FLAT or ROUND Earth?

[Halbhh]

As our examples, if the Bible simply stated that stars were burning gas. Or if it stated that there were other Earth's in the heavens. Or anything like that, It would easily demonstrate that the biblical authors were scientifically advanced by thousands of years.

Yes! I often am pointing this out (dozens of times now) -- that:

Any (even just 1 alone) instance in scripture that could later in time become a powerful evidence/outright proof of God for instance like giving the actual age in scripture of the Earth in years (number of Earth orbits around the sun), or the ages of stars (even just to indicate they are thousands of thousands of thousands of years old) --

...would make the most central, key theme of the New Testament false.

Not just a passage or 2 in the New Testament would be wrongly worded -- no. Instead, with such scriptural scientific facts (or even just 1 alone) which could only be discovered scientifically later in time -- then the most key theme of the New Testament would be shown wrong.

Note: it's not only that a few passages would be incompatible with such proof.

Not just Hebrews 11 for instance.
Hebrews 11, v1: "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith and Assurance

Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

biblehub.com

But with something like that (such as the actual age of Earth), then dozens of passages throughout the New Testament, and the most primary theme of all -- that God wants 'faith' from us , that we should believe/come to faith before seeing God or conclusive evidence/proof -- would all be clearly not compatible.


24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
==========

So, with any such dramatic scientific information in the bible that we could and would only learn later in time would just suddenly make the New Testament...just wrong, really, about what God wants of us, how we are Redeemed (through faith, as in most of the epistles, and in the 4 gospels)

It would preclude/obviate faith itself.

 

[Halbhh]

we read about windows and doors in the sky and pillars holding up the Earth in an ocean.

Those are excellent metaphors in the context of the passages:

"pillars holding up the Earth" --

“The Lord kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich;
he brings low and he exalts.
8 He raises up the poor from the dust;
he lifts the needy from the ash heap
to make them sit with princes
and inherit a seat of honor.
For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's,
and on them he has set the world."


As you see in the wording in verse 8, the metaphors that the poor are helped.

Reading it literally would be almost nonsensical really (don't you agree?) -- for the poor to be levitated up into the air, to be suspended, dangling in the air.

Of course, it's not only those on literal ash heaps or lying in literal dusty streets (not only those) who are being helped. etc.

And the poor that get helped aren't then all literally going to sit at a prince's table (though a few might), but it's a good metaphor for the general meaning: they are lifted from being despised into a place of dignity.

Pillars:

"the pillars of the earth are the Lord's,
and on them he has set the world."

The Earth is a safe home against the level/magnitude of Earthquakes that would be so overwhelming they would entire extinguish all humanity in a vast region such as for example a magnitude 14 or 15 earthquake, far beyond what actually happens (we get up to about magnitude 9, about 100,000 times less strong than a magnitude 14)

Metaphorically: the ground is on secure 'pillars' -- it will generally be reliable, during most human lifetimes in most places (very few of us will end up dying of earthquake, and nations can survive them, etc.)

As you will agree I expect, the text is full of metaphors: (or tell me if you don't see the metaphors!)

verse 2: “There is none holy like the Lord:
for there is none besides you;
there is no rock like our God."

etc.

(of course, God is not literally a 'rock' but He's like a rock: firm)

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Samuel 2 - English Standard Version

Hannah's Prayer - And Hannah prayed and said, “My heart exults in the LORD; my horn is exalted in the LORD. My mouth derides my enemies, because I rejoice in your salvation. “There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God. Talk no more so very...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Hope of Glory]

Does anyone know, is it MOSTLY Christians who have fallen for the flat Earth fraud???

I don't know of anyone except for Christians who have fallen for this, and they are all KJV onlyists and they take what they consider to be a "literal" reading and deny the underlying texts and deny their own eyes. I have a friend who is a retired astronaut and a group of these people openly called him a liar for saying he had been to space.

However, I was reading a poll, and something like 70% of 6th graders and fully 30% of adults do not realize that Earth is a sphere. That's technically not the same thing as believing in a flat earth, but it's very similar.

 

[coffee4u]

I don't know of anyone except for Christians who have fallen for this, and they are all KJV onlyists and they take what they consider to be a "literal" reading and deny the underlying texts and deny their own eyes. I have a friend who is a retired astronaut and a group of these people openly called him a liar for saying he had been to space.

However, I was reading a poll, and something like 70% of 6th graders and fully 30% of adults do not realize that Earth is a sphere. That's technically not the same thing as believing in a flat earth, but it's very similar.

There are many of us who follow sola scriptura and a literal reading of those parts that are not parable, poetry or prophesy, and do not believe in flat earth. I just did an entire post using the direct Hebrew that the text does not say flat.
The word is khûg (חוּג) means vault. It says that no matter which version you are reading.

So no I reject the idea that a 'litralist' or 'KJV onlyists' reading of the scriptures leads to a belief in flat earth. As a litralist, after being given a long list of verses by a flat earther that I went over seriously, I can easily say that none of the verses given taught that the earth was flat.
Many of the verses were poetry and nobody who reads scripture 'literally' believes that trees have hands to clap with.
No, the people who believe in flat earth already believe it is flat and then they are having that belief bolstered by these verses, some of which I could see, such as God taking a 'measuring rod' and some that made no sense at all, such as 'four corners' of the world. How does four corners teach a belief in a flat round disk shaped earth when it brings to mind something cubed?

"70% of 6th graders and fully 30% of adults do not realize that Earth is a sphere."
Given the state of education I would say what actually happened is these adults and kids don't know what the word "sphere" means. If asked "is the world a big round ball?" I think the poll would have come back with higher numbers.

 

[Job 33:6]

Those are excellent metaphors in the context of the passages:

"pillars holding up the Earth" --

“The Lord kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich;
he brings low and he exalts.
8 He raises up the poor from the dust;
he lifts the needy from the ash heap
to make them sit with princes
and inherit a seat of honor.
For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's,
and on them he has set the world."


As you see in the wording in verse 8, the metaphors that the poor are helped.

Reading it literally would be almost nonsensical really (don't you agree?) -- for the poor to be levitated up into the air, to be suspended, dangling in the air.

Of course, it's not only those on literal ash heaps or lying in literal dusty streets (not only those) who are being helped. etc.

And the poor that get helped aren't then all literally going to sit at a prince's table (though a few might), but it's a good metaphor for the general meaning: they are lifted from being despised into a place of dignity.

Pillars:

"the pillars of the earth are the Lord's,
and on them he has set the world."

The Earth is a safe home against the level/magnitude of Earthquakes that would be so overwhelming they would entire extinguish all humanity in a vast region such as for example a magnitude 14 or 15 earthquake, far beyond what actually happens (we get up to about magnitude 9, about 100,000 times less strong than a magnitude 14)

Metaphorically: the ground is on secure 'pillars' -- it will generally be reliable, during most human lifetimes in most places (very few of us will end up dying of earthquake, and nations can survive them, etc.)

As you will agree I expect, the text is full of metaphors: (or tell me if you don't see the metaphors!)

verse 2: “There is none holy like the Lord:
for there is none besides you;
there is no rock like our God."

etc.

(of course, God is not literally a 'rock' but He's like a rock: firm)

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Samuel 2 - English Standard Version

Hannah's Prayer - And Hannah prayed and said, “My heart exults in the LORD; my horn is exalted in the LORD. My mouth derides my enemies, because I rejoice in your salvation. “There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God. Talk no more so very...

www.biblegateway.com

Your response is easily negated by the understanding that people can speak poetically about things that are actually believed in. For example, the passage refers to sheol. Just because Sheol is mentioned in poetry doesn't mean that people didn't actually believe in Sheol, the underworld. The Lord makes poor and makes rich. Just because this is poetry, doesn't mean that there's no such thing as poor and rich people.

It is poetry, however more importantly, it's poetry about ancient cosmology.

No one would look at something like the sarcophagus of wereshnefer or the tablet of shamash and call it metaphorical. These ideas were believed in literally, then spoken about in poetry.

Just as I can write a poem about a horse without the horse needing to be metaphorical. The horse is lifted from the ashes and has hooves of cast iron.

That is poetry, but that doesn't mean that horses aren't real or that I don't believe in them.

 

[BeyondET]

If anyone gots the cash virgin galactic will take you there to see the earth from above.

 

[Lost4words]

Even if a flat earther went up to space and saw that the earth was indeed round they would argue that the space craft had fish eye windows to make the earth look that way!!!

 

[Halbhh]

It is poetry, however more importantly, it's poetry about ancient cosmology.

This is the first sentence where I can see an exception to interpose here, to help fill out a more full understanding. (the previous sentences and all the rest are simply things we both agree on already, where I saw you were stating similar (exactly even) the same things I've stated often, and for which I'd only need simply click the 'agree' button...).

As I feel you will agree, we can hear the subjects (topics/intent/meaning) of 1rst Samuel 2 if we try, but only from full reading of course. (I feel you will already agree we only know what it says well if we read fully the passage as a whole)

Let's (just) read that passage! Just listen to it.
(it's the best, most enjoyable thing really, and that's why I smile thinking to do it)

1 Then Hannah prayed and said:

“My heart rejoices in the Lord;
in the Lord my horn[a] is lifted high.
My mouth boasts over my enemies,
for I delight in your deliverance.
2 “There is no one holy like the Lord;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.
3 “Do not keep talking so proudly
or let your mouth speak such arrogance,
for the Lord is a God who knows,
and by him deeds are weighed.
4 “The bows of the warriors are broken,
but those who stumbled are armed with strength.
5 Those who were full hire themselves out for food,
but those who were hungry are hungry no more.
She who was barren has borne seven children,
but she who has had many sons pines away.
6 “The Lord brings death and makes alive;
he brings down to the grave and raises up.
7 The Lord sends poverty and wealth;
he humbles and he exalts.
8 He raises the poor from the dust
and lifts the needy from the ash heap;
he seats them with princes
and has them inherit a throne of honor.
“For the foundations of the earth are the Lord’s;
on them he has set the world.
9 He will guard the feet of his faithful servants,
but the wicked will be silenced in the place of darkness.
“It is not by strength that one prevails;
10 those who oppose the Lord will be broken.
The Most High will thunder from heaven;
the Lord will judge the ends of the earth.
“He will give strength to his king
and exalt the horn of his anointed.”

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Samuel 2 - New International Version

Hannah’s Prayer - Then Hannah prayed and said: “My heart rejoices in the LORD; in the LORD my horn is lifted high. My mouth boasts over my enemies, for I delight in your deliverance. “There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God. “Do not keep...

www.biblegateway.com

==================

What I see/hear (which I feel you will also, but you can add anything else to these clearly intended meanings you feel was the intended thing to be communicated if I miss even one thing meant to be communicated)

Hannah rejoices in the Lord.
Who gives deliverance from enemies, victory against dangers.
No One is more reliable than our God!

Don't boast of your own deeds, people.
For God is the One Who really knows what are the true/real deeds (no matter what anyone claims...)!

Powerful attackers have their weapons broken...
But those who were at first losing the battle are strengthened (by the Lord)!

Those that had been fed on the labors of the poor must now themselves seek work for food.
But the poor who went hungry are now fed!

The barren woman bears children.
But the woman that had many children at the expense of others now pines.

The Lord kills many (literally!), but brings others back to life from what seemed sure death.

The Lord punishes among his people with new poverty many, but sends blessings on others.
He humbles some, and exalts others.

He lifts the poor from destitution and distress, and brings them dignity and honor.

For even all the Earth, from the most basic foundation/essence, is the Lord's!
and He has made it what it is, and it is secure/sound/reliable/God's own.
(Even the very foundation of the Earth is created by the Lord -- thus, all that happens is allowed by Him or done by Him, and nothing is outside of His accounting/intents, and we need have no fear of anything., because even everything of the Earth is from Lord, His work! This is His world, He made for us.)

He will guard his servants!
But the wicked He will subdue!

It is not by our own strength of arm or mind we prevail in life,
and those who oppose God will be broken (in time)...

God will bring Judgment onto all mankind,
He will give strength to those He has anointed for His purposes.

==========

What a testimony. It's like many of the Psalms we notice.

i.e. -- "The earth is the Lord's and everything in it, the world and all who live in it." Psalm 24:1

 

[Michael Snow]

I guess you have no problem with Augustine because you believe as he does. That faith requires works to be real faith, that is back loading faith with works. By what he wrote he did not believe in faith alone.

So for Augustine verses like John 3:16 can not give any person eternal life, by simply believing in Jesus. A life of obedience of works is also required according to Augustine.

Completely off topic. But that is what you expect from the cult of flat earthers.

 

[Job 33:6]

 

[d taylor]

Completely off topic. But that is what you expect from the cult of flat earthers.

I do believe you were the one who brought Augustine into the discussion.

 

[d taylor]

-​

Well the good thing for most people who align with the beliefs (with some) of The Bible. Is that, if you have believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life and become a born again child of God. You will avoid having to hear it from the small minority of born again flat earth creation believers in heaven or the new earth. How wrong your creation beliefs were, when you disbelieved God's creation description's given in The Bible. In favor of the lies of pagan, atheistic science. Because we will no longer have the sin nature and will no longer need to gloat over this creation debate.

 

[Lost4words]

-​

Well the good thing for most people who align with the beliefs (with some) of The Bible. Is that, if you have believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life and become a born again child of God. You will avoid having to hear it from the small minority of born again flat earth creation believers in heaven or the new earth. How wrong your creation beliefs were, when you disbelieved God's creation description's given in The Bible. In favor of the lies of pagan, atheistic science. Because we will no longer have the sin nature and will no longer need to gloat over this creation debate.

Said by yet another who interprets God's words to suit their very own belief system.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

-​

Never said it did, but if it did people still would not believe it. I mean how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life can not get any plainer than John 6:47. But people do not believe that simple and to the point verse.

What is your point? Because people do not believe everything they don't believe anything worth while?
"If it did"? So now you believe in "if"s?

 

[d taylor]

What is your point? Because people do not believe everything they don't believe anything worth while?
"If it did"? So now you believe in "if"s?

That it does not matter if God was to plainly state He created a flat stationary earth in The Bible. People are going to believe who they trust. As proven in The Bible many times. Jesus came and proved by His miracles He did, that He was The promised Messiah from The Tanakh. But yet He was rejected, because the ruling government of Israel rejected Jesus and the people followed suit.

The two spies who believed God promise that the Hebrews can take the land God was giving them. They were rejected over the majority of spies who gave a bad report of the land and lied to the Hebrew people, but yet the Hebrew people sided with the lying spies and not the two who told the truth about Gods promise about the land.

Now God has given enough creation descriptions in The Bible for one who will believe God at His given word. That His creation as described in The Bible is not the same as what science and government is trying to pawn off onto people.

 

[DamianWarS]

The earth God created is not only flat but stationary. Earth in The Bible means land/ground and not a water covered space ball with land scattered around it. The creation God created is covered by a raqia (dome) that is separating waters from waters. Genesis plainly states that God placed the sun, moon and stars in the raqia. so these light are not millions of miles away. Plus they move over the earth giving light.

Sciences creation version is simply a big ole lie.

The Genesis creation account is foremost a salvation metaphor. this should be no surprise since scripture affirms this in 2 Cor 4:6 not to mention light and darkness are heavily used symbols in the bible. This is the central theme of the account and any competing message robs God of this glory. This is not agenda driven to discredit or proclaim 'x' position, be it flat or round earth, but I will defend the message of the account and it has nothing to do with how flat or round the earth is.

 

[Michael Snow]

I have a friend who is a retired astronaut and a group of these people openly called him a liar for saying he had been to space.

Yes, in practice they despise God's word about witnesses.

Buzz Aldrin made the news years ago when some guy waving a Bible came into his office saying "swear on this Bible that you have been to the moon." Buzz decked him. The judge told the guy he deserved it. Aldrin's pastor sent communion elements with him which he took upon landing on the moon. He was a deacon in his home church at that time.

Did you see my post re: At least 3 of the men who walked on the moon are Christians? On page 4 of this thread.

 

[Michael Snow]

View attachment 330093 Anyone seen any surveys showing the demographics of flat earthers? Numbers, Ages, countries, religion? I only run into such on Christian forums.

They reject the Bible's clear standard of two or three witnesses, and thus call brothers in Christ, liars.

At least 3 men who walked on the moon were/are brothers in Christ. Buzz Aldrin (Apollo 11) was a deacon in his church. His pastor sent Communion elements with him, not knowing whether he would return. Aldrin had his communion meal before leaving the LEM.
Jim Irwin (deceased, Apollo 15, with whom I flew on the 'Weightless Wonder" as they practiced setting up the lunar vehicle) had a ministry, High Flight, in which he presented his Christian Witness to world leaders and others.
Charlie Duke (Apollo 16, recently interviewed by Eric Metaxas on Socrates in the City ...on youtub) became a Christian after his return.
Of the other 9 men who walked on the moon and the 6 Command Module pilots, some of them may well have been Christians also. I also met Harrison Schmitt, Apollo 17, on the Vomit Comet.

Just to note: I took that photo....here as "attachment" above. That is Al Worden, Command Module Pilot of Apollo 15, practicing for the camera film retrieval after the LEM rejoined him. Camera mounted on Service Module that is discarded before Earth re-entry.

 

[d taylor]

Said by yet another who interprets God's words to suit their very own belief system.

Ok so by using only The Bible (as your reference for interpretation) interpret this account from The Bible.
Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon;
And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”
So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.

Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.

 

[d taylor]

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Perfect example of letting science interpret The Bible, which is absolutely the wrong way to interpret The Bible.

Is it true that the sun stood still? | GotQuestions.org