Focused discussion--Are the Sabbaths of Col 2 weekly or yearly?

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by tall73
You had said before that heorte was not ever used of the day of atonement.

Originally Posted by djconklin
Actually, I never said that.

What you said was that it was not used in Lev. 23.

I believe I said (or, at least should have), is that the Day of Atonement (nor the blowing of trumpets) are not called "feasts."

Originally Posted by djconklin

For those who don't yet understand: there is no linkage, or use of, the word "heorte" with the Day of Atonement in Lev 23.
​

[URL]http://christianforums.com/showpost....5&postcount=21

If you look at Lev. 23 closely you will not see "heorte" being applied to the Day of Atonement (verses 27-8), nor the blowing of trumpets (verse 24). That is what I am referring to.

 

[djconklin]

Conklin, in looking at Hosea and at Ezekiel they do use chag.

Hosea 2:11 uses "mow'ed." As does Neh. 10:33 which also calls them "set feasts" as does 1 Chron. 23:31 & 2 Chron. 31:3. In 2 Chron. 2:4, 8:13 they are called "solemn feasts."

So I am reconsidering my position based on the parallels. I will think this over some more.

Actually, you are helping me to strengthen my paper! Thank you, very much!

These would be the closest parallels, not Lev. 23, which nonetheless uses heorte for all of the assemblies.

As an over-arching term. Never in connection with the Day of Atonement or the blowing of trumpets, as compared to how it is used with the other three.

However the following texts use mowed rather than chag, though it is in a different order.

1Ch 23:31 and whenever burnt offerings were offered to the LORD on Sabbaths, new moons, and [set] feast days, according to the number required of them, regularly before the LORD.

2Ch 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, as ordained forever for Israel.

2Ch 31:3 The contribution of the king from his own possessions was for the burnt offerings: the burnt offerings of morning and evening, and the burnt offerings for the Sabbaths, the new moons, and the appointed feasts, as it is written in the Law of the LORD.

That is correct; a fact I noted:

"One sometimes finds references to the following texts in the OT: 1 Chron. 23:31; 2 Chron. 2:4, 8:13, 31:3; Neh. 10:33; Ezek. 45:17 and Hos. 2:11 -- see Table 1. However, when one reads these texts one is surprised to find that, with the exception of the last two, the feasts are given in reverse order!" see http://www.666man.net/Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/216c.html

 

[tall73]

Hosea 2:11 uses "mow'ed."

Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Now that you mentioned it this one seems different yet. I looked at the term in burgandy when I said it used chag. You were apparently referencing the term in purple, which is Mowed.

So would this be

feast days
new moons
sabbaths
solemn feasts

or

feast days
new moons
sabbaths

which together comprise the solemn feasts?


The same issue seems present in Ezekiel.

 

[djconklin]

feast days
new moons
sabbaths

which together comprise the solemn feasts?

That's the way I would read it. The "solemn feasts" are "appointed times" or "set times."

The same issue seems present in Ezekiel.

The same structure is present:

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts [chag], and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities [mow'ed] of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.​

 

[bugkiller]

trying again

First thanks to both dj and tall for their efforts and help. My understanding is increased.

I am not saying that the word "week" is not used in the place of the word "sabbaton." I am saying that the day of the week is what is being identified. The week is not being identified. The way in which the phrase "mia ton Sabbaton" is translated is unfortunate to say the least. I do realize and understand the KJV uses the word "week." A more literal translation would be "the first day toward the sabbath" or maybe "one to sabbath." This is in Greek with the Hebrew manner of speaking of days. Every day is identified in relationship to the sabbath. The translation could clearly be "Sunday" which is the day being identified. If such were the actual word the word "week" would not appear. Thus my understanding that "sabbaton" is not translated as "week." The text is not talking about the week but about the day.

I am very interested where the word "sabbaton" indicates we are to understand the period of a week not making reference to a single day of the same.

bugkiller

 

[tall73]

That's the way I would read it. The "solemn feasts" are "appointed times" or "set times."

The same structure is present:

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts [chag], and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities [mow'ed] of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.​

Why do you think the new moon was not listed as a set time in Lev. 23? And what would prevent the weekly sabbath from being included in the set times or with the day of atonement and trumptes in the sabbaths?

 

[sentipente]

All this discussion and no one can show that Paul intended his letters to be used the way they are being used.

 

[djconklin]

I am saying that the day of the week is what is being identified.

Trying again: No. The word "sabbaton" is being translated as "week" vs. always being translated as "Sabbath" as is commonly claimed. I.e., the word can have more than one meaning vs. only being the seventh-day Sabbath.

The way in which the phrase "mia ton Sabbaton" is translated is unfortunate to say the least.

There's no basis for saying that. That is the way the Greek language works. It reflects the way the Hebrews thought. They didn't name the days of the week (except the Sabbath) and the way they kept track of the other 6 days was in reference to the Sabbath.

A more literal translation would be "the first day toward the sabbath"

More accurately the first day after the Sabbath.

Young's Literal Translation 1 Corinthians 16:2 on every first day of the week,

In most of the other cases where the word "week" is used, the YLT has "the first of the sabbaths." But, in Luke 18:12 it has "I fast twice in the week."

The text is not talking about the week but about the day.

No one said it was talking about a week. It is simply that the word is translated as "week" vs. only meaning the seventh-day Sabbath.

I am very interested where the word "sabbaton" indicates we are to understand the period of a week

Only in Luke 18:12. See the above remarks.

 

[djconklin]

Why do you think the new moon was not listed as a set time in Lev. 23?

I have no idea--perhaps to avoid confusion. The time (it would seem to me) to be "set."

And what would prevent the weekly sabbath from being included in the set times or with the day of atonement and trumptes in the sabbaths?

1) No precedence.
2) Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts [chag], and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities [mow'ed] of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

 

[djconklin]

All this discussion and no one can show that Paul intended his letters to be used the way they are being used.

Correct! No one can prove that Paul meant what most "think" he meant. In fact, the evidence points in the other direction! For more details, see http://www.666man.net//Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html

 

[BobRyan]

(From Post #19)

The 7th-day Sabbath in Lev 23 is said to be a Sabbath of "holy convocation" but is not called a feast in Lev 23 and in fact is not a feast.

The Day of Atonement in Lev 23 is said to be a "Sabbath of holy convocation" but is not said to be a "feast" in Lev 23.

The Jubilie rest every 7th year is a Sabbath that is also not a "feast" as John Gill points out.

The translators of NASB and Young's Literal Translation appear to be correct in Lev 23:2, 4 with the term "appointed times" (translit - Miqra') and then in vs 6 "FEAST of Unleavened Bread" (translit - Chag) for that which is actually a feast day.

I think Paul in Col 2 is using a compatible phrasing as is already used in the OT for these annual appointed times.

However Paul is not actually "doing away with any" of the Lev 23 days in Col 2 -- rather he is doing away with the idea of judging others for keeping them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[RND]

However Paul is not actually "doing away with any" of the Lev 23 days in Col 2 -- rather he is doing away with the idea of judging others for keeping them.

That has become my understanding as well.

 

[sentipente]

Correct! No one can prove that Paul meant what most "think" he meant. In fact, the evidence points in the other direction!

Please don't co-opt my post to make a totally opposite point as if that is what I intended to say.

 

[Joe67]

Though our Lord could read the scroll, it is not evident that he read from an academic, grammatical understanding of the language. Just like the way we learn to speak, read and write long before we learn any of the science of the words.

Grammar has never solved/resolved any testimony of the Spirit. It has been used to transfer written information which as a bodily exercise is useful for a little while.

So how did Jesus know, having never learned letters? Grammar or Spirit? Can we know the answer to the OP through the Spirit?

Joe

 

[tall73]

I have no idea--perhaps to avoid confusion. The time (it would seem to me) to be "set."

1) No precedence.
2) Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts [chag], and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities [mow'ed] of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

But there is a precedence in the very passage that is relating back to which is Numbers 28-29.

 

[djconklin]

However Paul is not actually "doing away with any" of the Lev 23 days in Col 2 -- rather he is doing away with the idea of judging others for keeping them.

No, the believers were being judged by their ascetic critics for eating and drinking _on_ the days that are then mentioned. Paul is aying "don't let them judge you about your eating and drinking" on those days. Think Venn diagram. In one we have eating and drinking. In the second we have days. What is being judged is the overlap.

 

[djconklin]

But there is a precedence in the very passage that is relating back to which is Numbers 28-29.

You'll have to show it and be far more explicit.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

Correct! No one can prove that Paul meant what most "think" he meant. In fact, the evidence points in the other direction!​

​

Please don't co-opt my post to make a totally opposite point as if that is what I intended to say.

Silly me for assuming you said what you meant to say _and_ got it right.

 

[RND]

Silly me for assuming you said what you meant to say _and_ got it right.

I laughed out loud at this! Hey, DJ, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while!

 

[tall73]

You'll have to show it and be far more explicit.

I already did in post 64. But here it is again:


Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

This is a summary of the commandments regarding grain offerings, drink offerings and all the burnt offerings involved in the holy times. And the passage that outlines those offerings for the holy times makes it clear that it includes the weekly Sabbath:



Sabbath
Num 28:9 "On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering:
Num 28:10 this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.


New Moon
Num 28:11 "At the beginnings of your months, you shall offer a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;
Num 28:12 also three tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for each bull, and two tenths of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram;
Num 28:13 and a tenth of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering for every lamb; for a burnt offering with a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD.
Num 28:14 Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull, a third of a hin for a ram, and a quarter of a hin for a lamb. This is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year.
Num 28:15 Also one male goat for a sin offering to the LORD; it shall be offered besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.


Passover
Num 28:16 "On the fourteenth day of the first month is the LORD's Passover,
Num 28:17 and on the fifteenth day of this month is a feast. Seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Num 28:18 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Num 28:19 but offer a food offering, a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, and seven male lambs a year old; see that they are without blemish;
Num 28:20 also their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil; three tenths of an ephah shall you offer for a bull, and two tenths for a ram;
Num 28:21 a tenth shall you offer for each of the seven lambs;
Num 28:22 also one male goat for a sin offering, to make atonement for you.
Num 28:23 You shall offer these besides the burnt offering of the morning, which is for a regular burnt offering.
Num 28:24 In the same way you shall offer daily, for seven days, the food of a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD. It shall be offered besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.
Num 28:25 And on the seventh day you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work.


Feast of Weeks
Num 28:26 "On the day of the firstfruits, when you offer a grain offering of new grain to the LORD at your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Num 28:27 but offer a burnt offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old;
Num 28:28 also their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah for each bull, two tenths for one ram,
Num 28:29 a tenth for each of the seven lambs;
Num 28:30 with one male goat, to make atonement for you.
Num 28:31 Besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering, you shall offer them and their drink offering. See that they are without blemish.


Feast of Trumpets
Num 29:1 "On the first day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a day for you to blow the trumpets,
Num 29:2 and you shall offer a burnt offering, for a pleasing aroma to the LORD: one bull from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;
Num 29:3 also their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah for the bull, two tenths for the ram,
Num 29:4 and one tenth for each of the seven lambs;
Num 29:5 with one male goat for a sin offering, to make atonement for you;
Num 29:6 besides the burnt offering of the new moon, and its grain offering, and the regular burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offering, according to the rule for them, for a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD.


Day of Atonement
Num 29:7 "On the tenth day of this seventh month you shall have a holy convocation and afflict yourselves. You shall do no work,
Num 29:8 but you shall offer a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma: one bull from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old: see that they are without blemish.
Num 29:9 And their grain offering shall be of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah for the bull, two tenths for the one ram,
Num 29:10 a tenth for each of the seven lambs:
Num 29:11 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the sin offering of atonement, and the regular burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings.


Feast of Tabernacles
Num 29:12 "On the fifteenth day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work, and you shall keep a feast to the LORD seven days.
Num 29:13 And you shall offer a burnt offering, a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD, thirteen bulls from the herd, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old; they shall be without blemish;
Num 29:14 and their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah for each of the thirteen bulls, two tenths for each of the two rams,
Num 29:15 and a tenth for each of the fourteen lambs;
Num 29:16 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the regular burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering.
Num 29:17 "On the second day twelve bulls from the herd, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:18 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:19 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings.
Num 29:20 "On the third day eleven bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:21 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:22 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering.
Num 29:23 "On the fourth day ten bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:24 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:25 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the regular burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering.
Num 29:26 "On the fifth day nine bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:27 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:28 also one male goat for a sin offering; besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering.
Num 29:29 "On the sixth day eight bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:30 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:31 also one male goat for a sin offering; besides the regular burnt offering, its grain offering, and its drink offerings.
Num 29:32 "On the seventh day seven bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:33 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:34 also one male goat for a sin offering; besides the regular burnt offering, its grain offering, and its drink offering.
Num 29:35 "On the eighth day you shall have a solemn assembly. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Num 29:36 but you shall offer a burnt offering, a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD: one bull, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:37 and the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bull, for the ram, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:38 also one male goat for a sin offering; besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering.



Num 29:39 "These you shall offer to the LORD at your appointed feasts, in addition to your vow offerings and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your grain offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings."
Num 29:40 So Moses told the people of Israel everything just as the LORD had commanded Moses.