FLAT or ROUND Earth?

[Lost4words]

The Bible is not a science book

 

[Omniskeptical]

The Bible is not a science book

It isn't a cosmology book either. The amount of astronomy in it was slight.

 

[Job 33:6]

Bronze age, not the Iron age. And the "gold" is actually copper.

ok, so when reading Job 38:17, you wouldnt find anything abnormal about it being translated as the sky being hard like cast bronze. Or a metal cast bronze mirror of a sort. Which is how people made mirrors back then, out of cast bronze.

 

[Job 33:6]

Proverbs 8:28, when He made hard, or strengthened, hardened, sehaqim, the skies, above. And he strengthened or made strong, the fountains below.

The sky, hard and strengthened much like the earth.

This is similar to when Job describes heaven over tohu and earth over beliymah. Heaven and earth over their respective seas. The sky and earth both strengthened. Job 26:7. Zaphon, the meeting place of the divine council, sometimes translated as the north, or heavenly place.

The Bible actually makes way way way more sense when read through a pre-scientific perspective, than it does trying to do mental gynmnastics to insert modern 21st century science into the Bible.

People just have to learn how to trust in scripture despite it being an ancient text and therefore occasionally expressing ancient ideas.

 

[Halbhh]

Proverbs 8:28,

An extremely profound passage (which really stands out in Proverbs):

1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
...

22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 “Now then, my children, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not disregard it.
34 Blessed are those who listen to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For those who find me find life
and receive favor from the Lord.
36 But those who fail to find me harm themselves;
all who hate me love death.”

(or better, the full chapter: Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 8 - New International Version)

 

[Job 33:6]

An extremely profound passage (which really stands out in Proverbs):

1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
...

22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 “Now then, my children, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not disregard it.
34 Blessed are those who listen to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For those who find me find life
and receive favor from the Lord.
36 But those who fail to find me harm themselves;
all who hate me love death.”

(or better, the full chapter: Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 8 - New International Version)

Yea.

So check out the language in there. aside from verse 28. "horizon on the face of the deep"

Thats circle of the earth 101. He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep.
He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

Thats Job 26:10.

Well, what is the horizon or boundary between light and dark? Well, its the same horizon we see when we are at the beach and we watch the sun set, at the boundary between light and dark.

When he gave the sea its boundary. Well, what boundary?

Oh yea, the boundary established by the solid dome raqia when waters were separated from the waters, until the windows opened to release those waters in genesis 7:11, but then by the end of the flood, God re-established the boundary by closing those windows in 8:2.

theologically, it has incredible meaning. Contextually, its meaning is only clear through ANE context. There would be no boundary between light and dark if earth were not perceived as a circle, much like the babylonian map of the world. Water requires physical boundaries. Else it falls, as it did in the flood. The poetic nature of the passages that contrast heaven and earth, only make sense if heaven too is a solid place, or has solid qualities.

God walks on the circuit of heaven for example. Thick clouds veil him and he walks on the firmament. Job 22:24

And people can call it poetry all day. But this poetry, is a 1 to 1, flawless match with ancient cosmology.

 

[Halbhh]

Yea.

So check out the language in there. aside from verse 28. "horizon on the face of the deep"

Thats circle of the earth 101. He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep.
He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

Thats Job 26:10.

Well, what is the horizon or boundary between light and dark? Well, its the same horizon we see when we are at the beach and we watch the sun set, at the boundary between light and dark.

When he gave the sea its boundary. Well, what boundary?

Oh yea, the boundary established by the solid dome raqia when waters were separated from the waters, until the windows opened to release those waters in genesis 7:11, but then by the end of the flood, God re-established the boundary by closing those windows in 8:2.

theologically, it has incredible meaning. Contextually, its meaning is only clear through ANE context. There would be no boundary between light and dark if earth were not perceived as a circle, much like the babylonian map of the world. Water requires physical boundaries. Else it falls, as it did in the flood. The poetic nature of the passages that contrast heaven and earth, only make sense if heaven too is a solid place, or has solid qualities.

God walks on the circuit of heaven for example. Thick clouds veil him and he walks on the firmament. Job 22:24

And people can call it poetry all day. But this poetry, is a 1 to 1, flawless match with ancient cosmology.

People have invented cosmologies since time immemorial (as I expect you probably already know), and we should consider how that impinges...

But first a quick review of how that kind of thing goes with a very typical example I saw the other day:

John Philoponus (490–570) considered that the heavens were made of fire, not of aether, yet maintained that circular motion is one of the two natural motions of fire.[22] In a theological work, On the Creation of the World (De opificio mundi), he denied that the heavens are moved by either a soul or by angels, proposing that "it is not impossible that God, who created all these things, imparted a motive force to the Moon, the Sun, and other stars – just as the inclination to heavy and light bodies, and the movements due to the internal soul to all living beings – in order that the angels do not move them by force."[23][24][25] This is interpreted as an application of the concept of impetus to the motion of the celestial spheres.[26][27][28] In an earlier commentary on Aristotle's Physics, Philoponus compared the innate power or nature that accounts for the rotation of the heavens to the innate power or nature that accounts for the fall of rocks.[29] -- Dynamics of the celestial spheres - Wikipedia

When Galileo was put on trial for pointing out that the Earth moved around the sun (instead of the Sun moving around the Earth), what he was encountering was how people invent cosmologies (in that case that Earth is immobile), and then having their pet theory, invest their egos into that theory...and then insist that their theory is what the Bible says.

And for them, it is in a way -- they often literally cannot see anything else I think.

Because when a person reads with such a strong preconception, it alters their ability to perceive, and they fail to see some words or sentences, and only see what they expect.

 

[Lost4words]

Why do flat earth believers twist God's word to try and fit their fantastical beliefs?

The Bible is not about science! It does not spell out the inner workings of creation.

God spells out creation through human knowledge. Through faith and understanding.

The earth is a sphere! Science can prove this 100%. Fact.

The Bible is our way to God. It is not there to be interpreted wrongly, falsely. It is written for our salvation.

There is no flat earth! Flat earth is a lie dreamt up by the devil.

Look at the moon, the planets, the stars. They are ALL spherical. Fact!

We are on a spherical earth. Proven, time and again by real science. By real facts.

Wake up flat earthers and see the lies you have been fed.

 

[Job 33:6]

Why do flat earth believers twist God's word to try and fit their fantastical beliefs?

The Bible is not about science! It does not spell out the inner workings of creation.

God spells out creation through human knowledge. Through faith and understanding.

The earth is a sphere! Science can prove this 100%. Fact.

The Bible is our way to God. It is not there to be interpreted wrongly, falsely. It is written for our salvation.

There is no flat earth! Flat earth is a lie dreamt up by the devil.

Look at the moon, the planets, the stars. They are ALL spherical. Fact!

We are on a spherical earth. Proven, time and again by real science. By real facts.

Wake up flat earthers and see the lies you have been fed.

The topic isnt really about what is. It's about how people on history have perceived it. You and I both know that earth is a sphere because we have pictures of it from outer space, and measurements. Some of us have flown planes around it etc.

But in history, people didn't have these liberties, and people debated these things.

So the question is not what we know today. It's about what was thought or known in 1500BC. Roughly the time in which the Old Testament dates back to (if not more recently up to 500BC or so).

 

[Halbhh]

The topic isnt really about what is. It's about how people on history have perceived it. You and I both know that earth is a sphere because we have pictures of it from outer space, and measurements. Some of us have flown planes around it etc.

But in history, people didn't have these liberties, and people debated these things.

So the question is not what we know today. It's about what was thought or known in 1500BC. Roughly the time in which the Old Testament dates back to (if not more recently up to 500BC or so).

We read in Isaiah 55 that God's thoughts are far above our own....

So, it should be expected perhaps that if God is inspiring the words, then it's going to be more like this (I'll use 2 examples, from different times):

9 About noon...Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, ....

...

19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision ....

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10 - New International Version

Cornelius Calls for Peter - At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. One day at about three in the afternoon he had a...

www.biblegateway.com

=======

See how mysterious this vision is to Peter? He cannot yet understand it... He will not for a while even, days it seems.

But God wasn't worried (we can surmise) that Peter would not immediately understand, or that the words might be mysterious even for some time.... Until one day, perhaps even only years later, the full entire import would finally be more clear. Considering how Peter stumbled so badly as reported in Galatians 2, refusing to eat with gentile Christian believers who had not been physically circumcised, it seems Peter did not quickly understand the full import of this vision.

==========

Another example:

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

(it took us quite a while to realize (circa 1990s I think) that early Earth would have a constantly cloudy atmosphere with swirling mist in the air and so on, where nothing would be visible for a long while until finally after a long time passed (perhaps more than 1 billion years is one estimate) -- until the atmosphere finally cleared enough to allow a visual distinction between the surface of Earth and the sky above (which you cannot see in a heavy fog or mist) -- So that finally for the first time ever, a visual looking around could see a distinct ocean surface below and a 'sky' above...)

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

(The first emergence of dry land out of the ocean world Earth. We only first found in 2017 hard evidence that the early Earth was an ocean world,, before the first continents emerged.)

That was a big discovery, and I was truly truly surprised:

Earth started 4.4 billion years ago as a flat, barren water world, scientists say - UPI.com

Ancient rocks in Australia suggest early Earth was flat, barren and mostly under water.

www.upi.com

This has now been repeatedly concluded by several independent research groups.

 

[Lost4words]

The topic isnt really about what is. It's about how people on history have perceived it. You and I both know that earth is a sphere because we have pictures of it from outer space, and measurements. Some of us have flown planes around it etc.

But in history, people didn't have these liberties, and people debated these things.

So the question is not what we know today. It's about what was thought or known in 1500BC. Roughly the time in which the Old Testament dates back to (if not more recently up to 500BC or so).

They saw that the moon was a sphere. The sun was a sphere.....logic would have told them that the earth was a sphere.

Even that far back, people had common sense.

 

[Job 33:6]

We read in Isaiah 55 that God's thoughts are far above our own....

So, it should be expected perhaps that if God is inspiring the words, then it's going to be more like this (I'll use 2 examples, from different times):

9 About noon...Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, ....

...

19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision ....

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 10 - New International Version

Cornelius Calls for Peter - At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. One day at about three in the afternoon he had a...

www.biblegateway.com

=======

See how mysterious this vision is to Peter? He cannot yet understand it... He will not for a while even, days it seems.

But God wasn't worried (we can surmise) that Peter would not immediately understand, or that the words might be mysterious even for some time.... Until one day, perhaps even only years later, the full entire import would finally be more clear. Considering how Peter stumbled so badly as reported in Galatians 2, refusing to eat with gentile Christian believers who had not been physically circumcised, it seems Peter did not quickly understand the full import of this vision.

==========

Another example:

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

(it took us quite a while to realize (circa 1990s I think) that early Earth would have a constantly cloudy atmosphere with swirling mist in the air and so on, where nothing would be visible for a long while until finally after a long time passed (perhaps more than 1 billion years is one estimate) -- until the atmosphere finally cleared enough to allow a visual distinction between the surface of Earth and the sky above (which you cannot see in a heavy fog or mist) -- So that finally for the first time ever, a visual looking around could see a distinct ocean surface below and a 'sky' above...)

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

(The first emergence of dry land out of the ocean world Earth. We only first found in 2017 hard evidence that the early Earth was an ocean world,, before the first continents emerged.)

That was a big discovery, and I was truly truly surprised:

Earth started 4.4 billion years ago as a flat, barren water world, scientists say - UPI.com

Ancient rocks in Australia suggest early Earth was flat, barren and mostly under water.

www.upi.com

This has now been repeatedly concluded by several independent research groups.

That's called scientific concordism. It's reading ones own culture into the text. As if just 5 years ago, by shear chance over the past 3000 years no one had known, but in our age somehow we are just by sheer coincidence enlightened.

Meanwhile the ancient Egyptians in 4000 BC were talking about how the waters were gathered to reveal dry land around the Egyptian god Tah.

Let the Bible be what it is. The ancient near east already provides full and sufficient explanatory power for the text. No need to inject 21st century science into it where the text describes no such details. The Bible doesn't say anything about billions of years passing or clouds clearing up. It doesn't say anything about swirling mist in the air either.

What you're doing is just as bad as what YECs do when they talk about how leviathan is a dinosaur and act like it's not strange that it breathes fire or has multiple heads, see Psalm 74:14.

 

[Job 33:6]

They saw that the moon was a sphere. The sun was a sphere.....logic would have told them that the earth was a sphere.

Even that far back, people had common sense.

The sun looks like a circle last I checked. There's never any description of the sun being a sphere in ancient times. The only way to see it's spherical shape is to travel into space, which has never been done in ancient times or by ancient people.

This is why shooting stars are often talked about as if they are sons of God in the Bible too, because people didn't really know what stars were. That's why in revelation the stars fall as well, because the solid dome raqia is collapsing, much like during Noah's flood when it's windows open. The chaos restrained above rains down.

Ever seen a passage in the Bible that describes stars like gas? No.
Ever seen a passage that says how far away they are? No.
Ever seen a passage that describes stars like distant suns? No.

The authors didn't know what they were. Just lights. Stuck inside the raqia, the solid dome of the sky. Genesis 1:14. In it or inside it, like thumbtacks in a cork board.

 

[Halbhh]

Ever seen a passage in the Bible that describes stars like gas? No.

Of course not. The bible is about bringing us back to God, reconciling us to God.

So, it will never be about unrelated side topics like biochemistry, geology, astronomy, stellar composition....

I say that from having read it through 3 times now --- there isn't even 1 single verse that is about the composition of stars.

There's no verse about General Relativity.

There's no verse about how chemistry works, nor Quantum Mechanics.

Try to get a tablu rosa on this, I suggest. Even though that is very hard to do the first time you try.

It will be better to just read Genesis chapters 1 through 3 as if you never heard another human being every say anything about it -- fresh -- as if you just woke up for the first time in a new world, and read the text as a brand new thing.

Where no one tried to make it into a mythology, nor a literalism, etc., etc.

But to just listen to the words, like you would a new poem you've never read.
'

 

[Lost4words]

The sun looks like a circle last I checked. There's never any description of the sun being a sphere in ancient times. The only way to see it's spherical shape is to travel into space, which has never been done in ancient times or by ancient people.

This is why shooting stars are often talked about as if they are sons of God in the Bible too, because people didn't really know what stars were. That's why in revelation the stars fall as well, because the solid dome raqia is collapsing, much like during Noah's flood when it's windows open. The chaos restrained above rains down.

Ever seen a passage in the Bible that describes stars like gas? No.
Ever seen a passage that says how far away they are? No.
Ever seen a passage that describes stars like distant suns? No.

The authors didn't know what they were. Just lights. Stuck inside the raqia, the solid dome of the sky. Genesis 1:14. In it or inside it, like thumbtacks in a cork board.

Sphere / circle.....same to me

 

[coffee4u]

I hear a lot of Christians saying that we live on a flat earth and nobody can go in or out the earth. Is the Bible clear on this subject?

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers.

the circle khûg (חוּג) vault, horizon

Vault gives the idea of something three-dimensional.
This could be a flat earth with a dome or a round earth.

However in modern Hebrew, khûg is used to mean sphere and in Arabic (another Semitic language), kura means ball.
In the sixteenth century Santes Pagnino translated this as sphaera long before the modern scientific age.

Due to this I would say from a Biblcal perspective that it is most likely that the earth is round and that even in the time of Isaiah this was understood.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

They saw that the moon was a sphere. The sun was a sphere.....logic would have told them that the earth was a sphere.

Even that far back, people had common sense.

But today it seems many do not. Unless they are just having fun promoting FE knowing it isn't so.

 

[Joy]

MOD HAT ON

This Thread has Moved

From Creation & Theistic Evolution

To Non-Mainstream and Controversial Science

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Job 33:6]

Of course not. The bible is about bringing us back to God, reconciling us to God.

So, it will never be about unrelated side topics like biochemistry, geology, astronomy, stellar composition....

I say that from having read it through 3 times now --- there isn't even 1 single verse that is about the composition of stars.

There's no verse about General Relativity.

There's no verse about how chemistry works, nor Quantum Mechanics.

Try to get a tablu rosa on this, I suggest. Even though that is very hard to do the first time you try.

It will be better to just read Genesis chapters 1 through 3 as if you never heard another human being every say anything about it -- fresh -- as if you just woke up for the first time in a new world, and read the text as a brand new thing.

Where no one tried to make it into a mythology, nor a literalism, etc., etc.

But to just listen to the words, like you would a new poem you've never read.
'

The point I was making in my post is that, the Bible never makes a claim that sounds anachronistic or futuristic. Not with relation to anything scientific.

As our examples, if the Bible simply stated that stars were burning gas. Or if it stated that there were other Earth's in the heavens. Or anything like that, It would easily demonstrate that the biblical authors were scientifically advanced by thousands of years.

But instead what we see are things such as the sky being described as firm or hard like cast metal, or we read about windows and doors in the sky and pillars holding up the Earth in an ocean.

And these were scientific cosmological ideas held by ancient people's in Egypt, mesopotamia, sumerian, Babylon etc.

And this suggests that the Bible is actually talking about ancient ideas.

Even if we call it poetry, it's still poetry that expresses ancient ideas. Not futuristic scientific ideas.

And this is important because when we read the Bible, we don't want to read ideas into the Bible that are not actually there. So it's important to consider the Bibles context.

 

[Lost4words]

People should be concentrating on what the Bible was originally meant for.......not for determining the shape of the earth etc etc etc etc