Female student files civil rights complaint over boy in girls’ locker room

[Jon Osterman]

Are you serious? How does the mere presence of a transgirl threaten anybody? That idea is repulsive. I guess there's no sense trying to have a reasonable discussion with you.

The girl explicitly complained about it, saying she felt threatened. You are denying her right to express her fear - fear and threat are not necessarily always physical. You seem to have a very one-sided view of this topic.

My sister is a transgendered woman. This started as a teenager in school, where it became known that she liked to dress up in women's clothing. Ironically, my older "brother" was outwardly much more manly than me, much more outgoing, flirtatious with girls and a bit of a "bad boy". I was quiet, studious and didn't date. So when rumours started about one of the boys from my family wanting to be a woman, everyone assumed it was me. Of course, they don't believe you if you deny it. So I have personally experienced quite a bit of anti-trans bullying, ranging from having abuse shouted at me in the street, to getting beaten up, to being socially excluded.

So I have a good degree of empathy for transgendered people and understand a little bit of what they face socially. However, I am also empathic enough to recognise that a young girl would feel threatened by being in a locker room, expected to get naked in front of someone they regard as being of the opposite sex.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not every expression of fear reflects a legitimate concern that we have to dignify. People can feel an existential fear around amputees or the disabled, for instance, but that doesn't mean discriminating against them is OK.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Then why did He create creatures which are gender-fluid? Adult fish of some species do switch sex. Certain reptiles as well.

At least if we are talking about guppies - a female fish can carry around sperm or milt for quite a while after mating, at least for several generations, and then inseminate other female fish. The fish undergo a "gender transition" to do so. This typically happens when populations are low and there aren't enough males.

My grandma had guppies practically her whole adult life and she swore this happened and nobody believed her, but I researched it a few years ago and it's actually true.

We are discussing human beings whom God created in His image not fish.

 

[FireDragon76]

We are discussing human beings whom God created in His image not fish.

Right, human beings have no resemblance to fish biologically, even when human embryos have gill ridges and tails.... (sigh)

 

[Kaon]

Christians should be ashamed for using labels like "gender-confused boys". Let's go around belittling the experience of yet more minorities. It's not like that didn't go over well in the 19th century over Black chattel slavery or the 80's and 90's over gay rights.

Here's a hint, being a Christian gives you no right to define other peoples experiences.

Do you think the Most High God approves of a man behaving like a woman - when the person was created like a man? He told us to rightfully judge so as to not be hypocrites.

While LGBTQ is a phenomenally marginalized group, it is completely different from African-American slaves, and racism in America. The two are apples and oranges, and I wish slavery and racism would stop being used to exploit a remotely related cause. It is interesting we all know slavery and racism is bad, but we rarely confront it, and often excuse it.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

I don't think there is a way to resolve this that makes everyone happy and I don't think it needs to. I'm female, I also was sexually assaulted before high school and would not have been ok with penises in the locker room. It would have likely caused panic attacks I wouldn't have been able to control.

I'm also Black and Bi, I understand isolation and prejudice.

That said, I'm ok with the creation of a small "modesty" unisex locker room with individual stalls. There is no need to completely redesign locker rooms for the majority of the population. Transgender folks account for less than 1% of the population - 0.6 last I checked.

The transkids get a safe place to change where neither cisgirls nor cisboys can harass then. At the same time, kids who may not be ready (for whatever reason) to be potentially exposed to opposite sex genitalia, won't be.

Maybe the transkids don't get the inclusion they want, but they get the safety they need.

 

[FireDragon76]

While LGBTQ is a phenomenally marginalized group, it is completely different from African-American slaves, and racism in America. The two are apples and oranges, and I wish slavery and racism would stop being used to exploit a remotely related cause. It is interesting we all know slavery and racism is bad, but we rarely confront it, and often excuse it.

The NAACP actually doesn't see it that way, that's why they supported gay marriage and LGBT equality. Mildred Loving, before she died, also spoke out on behalf of marriage equality and said the causes are identical, being able to marry people you love.

My generation was bitterly divided over something that should have been so clear and right. The majority believed that what the judge said, that it was God's plan to keep people apart, and that government should discriminate against people in love. But I have lived long enough now to see big changes. The older generation's fears and prejudices have given way, and today's young people realize that if someone loves someone they have a right to marry.

Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the "wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people’s religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people’s civil rights.

I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about.

- Mildred Loving, June 14, 2007

 

[ms.smith]

So a minor female has to put aside her discomfort while she is undressing because a (biological) male might feel uncomfortable?

The fact is, this (biological) male child may feel dysmorphia about their gender and desire to behave as a female. OR, correct me if I'm wrong, but some males just like to dress like women, and are still straight males, who enjoy looking at women? Don't some who crossdress, just crossdress?

So, we can't just go on appearance to protect women, biological women, from men, biological men, even if they are dressed as women. Just dressing as women don't mean they have dysmorphia, it just means they are dressed as a woman.

I don't want to see people, children, who struggle with dysmorphia put in danger. But I don't want biological women put in danger or made to feel violated either. It's difficult.

I was homeschooled, I never had to shower in public spaces as a child. But if a person, who had a penis, was walking around my gym locker room, it would make me extremely uncomfortable, even as an adult. I don't care how they are dressed, it would make me feel vulnerable and uncomfortable.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think there is a way to resolve this that makes everyone happy and I don't think it needs to. I'm female, I also was sexually assaulted before high school and would not have been ok with penises in the locker room. It would have likely caused panic attacks I wouldn't have been able to control.

I'm also Black and Bi, I understand isolation and prejudice.

That said, I'm ok with the creation of a small "modesty" unisex locker room with individual stalls. There is no need to completely redesign locker rooms for the majority of the population. Transgender folks account for less than 1% of the population - 0.6 last I checked.

The transkids get a safe place to change where neither cisgirls nor cisboys can harass then. At the same time, kids who may not be ready (for whatever reason) to be potentially exposed to opposite sex genitalia, won't be.

Maybe the transkids don't get the inclusion they want, but they get the safety they need.

I think that's a more reasonable perspective than simply insisting they use the boys locker room.

 

[ms.smith]

I don't think there is a way to resolve this that makes everyone happy and I don't think it needs to. I'm female, I also was sexually assaulted before high school and would not have been ok with penises in the locker room. It would have likely caused panic attacks I wouldn't have been able to control.

I'm also Black and Bi, I understand isolation and prejudice.

That said, I'm ok with the creation of a small "modesty" unisex locker room with individual stalls. There is no need to completely redesign locker rooms for the majority of the population. Transgender folks account for less than 1% of the population - 0.6 last I checked.

The transkids get a safe place to change where neither cisgirls nor cisboys can harass then. At the same time, kids who may not be ready (for whatever reason) to be potentially exposed to opposite sex genitalia, won't be.

Maybe the transkids don't get the inclusion they want, but they get the safety they need.

I think this is a good solution. A smaller "modesty" unisex locker room would be a good compromise.

In the long run, I'd prefer a trend of a redesign for locker rooms, in general, to have single stall showers and at least curtained changing areas readily available.

 

[comana]

I think this is a good solution. A smaller "modesty" unisex locker room would be a good compromise.

In the long run, I'd prefer a trend of a redesign for locker rooms, in general, to have single stall showers and at least curtained changing areas readily available.

I think this is the best solution all around.

 

[Kaon]

The NAACP actually doesn't see it that way, that's why they supported gay marriage and LGBT equality. Mildred Loving, before she died, also spoke out on behalf of marriage equality and said the causes are identical, being able to marry people you love.

The NAACP does not represent the Black, Latino, Chicano, Islander or Asian experience in America. They are an organization that strives for advancement for the aforementioned groups of people - but they are an organization. The organization also has liabilities, and if they want to survive they aren't going to risk open hypocrisy by admonishing and rejecting another severely oppressed group.

But LGBTQ and racism/slavery in America are two separate issues, and one should not exploit the other for awareness. It categorically marginalizes the group being exploited.


What does the Most High God think about man and man, or woman and woman marrying?

What if we exchange same sex marriage to human-angel marriage. Would it be ok for a woman to mate with an angel because she loves him? It is still forbidden by the Most High God, and He doesn't renege on His Word, and His Word (the Son of Man) will not contradict His Father.

 

[SarahsKnight]

I don't think there is a way to resolve this that makes everyone happy and I don't think it needs to. I'm female, I also was sexually assaulted before high school and would not have been ok with penises in the locker room. It would have likely caused panic attacks I wouldn't have been able to control.

I'm also Black and Bi, I understand isolation and prejudice.

That said, I'm ok with the creation of a small "modesty" unisex locker room with individual stalls. There is no need to completely redesign locker rooms for the majority of the population. Transgender folks account for less than 1% of the population - 0.6 last I checked.

The transkids get a safe place to change where neither cisgirls nor cisboys can harass then. At the same time, kids who may not be ready (for whatever reason) to be potentially exposed to opposite sex genitalia, won't be.

Maybe the transkids don't get the inclusion they want, but they get the safety they need.

A seemingly fair and balanced argument that tries to understand both points of view and accommodate them. Well said, Miss.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think the OP demonstrates that kids pick up on the things they are taught by their parents.

That men sometimes physically and sexually victimize women?

True story.

My wife has this weird thing were she used to go into the mens room with her best friend. Did it for years and it never caused an issue. She was OK with it. Her friend was OK with it. I was OK with it. Why should i give a damn about what you think about it?

True story, while working at a bar in college I and a bouncer had to break up a sexual assault on an extremely inebriated woman. Two guys had followed her into women's room when no one seemed to be paying attention...but happened to pass a guy leaving the men's room. That guy alerted the bartender, who alerted me, and I got the bartender.

I'd like to tell you these guys were prosecuted by police, but we were more concerned about her and they slipped out. She was obviously upset, but not entirely sure what had happened.

So as long as she has a beard or he has breasts it is all good to go? Works for me.

Not sure what you're asking about here.

What kind of risk specifically?

Sexual assault, voyeurism, rape and violence....in a particularly vulnerable situation that makes it extremely difficult if not impossible for a woman to flee her attacker.

Specific enough?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Let me repeat an earlier post of mine...

Which bathroom should this person use...?

View attachment 254877

Although this feels like a setup...

I think this person wouldn't have any problem using the men's room.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Feelings of discomfort are not equivocal to the security needs of transpeople.

What security needs? Are trans women particularly vulnerable in a restroom with men?

 

[Allandavid]

Although this feels like a setup...

I think this person wouldn't have any problem using the men's room.

Great! And, likewise, I assume you’d have no problem with this person using the ladies’ room either...?

 

[Belk]

That men sometimes physically and sexually victimize women?

That kids will disagree with whom their parents disagree with.

True story, while working at a bar in college I and a bouncer had to break up a sexual assault on an extremely inebriated woman. Two guys had followed her into women's room when no one seemed to be paying attention...but happened to pass a guy leaving the men's room. That guy alerted the bartender, who alerted me, and I got the bartender.

I'd like to tell you these guys were prosecuted by police, but we were more concerned about her and they slipped out. She was obviously upset, but not entirely sure what had happened.

How does this in any way relate to the previous points you raised? You claim that people will freak out if someone goes into the bathroom that is not their gender. I give anecdotal evidence that this is wrong and suddenly we are discussing two guys raping women?

Not sure what you're asking about here.

You said we utilize restrooms based on secondary sex characteristics. So if a woman has a beard she should use the men's room and if a man has breasts he should use the womens.

Sexual assault, voyeurism, rape and violence....in a particularly vulnerable situation that makes it extremely difficult if not impossible for a woman to flee her attacker.

Specific enough?

Yes. Do you have any credible evidence that allowing transgender people to us the restroom of their gender has any impact on sexual assault statistics? Frankly this strikes me as nothing more then base fear mongering.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Great! And, likewise, I assume you’d have no problem with this person using the ladies’ room either...?

View attachment 254961

Would I? Probably not.

 

[FireDragon76]

What security needs? Are trans women particularly vulnerable in a restroom with men?

Yes.