FLAT or ROUND Earth?

[Akita Suggagaki]

Why is it such a problem for people to accept that early church fathers lived in a time before a spherical earth was discovered, and thus believed in a flat earth?

Because people want to give early church fathers some kind of unlimited authority, as if, because they held it, it must be true. Same goes for today's flat Earthers, if they are really so. They beleive because the Bible says so.

 

[Frank Sophia]

For me such questions arise when experience of God ceases to be central to Christian life...

2 Corinthians 3:1-18 is quite blunt about the nature of this inquiry...

We should all trust science on factual matters about our reality, but God is a mystical revelation.

 

[Lost4words]

Like i have said, God has given us science and great minds too.

The earth is round. Simple.....

 

[Phil G]

This is like saying that the Biblical authors weren't young earth creationists because the Bible doesn't say the age of the earth.

It was their default position because future discoveries had not yet occurred. This is why the Babylonians and Egyptians had maps of a flat earth. This is why the early Catholic church believed in geocentrism, and why early church fathers such as john chrysostom were flat earthers.
You'll never find an early church heliocentrist, not an ancient near east inscription of a spherical earth.

Earth resting on top of pillars with a dome over it is something that presupposes a flat earth. And the Bible has many passages like this.

Water under the earth, pillars under the earth that are sunk. Heaven being "up", Sheol being "down". The firmament or raqia terminating at the horizon between light and day.

All these ideas in the Bible all presuppose a flat earth. Because earth had not yet been discovered to be round, the default was to accept what was visibly seen. Which to the naked eye, is flat.

And no, the passages about the circle of the earth are not referring to spheres, because people had not yet discovered a spherical planet. When the Bible describes the circle of the earth, that's what it means. A circle.

No it is not like saying anything of the sort. You are mixing apples and oranges (so to speak). Saying what you are saying is denying God had any hand in the writing of Scripture. It would then be purely written down according to the authors' knowledge of the present, not God's eternal knowledge. And if that's the case then it's just a book full of opinions, not God's truth. It doesn't matter what the early church fathers believed about the shape of the earth, they didn't write Scripture and their writings are not Scripture.

The fact is the Bible has nothing to say about the shape of the earth. You are interpreting phrases and words in a very narrow understanding. The diagram you post is from much later than the biblical time period so there is no need to post it. It depends on the same narrow understanding of Hebrew words and phrases and is based on opinion.

As I have said, if you take those narrow understandings as literal, then the book of Isaiah has the earth as both a circular disc and an object with four corners. It can't be both. In fact it is neither, and that must mean, if the Bible is God's Holy Word written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, any interpretation of Scripture to indicate a flat earth is a wrong intepretation.

 

[Job 33:6]

No it is not like saying anything of the sort. You are mixing apples and oranges (so to speak). Saying what you are saying is denying God had any hand in the writing of Scripture. It would then be purely written down according to the authors' knowledge of the present, not God's eternal knowledge. And if that's the case then it's just a book full of opinions, not God's truth. It doesn't matter what the early church fathers believed about the shape of the earth, they didn't write Scripture and their writings are not Scripture.

The fact is the Bible has nothing to say about the shape of the earth. You are interpreting phrases and words in a very narrow understanding. The diagram you post is from much later than the biblical time period so there is no need to post it. It depends on the same narrow understanding of Hebrew words and phrases and is based on opinion.

As I have said, if you take those narrow understandings as literal, then the book of Isaiah has the earth as both a circular disc and an object with four corners. It can't be both. In fact it is neither, and that must mean, if the Bible is God's Holy Word written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, any interpretation of Scripture to indicate a flat earth is a wrong intepretation.

The Bible has many verses about earth resting on pillars in an ocean. With a crystal dome over it.

This is classic ANE cosmology. And it's drawn in ancient maps, as noted a few times now. The Babylonian map of the world. Inscriptions in sarcophagus' and tombs of Egypt. The Babylonian kudurru stone.

And it's very blatant in the Bible.

And there's a difference between recognizing that the biblical authors did not have futuristic knowledge that they themselves wouldn't understand about science, and saying that God didn't have a hand in inspiring the Bible.

And it's not just about the early church fathers.

Where do you think the early church fathers got the belief that Earth rested on pillars in an ocean?

They got it from the ancient near East where ancient Jews discussed the matter in great detail.

And you want to know where ancient Jews got this idea?

Ancient near east cosmology, where ancient writings and artifacts depict and say the same thing. Ie the Bible.

Just read the Bible, there are many verses about Earth resting on pillars in an ocean. This is exactly what other ancient near East culture is described and depicted.

Just let the Bible say what it says.

As if the church can't fathom the possibility that God could inspire people without giving them futuristic scientific knowledge. Knowledge that the biblical authors themselves wouldn't have even understood nor would their audience, therefore rendering the Bible useless

The church has way too much difficulty understanding this basic reality. This common sense scenario in which people in the past did not know 21st century science.

 

[Phil G]

The Bible has many verses about earth resting on pillars in an ocean. With a crystal dome over it.

No it doesn't. The word you interpret as 'dome' can mean 'expanse'. Pillars of the earth is metaphor just as four corners of the earth is metaphor.

This is classic ANE cosmology. And it's drawn in ancient maps, as noted a few times now. The Babylonian map of the world. Inscriptions in sarcophagus' and tombs of Egypt. The Babylonian kudurru stone.

It is drawn according to opinion, it is not an ancient drawing at all.

Where do you think the early church fathers got the belief that Earth rested on pillars in an ocean?

The same place as you, opinion.

And you want to know where ancient Jews got this idea?

They didn't. That again is an opinion about what the ancient Jews believed.

 

[Strong in Him]

I hear a lot of Christians saying that we live on a flat earth and nobody can go in or out the earth. Is the Bible clear on this subject?

No.
The Bible reveals God; it is not a science textbook.

 

[Job 33:6]

No it doesn't. The word you interpret as 'dome' can mean 'expanse'. Pillars of the earth is metaphor just as four corners of the earth is metaphor.

It is drawn according to opinion, it is not an ancient drawing at all.

The same place as you, opinion.

They didn't. That again is an opinion about what the ancient Jews believed.

It's not an opinion that ancient Jews believed in ANE cosmology. Many writings of semitic Jews blatantly attest to it.

 

[Job 33:6]

It's not an opinion that ancient Jews believed in ANE cosmology. Many writings of semitic Jews blatantly attest to it.

Here are a couple quotes. Bereshit raba and the Jewish talmud:

 

[Job 33:6]

Here are a couple quotes. Bereshit raba and the Jewish talmud:

View attachment 330186
View attachment 330185

And if these aren't old enough for you, here are examples of artifacts, the kudurru stone, Babylonian map of the world, sarcophagi in Egypt in multiple instances depict ANE cosmology both before and after the writing of the old textamsnt:

 

[Job 33:6]

And if these aren't old enough for you, here are examples of artifacts, the kudurru stone, Babylonian map of the world, sarcophagi in Egypt in multiple instances depict ANE cosmology both before and after the writing of the old textamsnt:
View attachment 330187

And the Bible really couldn't describe ANE cosmology more clearly.

Many verses can be found in the Bible about pillars holding up the earth in an ocean. Many verses talk about a solid sky dome. Go read Job 38:17 the sky spread out like molten metal. I mean, it really couldn't be stated more clearly.

When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
Proverbs 8:27

Isaiah 40:22 Amplified Bible (AMP)
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth

Heres a list I found onlineL
To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Let's look at some more verses on the raqia:
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

He has described a circle on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place forever and ever, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

he will wind a winding tightly around you like a ball (The biblical authors had words for spherical objects that they could use if they wanted to), to a wide land. There you shall die, and there the chariots of your splendor will be, disgrace to your master’s house!
Isaiah 22:18

He raises up the poor from the dust. From the ash heap he lifts up the needy, to cause them to sit with noble people and to cause them to inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth belong to Yahweh and he has set the inhabited world on them.
1 Samuel 2:8

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk (talking about the pillars that hold earth up)? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

 

[Omniskeptical]

It's not an opinion that ancient Jews believed in ANE cosmology. Many writings of semitic Jews blatantly attest to it.

The Old Testament talks about a firmament which is a plateau elevation, not a dome sky. You are sadly mistaken because you don't know enough Hebrew.

 

[Job 33:6]

The Old Testament talks about a firmament which is a plateau elevation, not a dome sky. You are sadly mistaken because you don't know enough Hebrew.

No. It's talking about a solid dome.
with him can you spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

When He made firm [strengthened] the skies above, When the fountains and springs of the deep became fixed and strong,
Proverbs 8:28 AMP

the fountains of the deep and the *windows of the heavens were closed*, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

There are many verses like this. And many about earth sitting on pillars over Sheol. Many verses about an ocean above.

It's classic ANE cosmology. And it's blatant.

 

[Omniskeptical]

No. It's talking about a solid dome.
with him can you spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

When He made firm [strengthened] the skies above, When the fountains and springs of the deep became fixed and strong,
Proverbs 8:28 AMP

the fountains of the deep and the *windows of the heavens were closed*, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

There are many verses like this. And many about earth sitting on pillars over Sheol. Many verses about an ocean above.

It's classic ANE cosmology. And it's blatant.

Heavens is actually elevations. Window is actually an opening. Translucent glass hadn't been invented yet etc. I poke a hole in your cosmology easily because it assumes the existence of a compass rose which proved without a doubt that the world was round. But astrolabes did exist back then.

 

[Job 33:6]

Heavens is actually elevations. Window is actually an opening. Translucent glass hadn't been invented yet etc. I poke a hole in your cosmology easily because it assumes the existence of a compass rose which proved without a doubt that the world was round. But astrolabes did exist back then.

Its otherwise translated as hard like sapphire stone or bronze like caste copper plates. Do you think that these hadnt been invented yet? blue stone?

There are ancient inscriptions and writings about earth resting on pillars. an example would be the kudduru stone, or the ocean resting atop the firmament of the tablet of shamash.

"Hey thats what the Bible says!"

No! when it says pillars holding up earth in the ocean, its actually talking about....um!....oh I know, plate tectonics!

Come on guys, its plain and simple. Just accept the Bible as it is, read what it says.

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

oh thats just poetry!

yea ok, poetry describing ancient near east cosmology.

 

[Job 33:6]

Its otherwise translated as hard like sapphire stone or bronze like caste copper plates. Do you think that these hadnt been invented yet? blue stone?

There are ancient inscriptions and writings about earth resting on pillars. an example would be the kudduru stone, or the ocean resting atop the firmament of the tablet of shamash.

"Hey thats what the Bible says!"

No! when it says pillars holding up earth in the ocean, its actually talking about....um!....oh I know, plate tectonics!

Come on guys, its plain and simple. Just accept the Bible as it is, read what it says.

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

oh thats just poetry!

yea ok, poetry describing ancient near east cosmology.

and I agree that Genesis 7:11 and 8:2 describing openings. And those openings open and close, just like the Bible says, and they release and restrain water.

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2


Just let the Bible say what it says.

The Biblical authors lived thousands of years before anyone discovered a spherical earth. Just let the authors say what theyre trying to say. Quit trying to force them to become super-human 21st century scientists.

 

[Omniskeptical]

Its otherwise translated as hard like sapphire stone or bronze like caste copper plates. Do you think that these hadnt been invented yet?

YES!

 

[Halbhh]

God intentionally at times talks down on our mere mortal level, far beneath His own understanding. For instance, when Jesus spoke to the Jews before the cross, He at times used simplified ideas that we know now (having the test of the New Testament, which did not yet exist at that time) aren't exactly what heaven will be, because the Jews might not understand the more full, complete picture.

So, God spoke down on their level, in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Christ worded it in a way they might be able to at least comprehend according to their very limited understanding:

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.

Of course, heaven isn't to be merely under Father Abraham. But for Jews at that moment, this was a very excellent way to help them grasp the general thing: to go to the good place in the afterlife.

So, we should be cautious not to assume that the wonderful wordings of Job 38-42 were read as just merely concrete descriptions (read and see for yourself all 4 chapters...) --- It's wonderfully very poetical sounding, and with clear definite metaphors you will yourself totally agree are metaphors....

And that's good, because the bigger message, the key message is conveyed: God has wrought a wonderous natural world... that's a key message: we should not think we are wiser than God, even while we gain understanding, it's still such an amazing world which we only partly understand.

Have faith in God. The Earth is round, but someone being correct, or being wrong, about something on that or in Genesis 1 etc. -- that correctness or mistake won't save them nor prevent them from being saved.

We are only saved by faith in Christ our Redeemer, who died on the cross, and rose again.

We have to put our faith entirely in Christ (not theories about the Earth or of how to interpret Genesis 1, etc., etc.) , and because of that real faith in Christ, want to listen to Him (showing real faith) -- to listen to all He taught to us in the gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke John) -- with "ears that hear" (being willing to be humble and listen to Him).

So, here's the real foundation that is overwhelmingly our priority, first and last, to get right:

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” -- Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:24-27 - New International Version

It's not an opinion that ancient Jews believed in ANE cosmology.

Some did I bet. And many never gave it even one moment of thought, just like today many people don't have any idea even what shape the United States is.... And some others no doubt thought other ideas, of course. That all of them were failing to know much about the actual cosmology (that is real) isn't very important.

We should not attach any significance to the various competing cosmologies of past times. Of course people came up with theories. That's only a mere curiosity though.

People will approach the bible too often with a preconceived idea, and it controls how they see the words, preventing them from getting the more realistic seeing and read, of the wonderful verses about how good our world is, which someone else can get that isn't' seeking to invent or prove or argue for some silly man made cosmology from a chapter that is zero to do with cosmology.

 

[Job 33:6]

YES!

You dont think people had cast bronze plates in the time of the writing of genesis? What do you think the laver was casted out of in the tabernacle?

 

[Omniskeptical]

You dont think people had cast bronze plates in the time of the writing of genesis? What do you think the laver was casted out of in the tabernacle?

Bronze age, not the Iron age. And the "gold" is actually copper.