Focused discussion--Are the Sabbaths of Col 2 weekly or yearly?

[djconklin]

Fist is Col 2:16 referring to the weekly Sabbath? My answer is an emphatic yes. The word “Sabbaton” is used in every reference (59 times) to the weekly Sabbath in the NT.

One web site (now defunct) took Nichol to task for using the KJV and not consulting the Greek.* It is noteworthy that they failed to do so in reference to this word.

* This site also claims that Nichol admits that of the sixty times "sabbath(s)" is used in the NT "fifty-nine of them refer to the Saturday Sabbath of Seventh Day rest." One notes in vain for a source of this; which is even more puzzling considering it is false! The word "sabba*" is used 69 times in 63 verses and in 9 cases it means "week":

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (sabbaton), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week (sabbaton), they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week (sabbaton), he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week (sabbaton), I give tithes of all that I possess.

Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week (sabbaton), very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

John 20:1 The first day of the week (sabbaton) cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week (sabbaton), when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week (sabbaton), when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week (sabbaton) let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

 

[tall73]

If you study how the phrase "feasts, new moons, and sabbaths" (more usually the reverse order) is used in the OT and specifically what is covered by the word "feasts" you find that two ceremonial sabbaths (the Day of Atonement and the blowing of trumpets) are never counted as "feasts." So, the short-hand way of listing all the ceremonial days of the year is to say "feasts, new moons and sabbaths." For more details see the study at http://www.666man.net//Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html

Miqra (Hebrew) and chag(Hebrew) are both types of moed (Hebrew). In Lev. 23, the most complete explanation of the various feasts, moed (Hebrew) is rendered εορται (Greek) in Leviticus 23, which is the listing of all the εορται of the Lord .

All of the appointed times are called moed(Hebrew)/εορται(Greek) in verse 4:

Lev 23:4 "These are the appointed feasts (εορτα&#953(moed) of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.

Moed is translated εορται in verse 4 in the Greek. All of the moed, the appointed times for Israel, are εορται.

Lev 23:4 Αὗται αἱ ἑορταὶ τῷ κυρίῳ, κληταὶ ἅγιαι, ἃς καλέσετε αὐτὰς ἐν τοῖς καιροῖς αὐτῶν.

All of the appointed times after verse 4 in the whole chapter are called εορται which is the word we see in Colossians.

Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,

Therefore the Day of Atonement is one of the εορται of the Lord. They are all the appointed times of the Lord.

 

[djconklin]

Miqra (Hebrew) and chag(Hebrew) are both types of moed (Hebrew) at the beginning of the chapter.

Which verses, in which chapter?

The words for "feast" (chag*/heorte) are never applied to The Day of Atonement or the blowing of trumpets. We can take "mow'ed" to mean "celebration" or better "solemn occasion"--there's no question about that concept being applied to the Day of Atonement or the blowing of trumpets. They were not "feasts" and so cannot be covered under the term.

 

[tall73]

Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

Conklin, you referenced this text as being in the same order. This is a summary of the commandments regarding grain offerings, drink offerings and all the burnt offerings involved in the holy times. And the passage that outlines those offerings for the holy times makes it clear that it includes the weekly Sabbath:



Sabbath
Num 28:9 "On the Sabbath day, two male lambs a year old without blemish, and two tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, and its drink offering:
Num 28:10 this is the burnt offering of every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.


New Moon
Num 28:11 "At the beginnings of your months, you shall offer a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;
Num 28:12 also three tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for each bull, and two tenths of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram;
Num 28:13 and a tenth of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering for every lamb; for a burnt offering with a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD.
Num 28:14 Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull, a third of a hin for a ram, and a quarter of a hin for a lamb. This is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year.
Num 28:15 Also one male goat for a sin offering to the LORD; it shall be offered besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.


Passover
Num 28:16 "On the fourteenth day of the first month is the LORD's Passover,
Num 28:17 and on the fifteenth day of this month is a feast. Seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Num 28:18 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Num 28:19 but offer a food offering, a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, and seven male lambs a year old; see that they are without blemish;
Num 28:20 also their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil; three tenths of an ephah shall you offer for a bull, and two tenths for a ram;
Num 28:21 a tenth shall you offer for each of the seven lambs;
Num 28:22 also one male goat for a sin offering, to make atonement for you.
Num 28:23 You shall offer these besides the burnt offering of the morning, which is for a regular burnt offering.
Num 28:24 In the same way you shall offer daily, for seven days, the food of a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD. It shall be offered besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.
Num 28:25 And on the seventh day you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work.


Feast of Weeks
Num 28:26 "On the day of the firstfruits, when you offer a grain offering of new grain to the LORD at your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Num 28:27 but offer a burnt offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old;
Num 28:28 also their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah for each bull, two tenths for one ram,
Num 28:29 a tenth for each of the seven lambs;
Num 28:30 with one male goat, to make atonement for you.
Num 28:31 Besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering, you shall offer them and their drink offering. See that they are without blemish.


Feast of Trumpets
Num 29:1 "On the first day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a day for you to blow the trumpets,
Num 29:2 and you shall offer a burnt offering, for a pleasing aroma to the LORD: one bull from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;
Num 29:3 also their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah for the bull, two tenths for the ram,
Num 29:4 and one tenth for each of the seven lambs;
Num 29:5 with one male goat for a sin offering, to make atonement for you;
Num 29:6 besides the burnt offering of the new moon, and its grain offering, and the regular burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offering, according to the rule for them, for a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD.


Day of Atonement
Num 29:7 "On the tenth day of this seventh month you shall have a holy convocation and afflict yourselves. You shall do no work,
Num 29:8 but you shall offer a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma: one bull from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old: see that they are without blemish.
Num 29:9 And their grain offering shall be of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah for the bull, two tenths for the one ram,
Num 29:10 a tenth for each of the seven lambs:
Num 29:11 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the sin offering of atonement, and the regular burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings.


Feast of Tabernacles
Num 29:12 "On the fifteenth day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work, and you shall keep a feast to the LORD seven days.
Num 29:13 And you shall offer a burnt offering, a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD, thirteen bulls from the herd, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old; they shall be without blemish;
Num 29:14 and their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil, three tenths of an ephah for each of the thirteen bulls, two tenths for each of the two rams,
Num 29:15 and a tenth for each of the fourteen lambs;
Num 29:16 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the regular burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering.
Num 29:17 "On the second day twelve bulls from the herd, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:18 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:19 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings.
Num 29:20 "On the third day eleven bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:21 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:22 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering.
Num 29:23 "On the fourth day ten bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:24 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:25 also one male goat for a sin offering, besides the regular burnt offering, its grain offering and its drink offering.
Num 29:26 "On the fifth day nine bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:27 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:28 also one male goat for a sin offering; besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering.
Num 29:29 "On the sixth day eight bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:30 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:31 also one male goat for a sin offering; besides the regular burnt offering, its grain offering, and its drink offerings.
Num 29:32 "On the seventh day seven bulls, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:33 with the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bulls, for the rams, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:34 also one male goat for a sin offering; besides the regular burnt offering, its grain offering, and its drink offering.
Num 29:35 "On the eighth day you shall have a solemn assembly. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Num 29:36 but you shall offer a burnt offering, a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the LORD: one bull, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish,
Num 29:37 and the grain offering and the drink offerings for the bull, for the ram, and for the lambs, in the prescribed quantities;
Num 29:38 also one male goat for a sin offering; besides the regular burnt offering and its grain offering and its drink offering.



Num 29:39 "These you shall offer to the LORD at your appointed feasts, in addition to your vow offerings and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your grain offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings."
Num 29:40 So Moses told the people of Israel everything just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

 

[tall73]

Which verses, in which chapter?

The words for "feast" (chag*/heorte) are never applied to The Day of Atonement or the blowing of trumpets. We can take "mow'ed" to mean "celebration" or better "solemn occasion"--there's no question about that concept being applied to the Day of Atonement or the blowing of trumpets. They were not "feasts" and so cannot be covered under the term.

Again missing the point. The word for feast in Col. 2 is the same one that is also used to describe all of the appointed times in Lev. 23 as Oldsage also pointed out to you some time ago.


Lev 23:4 "These are the appointed feasts (εορτα&#953of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival (εορτη&#962 or a new moon or a Sabbath.

 

[djconklin]

Which verse and which chapter use the word "miqra"?

 

[djconklin]

Conklin, you referenced this text as being in the same order.

Actually, I think I stated that it was one of two that had the same order; most are in reverse order.

This is a summary of the commandments regarding grain offerings, drink offerings and all the burnt offerings involved in the holy times.

Not relevant as to what is called a feast and what is not.

The word for feast in Col. 2 is the same one that is also used to describe all of the appointed times in Lev. 23

Actually Lev. 23 uses two terms. I paid attention to the use of _both_ terms.

 

[bugkiller]

Hi DJ,

So is the word “sabbaton” really the word for “week, or Sabbath?” A single day cannot be the same thing as a week. Translation causes a problem. The literal way would be “first day toward the Sabbath,” “second day toward the Sabbath” etc. with Friday being called “preparation day.” Translation is done in a way that usually makes use of language structure opposed to literal. We would have even a harder time understanding a literal rendition. Thus we have first day of the week and not the first day toward the Sabbath. The latter being more literal. All the verses you cited are clearly identifying a day and not indicating a week - seven days. I referred to the number of times the word “Sabbath” is used not the number of times “Sabbaton” appears in the NT. Slight difference.

A play on words or sentence structure will not work. You will have do try extra hard to discredit me. I am not above misunderstanding or error.

I missed a great point in a BobRyan post, that of sacrifice. He wrote about Sabbaths that required animal sacrifice being called “shadow Sabbaths.” Check out what was required of God on “the Sabbath day” in Numbers 28:9. Guess that makes the weekly Sabbath a “shadow Sabbath.”

bugkiller

 

[tall73]

Actually, I think I stated that it was one of two that had the same order; most are in reverse order.

Not relevant as to what is called a feast and what is not.

Actually Lev. 23 uses two terms. I paid attention to the use of _both_ terms.

Actually it is directly relevant because it is an explanation of the list just like Col. 2 in Ezekiel 45.

And as for two terms, the facts are all of them are called eortai. Therefore eortai encompasses all of them.

 

[tall73]

Hi DJ,

So is the word “sabbaton” really the word for “week, or Sabbath?” A single day cannot be the same thing as a week. Translation causes a problem. The literal way would be “first day toward the Sabbath,” “second day toward the Sabbath” etc. with Friday being called “preparation day.” Translation is done in a way that usually makes use of language structure opposed to literal. We would have even a harder time understanding a literal rendition. Thus we have first day of the week and not the first day toward the Sabbath. The latter being more literal. All the verses you cited are clearly identifying a day and not indicating a week - seven days. I referred to the number of times the word “Sabbath” is used not the number of times “Sabbaton” appears in the NT. Slight difference.

A play on words or sentence structure will not work. You will have do try extra hard to discredit me. I am not above misunderstanding or error.

I missed a great point in a BobRyan post, that of sacrifice. He wrote about Sabbaths that required animal sacrifice being called “shadow Sabbaths.” Check out what was required of God on “the Sabbath day” in Numbers 28:9. Guess that makes the weekly Sabbath a “shadow Sabbath.”

bugkiller

Actually sabbaton can be translated as week.

But as for sacrifices, yes there were sacrifices mandated for the sabbath.

 

[djconklin]

So is the word “sabbaton” really the word for “week, or Sabbath?”

Both.

A single day cannot be the same thing as a week.

The word for a single day, several different days and for a week are all the same.
===
for tall73: Which verse and which chapter use the word "miqra"?

 

[BobRyan]

Since this point keeps coming back as if we have not covered it --

Bob said -
The 7th-day Sabbath in Lev 23 is said to be a Sabbath of "holy convocation" but is not called a feast in Lev 23 and in fact is not a feast.

The Day of Atonement in Lev 23 is said to be a "Sabbath of holy convocation" but is not said to be a "feast" in Lev 23.

The Jubilie rest every 7th year is a Sabbath that is also not a "feast" as John Gill points out.

The translators of NASB and Young's Literal Translation appear to be correct in Lev 23:2, 4 with the term "appointed times" (translit - Miqra') and then in vs 6 "FEAST of Unleavened Bread" (translit - Chag) for that which is actually a feast day.

Originally Posted by tall73

There are both Hebrew and Greek terms to look at here.

First of all please note that Miqra (Hebrew) and chag(Hebrew) are both types of moed (Hebrew) at the beginning of the chapter. And moed (Hebrew) is rendered εορται (Greek) in Leviticus 23, which is the listing of all the εορται of the Lord .
​

Here we have the glaringly obvious point that the DISTINCTION available to us when translating directly from HEBREW -- is being LOST if we first translate from Hebrew to GREEK and THEN to english.

Hence Tall's preference for the less-precise indirect route that loses the information of the Hebrew text in this case.

Seems hard to MISS.

Tall
All of the appointed times are called moed(Hebrew)/εορται(Greek) in verse 4:

Lev 23:4 "These are the appointed feasts (εορτα&#953(moed) of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.


Moed is translated εορται in verse 4 in the Greek. All of the moed, the appointed times for Israel, are εορται.

Lev 23:4 Αὗται αἱ ἑορταὶ τῷ κυρίῳ, κληταὶ ἅγιαι, ἃς καλέσετε αὐτὰς ἐν τοῖς καιροῖς αὐτῶν.

All of the appointed times after verse 4 in the whole chapter are called εορται which is the word we see in Colossians.

Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,

Point made about the loss of information - again!

Tell
Therefore the Day of Atonement is one of the εορται of the Lord. They are all the appointed times of the Lord.

Actually the "thefore" in this case should be "therefore I choose to ignore the differentiation available in Hebrew even though this was the language used by Moses. Instead I choose the greek because by only looking at a greek rendering of Lev 23 key information is lost and so my argument will hold up".

Curiously -- all Bible translators are not going that route as we see in the case of the NASB, the CEV, Holman's, Youngs etc.

Bob said

1. You are mixing the LXX with the Hebrew. I have no problem at all admitting that the Hebrew in this instance contains a greater range of meaning. And thus the NASB, Youngs, Holman and CEV translators (from Hebrew) are ALL correct in rendering the whole set "Appointed times" while differentiating vs 6 "Feast" or "Festival" of unleavened bread.

NASB

2"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these:
3'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.
4'These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
5'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover. 6'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
​

​

2. Mow'ed vs 4 - does not argue that they can only be feasts - so again the NASB is correct in selecting consisently differentiating Mow'ed "Appointed Times" -- vs Chaq (Feasts) in the chapter.

Mow'ed





appointed place, appointed time, meeting

1. appointed time
   1. appointed time (general)
   2. sacred season, set feast, appointed season
2. appointed meeting
3. appointed place
4. appointed sign or signal
5. tent of meeting

This is particularly signifcant when you notice the way the Hebrew writers are also consistent in switching to much more restricted Chaq - when Feast is what is actually happening.

Chaq



festival, feast, festival-gathering, pilgrim-feast

1. feast
2. festival sacrifice

3. If your position requires that you take on these Bible translators and recommend the LXX over Hebrew - so be it. I am not comfortable going that route but I can understand why you may feel you have to take on that task.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We can keep covering that ground about how the double-translation of Heb -to-Greek and then -to- English is losing information and the fact that well known Bible translations do not make that mistake if you like... I just thought that the point was already instructive the first time around.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[djconklin]

First of all please note that Miqra (Hebrew) and chag(Hebrew) are both types of moed (Hebrew) at the beginning of the chapter.

In Lev. 23 "miqra" is the word for "convocation." It is not a type of "mow'ed."
---

NASB

2"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times [mow'ed] which you shall proclaim as holy convocations [miqra]--My appointed times [mow'ed] are these:
3'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation [miqra]. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.
4'These are the appointed times [mow'ed] of the LORD, holy convocations [miqra] which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
5'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.
6'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast [chag] of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.

Note how the NASB differentiates between [chaq] "feast" and [mow'ed] "appointed times."

 

[tall73]

We can keep covering that ground about how the double-translation of Heb -to-Greek and then -to- English is losing information and the fact that well known Bible translations do not make that mistake if you like... I just thought that the point was already instructive the first time around.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

The New Testament book of Colossians was not written in Hebrew. It was written in Greek. We are looking at Paul's use of a Greek term. Therefore we have no CHOICE but to look at the Greek. He did not write to them in Hebrew. If he did then we could apply terms from the Hebrew scriptures. But as it is, since he wrote in Greek, we are seeing how the Greek text at that time used the terms.

The Greek word used is also used to describe all the appointed times.

 

[tall73]

for tall73: Which verse and which chapter use the word "miqra"?

For one it is used of the Day of Atonement:

Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.


Nor have I ever denied this.

Now which items are described as εορται in Lev. 23? ALL OF THEM in the whole rest of the chapter, which are then listed, including the Day of Atonement.

And as I spelled out in looking at Ezekiel 45 and Numbers 28 and 29 the sabbath was one of the things that the prince offered the sacrifice for, it was included in that phrase in Ezekiel 45 which you admit is parallel.

 

[tall73]

Since this point keeps coming back as if we have not covered it --

The point keeps coming up because you have not grasped it. Col. is not written in Hebrew. It uses a Greek term. Therefore we have to look at how the Greek version handles the terms.

​

Here we have the glaringly obvious point that the DISTINCTION available to us when translating directly from HEBREW -- is being LOST if we first translate from Hebrew to GREEK and THEN to english.

​

Paul wrote in Greek, and we are looking at what Paul meant.

Hence Tall's preference for the less-precise indirect route that loses the information of the Hebrew text in this case.

Seems hard to MISS.

Hence Tall's preference for looking at the language Paul actually wrote in instead of pretending Paul wrote in Hebrew or English to the Colossians.

Point made about the loss of information - again!

Point missed again.


​

Actually the "thefore" in this case should be "therefore I choose to ignore the differentiation available in Hebrew even though this was the language used by Moses. Instead I choose the greek because by only looking at a greek rendering of Lev 23 key information is lost and so my argument will hold up".

I am not looking in Greek just so my argument holds up. I am looking in the Greek because that was the language of the verse we are studying in this thread. Can you really not see that?

Curiously -- all Bible translators are not going that route as we see in the case of the NASB, the CEV, Holman's, Youngs etc.

The subject of this thread is not the translation of Lev. 23 itself, but the USE of the OT material by Paul in Greek, in which case it is necessary to consult the Greek text in use at that time.

Paul did not write Col. in Hebrew. Since the letter was written in Greek you must deal with what is there.

The term, εορται, a Greek term, was a term used for all of the appointed times after verse 4 in Lev. 23.

And Col. 2:16 is parallel to Ezekiel 45 which is a summary of the material in Numbers 28-29 where the weekly sabbath was clearly included.

So if you wish to look at the Hebrew reading of the term in Colossians then you will have to prove that Colossians was written to a gentile church in Hebrew, and then come up with that Hebrew text. But I don't find that likely.

 

[tall73]

In Lev. 23 "miqra" is the word for "convocation." It is not a type of "mow'ed."
---
Note how the NASB differentiates between [chaq] "feast" and [mow'ed] "appointed times."[/color]

Incorrect. They are indeed all called mow'ed in verse 4:

Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

He then goes on to list all of the various feasts and holy convocations, which are all part of the appointed times.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin for tall73: Which verse and which chapter use the word "miqra"?

For one it is used of the Day of Atonement:

Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

The word "miqra," as I noted carefully previously, is used to translate the word "convocation." It is NOT used for the word "feast." It is irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

Originally Posted by djconklin

In Lev. 23 "miqra" is the word for "convocation." It is not a type of "mow'ed."
---
Note how the NASB differentiates between [chaq] "feast" and [mow'ed] "appointed times."[/color]​

​

Incorrect. They are indeed all called mow'ed in verse 4:

Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

As I stated previously, the NASB shows the difference between "feasts" and "appointed times":

NASB These are the appointed times [mow'ed] of the LORD, holy convocations [miqra] which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.

The NASB and I are correct.

"chag" is the more techinical term for "feast" in the OT Hebrew. The LXX uses "heorte" for both "chag" and mow'ed."

Note also:

2 Chronicles 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts [mow'ed], three times in the year, even in the feast [chag] of unleavened bread, and in the feast [chag] of weeks, and in the feast [chag] of tabernacles.

Deuteronomy 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast [chag] of unleavened bread, and in the feast [chag] of weeks, and in the feast [chag] of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:

Note that the Hebrew is consistent. The terms are not interchangeable, willy-nilly.

Hopefully, sometime next year my article on this subject will be published in a scholarly, refereed journal.

 

[tall73]

As I stated previously, the NASB shows the difference between "feasts" and "appointed times":

NASB These are the appointed times [mow'ed] of the LORD, holy convocations [miqra] which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.

The NASB and I are correct.

All the things that follow are mow'ed. Therefore you are in fact not correct.

"chag" is the more techinical term for "feast" in the OT Hebrew. The LXX uses "heorte" for both "chag" and mow'ed."

EXACTLY. The LXX uses heorte for BOTH. And in Lev. 23 it referred in verse 4 to all of the services.
Hence you admit that all of the things after verse 4, called Mow'ed, are also called heorte, just as in Col.

Note also:

2 Chronicles 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts [mow'ed], three times in the year, even in the feast [chag] of unleavened bread, and in the feast [chag] of weeks, and in the feast [chag] of tabernacles.

Deuteronomy 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast [chag] of unleavened bread, and in the feast [chag] of weeks, and in the feast [chag] of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:

No one has said that chag is used of the day of atonement. But the word Mow'ed is used of the day of atonement and is translated heorte. It is really not hard to grasp. And we already showed the parallel with Ezek. and Numbers.

So your distinction on Hebrew is pointless when Col. is in Greek and Greek uses the one word for both.

You had said before that heorte was not ever used of the day of atonement. But oldsage showed you wrong by pointing to Lev. I am sorry that you did all that research and never apparently did a wordsearch on all the uses of heorte, but the theory has been shown wrong.

Note that the Hebrew is consistent. The terms are not interchangeable, willy-nilly.

Note that Paul wrote in Greek, not Hebrew, and the term he used was applied to the day of atonement also as it was one of the heorte.