to advocate for the observance of new moons as well?

BFA