Focused discussion--Are the Sabbaths of Col 2 weekly or yearly?

[BobRyan]

There is no question that ALL the annual days -- are "appointed times" in Lev 23:2 and 4 whether they be FEASTS (as is pointed out in Lev 23:6 or a Sabbath day of holy convocation -- like Day of Atonement which is not called a FEAST).

This distinction between Feasts and Sabbaths - yet all grouped as "appointed times" is instructive when looking at Col 2 where FEASTS are separated out from Sabbaths.




2"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times [mow'ed] which you shall proclaim as holy convocations [miqra]--My appointed times [mow'ed] are these:
3'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation [miqra]. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.
4'These are the appointed times [mow'ed] of the LORD, holy convocations [miqra] which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
5'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.
6'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast [chag] of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.

 

[tall73]

There is no question that ALL the annual days -- are "appointed times" in Lev 23:2 and 4 whether they be FEASTS (as is pointed out in Lev 23:6 or a Sabbath day of holy convocation -- like Day of Atonement which is not called a FEAST).

This distinction between Feasts and Sabbaths - yet all grouped as "appointed times" is instructive when looking at Col 2 where FEASTS are separated out from Sabbaths.




2"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times [mow'ed] which you shall proclaim as holy convocations [miqra]--My appointed times [mow'ed] are these:
3'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation [miqra]. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.
4'These are the appointed times [mow'ed] of the LORD, holy convocations [miqra] which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
5'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.
6'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast [chag] of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.

And it mentions all in Col 2, sabbaths and appointed times and new moons.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
As I stated previously, the NASB shows the difference between "feasts" and "appointed times":

NASB These are the appointed times [mow'ed] of the LORD, holy convocations [miqra] which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.

The NASB and I are correct.

All the things that follow are mow'ed. Therefore you are in fact not correct.

No one has ever claimed that the ceremonial sabbaths of Lev. 23 are NOT "appointed times" [mow'ed]. But, they are not all "feasts" [chag]. Therefore, in fact I am correct, and you are wrong.

"chag" is the more techinical term for "feast" in the OT Hebrew. The LXX uses "heorte" for both "chag" and mow'ed."

EXACTLY. The LXX uses heorte for BOTH. And in Lev. 23 it referred in verse 4 to all of the services.
Hence you admit that all of the things after verse 4, called Mow'ed, are also called heorte,

None of that is disputed.

just as in Col.

You aren't paying attention to the fact that neither the Day of Atonement nor the blowing of trumpets are called "chag" which is the more technical term for "feast." Combined with the next couple of verses this tells us that these were bit called "feasts." Hence when you see the list of "feasts, new moon and sabbaths" the latter is a reference to these two days.

So your distinction on Hebrew is pointless when Col. is in Greek and Greek uses the one word for both.

The distinction is important because it shows what was considered to be a "feast" vs. "appointed time" in Hebrew thinking.

You had said before that heorte was not ever used of the day of atonement.

Actually, I never said that.

But oldsage showed you wrong by pointing to Lev. I am sorry that you did all that research and never apparently did a wordsearch on all the uses of heorte, but the theory has been shown wrong.

1) I spent three years studying this subject and consulted experts in the field.
2) I used BibleWorks 7.0 to find all of the uses of the words in question.
3) If you actually search for the word "feast*" you will get 163 hits, covering 145 verses in 4 different forms in .03 seconds.
4) If oldsage did what you said he did, then I didn't see it. I thought I had responded to all posts that responded to what I said.

 

[Joe67]

I am asking that we consider one very specific topic in this thread--which sabbaths are being discussed in Col. 2:16?
In the course of looking at that aspect there may be some interpretive work of the passage, context, etc., and that is fine. But please keep the topic on track. The main goal is to see what kind of Sabbath is indicated.

Would non-academic observations be acceptable. Big rivers are made up of many small side tributaries. I will watch for your answer.

Joe

 

[tall73]

Would non-academic observations be acceptable. Big rivers are made up of many small side tributaries. I will watch for your answer.

Joe

By all means, please contribute.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Since this point keeps coming back as if we have not covered it --
​

Tall
The point keeps coming up because you have not grasped it. Col. is not written in Hebrew. It uses a Greek term. Therefore we have to look at how the Greek version handles the terms.

Well I agree that the NASB, CEV, Holman and Young translators are dealing with Greek in Col 2 and in Hebrews when dealing with Lev 23. So I am not convinced this is the problem.

I also agree that the Greek term is glossing over the differences we find between the Hebrew Mo'ed and Chaq for example - thus some information is lost if one is trying to compare a greek form of Lev 23 to a Hebrew form.

It also seems clear that your insistance on weekly Sabbaths in Col 2 relies on our not noticing the information that is lost in Lev 23 when only using Greek lenses to view the text.

The reason for noting that we have "apointed times" that are comprised of BOTH "Feast" Chaq and annual Sabbaths of Holy Convocation in Lev 23 is that this is the context Paul and ALL NT saints have in Col 2 for what he calls "scripture".

Thus it is not unreasonable to accept the arguments of Adam Clarke and Jamieson, Fausset, Brown etc when they argue that the Lev 23 Feasts are annual feasts in Col 2 and the Shadow Sabbaths of Col 2 are the annual shadow Sabbaths of Lev 23.

in Christ,

Bob



​

 

[BobRyan]

Bob
Here we have the glaringly obvious point that the DISTINCTION available to us when translating directly from HEBREW -- is being LOST if we first translate from Hebrew to GREEK and THEN to english.

Tall
Paul wrote in Greek, and we are looking at what Paul meant.

Paul read (and even spoke at times) in Hebrew and considered the Hebrew text to BE "scripture". It is not surprising then that he chooses a to use TWO greek words in Col 2 to cover the TWO Hebrew words of Lev 23 that address "Feasts" (Chag) vs the annual Sabbaths of holy convocation such as Day of Atonement.

I don't think this is as hard a point for the reader to get as you have assumed.

in Christ,

Bob
​

 

[bugkiller]

Hi Everyone again,

Most interesting that week and a day are the same thing. What a concept! So what do the scriptures say?

“toward the first day of the week” Matt 28:1
“morning the first day of the week” Mk 16:2
“early the first day of the week” Mk 16:9
“I fast twice in the week, I give” Lk 18:12
“Now upon the first day of the week” Lk 24:1
“The first day of the week cometh” Jn 20:1
“And upon the first day of the week” Acts 20:7
“Upon the first day of the week let” I Cor 16:2

Excluding Lk 18:12 (uses “sabbatou&#8221 which of these statements refer to the week?

Mk 16:9, Lk 18:12 and I Cor 16:2 all use the word “sabbatou”

Matt 28:1, Mk 16:2, Lk 24:1, Jn 20:1 and Acts 20:7 all use the phrase “mia ton sabbaton”

Outside of Lk 18:12 all of the references are speaking of a specific day not week.
I am not able to find a scripture that translates “sabbaton” as week. Could some one help me with that, please?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Opps!

Matt 28:1 uses "Opse de sabbaton." Sorry for the error.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Bob speaking of informatin in Lev 23 when translated from Hebrew ---

Hence Tall's preference for the less-precise indirect route that loses the information of the Hebrew text in this case.


Seems hard to MISS.

Tall said -

Hence Tall's preference for looking at the language Paul actually wrote in instead of pretending Paul wrote in Hebrew or English to the Colossians.

Actually we agree that Colossians is Greek.

The only point of difference is whether the context for Paul was "Hebrew" for Lev 23 or whether he was limited to Greek for Lev 23.

Then if Col 2 IS a formula similar to the OT common formula for referring to both Feasts and annual Sabbaths -- as we see in Lev 23 between Feasts and Sabbaths of "Holy Convocation" -- the comparison of Col 2 to Lev 23 becomes "instructive" but to do it as Paul would do it -- you need to read Lev 23 with all the meaning HE would have found reading it in Hebrew.

This is what Adam Clarke and Jamieson, Fausset and Brown apparently did as well when rendering a commentary for Col 2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

Allow one more please. Matt 28:1 also uses "eis miansabbaton"

trying hard

bugkiller

 

[djconklin]

And it mentions all in Col 2, sabbaths and appointed times and new moons.

Actually, the text says "feasts, new moons and sabbaths" because not all "mow'ed" are feasts.
===

Most interesting that week and a day are the same thing.

No, it that the same Greek word can be translated two different ways. Like we use the word day to refer to the (1) light portion of a 24 hour (2) day and also for a (3) period of time, as in "in that day and age."

Mk 16:9, Lk 18:12 and I Cor 16:2 all use the word “sabbatou”

The "ou" ending indicates that you translate the word as "of the ...". For example, the word for man is "anthropon." But, if you wanted to talk about the "___ of the man" you'd say "____ anthropou." This would be the genitive form of the word.

Outside of Lk 18:12 all of the references are speaking of a specific day not week.

The _word_ "sabbaton" is being _translated_ as "week;" it doesn't mean "week." So, in 1 Cor. 16:2 the first three words of the texts are "kata mian sabbatou" or in English: "Upon the first day of the week."

 

[djconklin]

Matt 28:1 uses "Opse de sabbaton."

Allow one more please. Matt 28:1 also uses "eis mian sabbaton"

{I fixed the dropped space} Correct. Note that the same word "sabbaton" is used twice. Once it is translated as "Sabbath" and in the second it is translated as "week." Same word, two diffrent legitmate translations.

trying hard

I understand how hard it can be to use a foriegn language in which has had no training--you should have seen the errors I had in the English in that sentence, oops, found one in that one too!

 

[bugkiller]

djconklin

I certianly seem to be having a difficlut time of it for sure.

I read "end of the sabbath" and "first day of the week." So my questions is are we talking about a specific day, days (more than one) or week? I certianly understand both to mean a day with or with reguard to the phrase used.

bugkiller

 

[tall73]

Well I agree that the NASB, CEV, Holman and Young translators are dealing with Greek in Col 2 and in Hebrews when dealing with Lev 23. So I am not convinced this is the problem.

I also agree that the Greek term is glossing over the differences we find between the Hebrew Mo'ed and Chaq for example - thus some information is lost if one is trying to compare a greek form of Lev 23 to a Hebrew form.

It also seems clear that your insistance on weekly Sabbaths in Col 2 relies on our not noticing the information that is lost in Lev 23 when only using Greek lenses to view the text.​

They are not my lenses, they are Paul's. He is speaking Greek. You can only go with what the Greek term says. And the Greek term covers both uses. But the parallel statement of Ezekiel 45 when compared with Numbers 28 and 29 shows that it included the weekly.

The reason for noting that we have "apointed times" that are comprised of BOTH "Feast" Chaq and annual Sabbaths of Holy Convocation in Lev 23 is that this is the context Paul and ALL NT saints have in Col 2 for what he calls "scripture".

And it still does not solve your problem when he uses a text that is parallel to another text which is referencing the weekly. Nor does it solve the problem that his Greek term means both, not just the one you want.

Thus it is not unreasonable to accept the arguments of Adam Clarke and Jamieson, Fausset, Brown etc when they argue that the Lev 23 Feasts are annual feasts in Col 2 and the Shadow Sabbaths of Col 2 are the annual shadow Sabbaths of Lev 23.

in Christ,

Bob

It is only reasonable if you disregard the parallel texts. But then it is not unreasonable to agree with Bacchiocchi and others who have studied the issue at incredible length and disagree with you and the others.





​

 

[tall73]

Paul read (and even spoke at times) in Hebrew and considered the Hebrew text to BE "scripture". It is not surprising then that he chooses a to use TWO greek words in Col 2 to cover the TWO Hebrew words of Lev 23 that address "Feasts" (Chag) vs the annual Sabbaths of holy convocation such as Day of Atonement.

I don't think this is as hard a point for the reader to get as you have assumed.

in Christ,

Bob
​

Actually it is not hard to get that he summed up the various sacred times, including the weekly Sabbath, just as the parallel texts indicates. Now Paul knew Hebrew. Granted. But he wrote this in Greek. You simply can't get back to the precision of two terms when he only used one.

 

[tall73]

djconklin

I certianly seem to be having a difficlut time of it for sure.

I read "end of the sabbath" and "first day of the week." So my questions is are we talking about a specific day, days (more than one) or week? I certianly understand both to mean a day with or with reguard to the phrase used.

bugkiller

Try this one. It is a part of the sentence from Act 20:7

τη----μια-----τῶν----- σαββάτων
the---first--- of the----week


The first of the week. Or the first day of the week. Here sabbaton is translated as week. There is a particular day being referenced. But that day is the first OF the week.

 

[djconklin]

I read "end of the sabbath" and "first day of the week." So my questions is are we talking about a specific day, days (more than one) or week? I certianly understand both to mean a day with or with reguard to the phrase used.

Its just like tall73's post #97. The same word is being translated in two different ways. It isn't true that the word only means the seventh-day Sabbath, as we are commonly told.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week [sabbatwn, sabbaton], ... The weird part about this verse is "sabbatwn" is to be read as being in the genitive where we'd expect to see "sabbatou."
===

You simply can't get back to the precision of two terms when he only used one.

You can when you pay attention to how the words are used in the OT.

2 Chronicles 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts [heortais], three times in the year, even in the feast [heorte] of unleavened bread, and in the feast [heorte] of weeks, and in the feast [heorte] of tabernacles.

In general, and obviously over-stating a bit, if you only see the word "feasts" with no other descriptor like in the above then it refers to the three feasts mentioned in the above verse. Note that two ceremonial sabbaths (the Day of Atonement and the blowing of trumpets) that are also mentioned in Lev. 23 are not included in the above verse. Note also that the above verse also has the terms "sabbaths, new moons and feasts." The terms "sabbaths" refers to the Day of Atonement and the blowing of trumpets. So, now all three describe the ceremonial days of the religious year.

 

[tall73]

You had said before that heorte was not ever used of the day of atonement.

Actually, I never said that.

What you said was that it was not used in Lev. 23. But now you admit it is. And that would be an instance of it "ever" being linked.

For those who don't yet understand: there is no linkage, or use of, the word "heorte" with the Day of Atonement in Lev 23.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=32203735&postcount=21

 

[tall73]

Conklin, in looking at Hosea and at Ezekiel they do use chag. So I am reconsidering my position based on the parallels. I will think this over some more. These would be the closest parallels, not Lev. 23, which nonetheless uses heorte for all of the assemblies.

However the following texts use mowed rather than chag, though they are in different order.

1Ch 23:31 and whenever burnt offerings were offered to the LORD on Sabbaths, new moons, and feast days, according to the number required of them, regularly before the LORD.

2Ch 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, as ordained forever for Israel.

2Ch 31:3 The contribution of the king from his own possessions was for the burnt offerings: the burnt offerings of morning and evening, and the burnt offerings for the Sabbaths, the new moons, and the appointed feasts, as it is written in the Law of the LORD.

Neh 10:33 for the showbread, the regular grain offering, the regular burnt offering, the Sabbaths, the new moons, the appointed feasts, the holy things, and the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.