"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

[itisdeliciouscake]

the 'men choose sin because they prefer evil' is a highly flawed premise for that argument.

 

[nobdysfool]

That's right bro , and that is the Fatal FLAW of this thread , ben has created a FALSE dichotomy , he thinks ;

'as an unregenerate person is always drawn towards sin according to those pesky Calvinist's seeing as he has a sin nature , even so a regenerate person must also always act righteously seeing as he has a NEW nature , therefore why do Christians still sin , I have them pesky Calvinist's with dis one '

thus he is simplistically defining the one dimensional thinking of sinners (always downward) as being equal to a supposed one dimensional thinking of those saved (always upwards), he has done this before , but Calvinists don't believe in equal ultimacy ; that God works in the same way with sinners as He does with the Regenerate , because God doesn't work sin in any unbeliever as He does work Righteousness in a believer.

Ben's whole post in the OP is therefore totally flawed.

Exactly right. The entire argument is built on several flaws. The one you just pointed out so clearly, and the mistaken belief that people can be saved apart from Christ, due to a flawed humanistic idea of "fairness" on the part of God. This requires that man be morally neutral with regard to sin, equally able to choose either the good or the evil, and that some men naturally seek God. The scriptural truth that all men deserve hell by reason of their having been born as sinners, is ignored and rejected by him. Also rejected by him is the truth that the sinner deserves the just sentence for their sins and that God is not unjust to leave them in their sins.

Christians don't always follow after Christ , seeing as they have still within themselves the same fallen nature that opposes God and loves sin , the question really ought to be what gurantees have the Christian been given that they will in the final analysis be victorious and finally win over sin the flesh and the Devil .

Paul spoke about the war within our members, where we desire to do good, but our flesh desires the opposite. We learn and grow as we learn to overcome the desire to sin. That is why we are not immediately glorified, so that we can learn obedience by the things we suffer, just as Jesus did in His Flesh.

Ben's other mistake is to suggest that Christians are in the same place , no better and no worse than they were before they were born-again , at both stages ben will have it that men can obey God , that men can do whatever God commands , and that it's all down to human will , but even an alcoholic or a gambler will reject that one.

His is an idealistic, humanistic view, which rejects clear truths of scripture. The Christian, by reason of being cleansed from sin, justified and given a new heart, is able for the first time in their lives to make morally good, God-pleasing choices. The sinner cannot do so, so there is an immediate improvement in the Christian, in being able to obey God, and do what He commands. So Christians and sinners are not on the same level before God.

What really is lacking from ben's theories is what benefit there is in even being born-again , if he thinks , as I am sure he still does , that we are born-again merely to have eternal life , then that is such a skewed view of things as to be laughable , Jesus has eternal life and he was never born-again.

That comes from the mistaken view that Ben holds, that salvation is defined as "fellowship". It is much, much more than that.

The truth is those who can obey God , who can submit to God , who have it already within themselves to please God have no real NEED of being born-again and granted God's nature. For that operation would be superfluous.

Jesus said "I did not come to call the righteous, but rather sinners to repentance. They that are whole do not need a physician, but rather they who are sick."

Some have misinterpeted this to mean that there are some who are righteous apart from Him, and that the condition of the sinner is "sick in sins" rather than "dead in sins". Such a view ignores the figures of speech He was using, and the comparisons He was making. Sinners need to repent. Sick people need a doctor. He was not indicating that there were those who didn't need repentance, or healing. He was making His point by employing contrasts in opposites.

 

[Ormly]

The apostles were not even aware that they had already been cleansed ....... and cleansing comes via the washing of regeneration ..... see their lack of understanding when Jesus washed their feet ....... Judas was never clean.

Regeneration wasn't possible UNTIL AFTER the resurrection as DEMONSTRATED in JOHN 20.22.

Is there something you don't understand that needs further explaining so we don't have to keep going back over this same territory? It elementary stuff. Why don't you accept it?

The washing of the feet was a demonstration of servanthood. "He who would be leader let him first become the servant". Jesus ordained them to be leaders and was showing them by demonstration how to enter into the process of becoming.

 

[Ormly]

Regeneration means the taking into us the very Nature of the Father as Jesus possessed by His birth. It is that Nature alone the Father [HS] can only communicate with. It is that Nature alone, the evidence of which by default, seeks union with God. You might say it is "deep calling to deep". This newly created deposition is purposed to be increased by the impartation of the Character of God as it is learned. There can be no compromise in this in any way with our human nature that clamors for attention and screams for it rights to be observed. Crucifying it is therefore by degrees as it reveals itself in the various ways it will. This is what could be called the grooming for son-ship that must happen if we are to say we are growing in Christ. There is no automatic immediate death to self that regeneration provides for. Only loving the Father with all your heart, soul, mind and strength will accomplish that. In fact unless you are regenerated you will never realize you have a self that controls you [FONT="]that you must act upon [/FONT]and will it only go kicking and screaming by discipline from us that declares I love my heavenly Father and will do only as I see Him do.

What, no takers?

 

[cygnusx1]

Regeneration wasn't possible UNTIL AFTER the resurrection as DEMONSTRATED in JOHN 20.22.

John 20

[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

No mention is made of Regeneration here , this is just one occasion of several where Jesus grants them the Holy Spirit , sometime after this they receive the Holy Spirit , yet again , at Pentecost !


Ormly like so many Pente's , is arguing that all Holy Spirit actions are the same ; bringing New-Birth , when it is clear he is simply reading that into the text!

Nicodemus was rebuked for not realisuing a simple truth , a truth that is many times declared in te OT .

The reason it is several times mentioned in the OT , is because men were Regenerate in the OT , given New Hearts.

Also lacking from Ormly's self made construct is the fact that Thomas wasn't even there , so according to Ormly's view , Thomas wasn't even born again , no it's no good rushing to see if later Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit onto Thomas , He doesn't !

Is there something you don't understand that needs further explaining so we don't have to keep going back over this same territory? It elementary stuff. Why don't you accept it?

The washing of the feet was a demonstration of servanthood. "He who would be leader let him first become the servant". Jesus ordained them to be leaders and was showing them by demonstration how to enter into the process of becoming.

mind ya don't fall over , looking down on others makes for a dizzy head

 

[Ormly]

John 20

[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

No mention is made of Regeneration here , this is just one occasion of several where Jesus grants them the Holy Spirit , sometime after this they receive the Holy Spirit , yet again , at Pentecost !

Ormly like so many Pente's , is arguing that all Holy Spirit actions are the same ; bringing New-Birth , when it is clear he is simply reading that into the text!

Nicodemus was rebuked for not realisuing a simple truth , a truth that is many times declared in te OT .

The reason it is several times mentioned in the OT , is because men were Regenerate in the OT , given New Hearts.

Also lacking from Ormly's self made construct is the fact that Thomas wasn't even there , so according to Ormly's view , Thomas wasn't even born again , no it's no good rushing to see if later Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit onto Thomas , He doesn't !

mind ya don't fall over , looking down on others makes for a dizzy head

<unbelievable lack of knowledge - - catching my breath to recompose myself>

time passes:

<continuing to shake my head in disbelief while saying, what a distortion of the scriptures, who can bring rectification to this abysmal mindset? I don't know where to begin>

There are GREAT reasons in his post why not to rely upon commentaries; to believe in them as the gospel, as he has done. He is all over the map.

 

[cygnusx1]

these pages will not load , showing 13 , 14 & 15 none open , it's bugged

 

[nobdysfool]

these pages will not load , showing 13 , 14 & 15 none open , it's bugged

I can't get to the next page either. I'm going to post this to see if it will take me there....

 

[nobdysfool]

I can't get to the next page either. I'm going to post this to see if it will take me there....

I can see this post, but it's still on the same page. Yet the software shows a "page 4" (I have my preferences set to show 40 posts per page). Not sure what's up, maybe they need to repair the database (yet again....)

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
That's right bro , and that is the Fatal FLAW of this thread , Ben has created a FALSE dichotomy , he thinks ;

'as an unregenerate person is always drawn towards sin according to those pesky Calvinist's seeing as he has a sin nature , even so a regenerate person must also always act righteously seeing as he has a NEW nature , therefore why do Christians still sin , I have them pesky Calvinist's with dis one '​

And what's your answer? If God regenerates men so that belief is irresistible, why is it that sin (resisting God), is still possible?

That we CAN sin, exposes regeneration as NOT being "sovereignly-decreed". The point still stands.

Quote:
thus he is simplistically defining the one dimensional thinking of sinners (always downward) as being equal to a supposed one dimensional thinking of those saved (always upwards), he has done this before , but Calvinists don't believe in equal ultimacy ; that God works in the same way with sinners as He does with the Regenerate , because God doesn't work sin in any unbeliever as He does work Righteousness in a believer.​

Then how is it possible if we're "SOVEREIGNLY-REGENERATED", how is it possible to go AGAINST the regeneration and SIN?

Quote:
Ben's whole post in the OP is therefore totally flawed.​

As I just stated, if regeneration is "sovereignly monergistically accomplished", then 1Jn3:5&9 apply --- we cannot sin.

The only answer, is that "born of God is NOT sovereignly-decided". It is by faith, and therefore can be abided-in, or not.

Quote:
Christians don't always follow after Christ , seeing as they have still within themselves the same fallen nature that opposes God and loves sin ,​

Exactly! Which is it, Cygnus --- we still STRUGGLE with the fallen nature, or we have been "sovereignly-irresistibly-regenerated"?

Which?

Quote:
...the question really ought to be what guarantees have the Christian been given that they will in the final analysis be victorious and finally win over sin the flesh and the Devil .As we discussed in 2Pet1:5-10, we are required to be diligent in our calling and election that the gates of Heaven be provided. And Peter gives us the perfect example of NON-diligence --- a man who WAS once purified (was once saved), but now is ungodly and impure.

HIS path, will be OUR path, if we are NOT diligent. Peter's words are clear.

Quote:
Ben's other mistake is to suggest that Christians are in the same place , no better and no worse than they were before they were born-again , at both stages ben will have it that men can obey God , that men can do whatever God commands , and that it's all down to human will , but even an alcoholic or a gambler will reject that one.​

And you further prove my point; throughout Scripture we are required to NOT walk in sin, but walk in Christ. Rom6:12-18 is clear --- and there could BE no possible "walking in sin rather than in Christ", if regeneration was "sovereignly decided".

Quote:
What really is lacking from ben's theories is what benefit there is in even being born-again , if he thinks , as I am sure he still does , that we are born-again merely to have eternal life , then that is such a skewed view of things as to be laughable , Jesus has eternal life and he was never born-again.​

Either Paul meant (in 2Cor5:17) that the old has passed away FOREVER (in which case we do not fight the sin nature, we do not sin), or Paul meant "passed away", in the continuous sense (passing) that we are required to walk in Christ.

"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. SEE that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:6-8

Perfect harmony --- same exact thing Peter was saying, don't be deceived away from Christ. And this does NOT fit "the old has passed away forever".

We can be deceived back into it, back into unbelief, away from God.

Quote:
The truth is those who can obey God , who can submit to God , who have it already within themselves to please God have no real NEED of being born-again and granted God's nature. For that operation would be superfluous.​

Nonsense; without the sincere "drawing" (Jn12:32), we COULD NOT come to Him. But with the "sovereign-monergistic-regeneration" on which "Predestination" is founded, we MUST be sinless.

That we are not sinless, exposes the "fatal flaw" --- regeneration is resistible.

No way to argue against that.​

 

[nobdysfool]

Ben wants to be able to resist God. He apparently thinks that this is important to be able to do, or God is not being "fair".

Remind you of anyone else???? In the Garden??? Not human????

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
Acts 11:17

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? KJV

the gift of the Holy Spirit is not the same as regeneration Ben...​

You have yet to establish that men are regenerated BEFORE they receive the Spirit. Regeneration of us, is by the Holy Spirit who WAS POURED on us through Jesus our Savior --- per Titus 3:5-6. We've established that "poured", is "received-by-faith". You have not established "regeneration is by the NOT-YET poured Spirit".

Quote:
there is a mystery of regeneration that takes place before humans are aware of it , if you read in Acts that they through faith received the promised Holy Spirit , follow through your claim , did the Apostles only get born -again at Pentecost ?
No , and neither did the crowds who through faith received the Holy Spirit's outpouring .....​

So the Spirit indwells people who are NOT repentant and who are NOT "born again"? You don't see the problem with this?

Quote:
Consider the reason why The Holy Spirit was given after Christ was resurrected and timed to coincide with His ascension....... it has nothing to do with Regeneration , but empowerment and future guidance .​

Will you consider the reality that the Spirit's indwelling, and regeneration, must coexist? The Spirit cannot indwell an unregenerated person, and a person cannot be regenerated apart from the Spirit.

Quote:
You are stuck with a formula that insists faith is a prerequisite to regeneration , but although regeneration is necessary for salvation , faith is not required to be regenerate in fact many babies and idiots cannot have faith , because they lack understanding .​

Show me where "faith is not required for regeneration".

If "regeneration" equates to "made-alive", then "made-alive" is through faith. Eph2:5-8 is clear. And John5:40 has still not been adequately answered --- "coming to Jesus", only means "faith" --- and precedes "having life".

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Cygnus:
That's right bro , and that is the Fatal FLAW of this thread , Ben has created a FALSE dichotomy , he thinks ;

'as an unregenerate person is always drawn towards sin according to those pesky Calvinist's seeing as he has a sin nature , even so a regenerate person must also always act righteously seeing as he has a NEW nature , therefore why do Christians still sin , I have them pesky Calvinist's with dis one '​

And what's your answer? If God regenerates men so that belief is irresistible, why is it that sin (resisting God), is still possible?

we have been through this before , but here goes once again ben , The Holy Spirit's work is NOT all the same , a recognition that God has no difficulty Regenerating a person dead in sins is not meant to lead to YOUR false conclusion that God therefore can never be resisted ..... your a Prize winner at these false Dichotomies!

That we CAN sin, exposes regeneration as NOT being "sovereignly-decreed". The point still stands.

er , no , see above , no Calvinist says all God's works are the same type. The Holy Spirit works a variety of ways.

Quote:
thus he is simplistically defining the one dimensional thinking of sinners (always downward) as being equal to a supposed one dimensional thinking of those saved (always upwards), he has done this before , but Calvinists don't believe in equal ultimacy ; that God works in the same way with sinners as He does with the Regenerate , because God doesn't work sin in any unbeliever as He does work Righteousness in a believer.​

Then how is it possible if we're "SOVEREIGNLY-REGENERATED", how is it possible to go AGAINST the regeneration and SIN?

Effectual Calling is stated over and over in the New Testament , all who are predestined He calls ; Justifies , etc ... Regeneration is also a Sovereign work of God the Holy Spirit , sanctification however is another matter , so is mortification , learn to distinguish things that differ , and your objections will do what they must , evaporate.

Quote:
Ben's whole post in the OP is therefore totally flawed.​

As I just stated, if regeneration is "sovereignly monergistically accomplished", then 1Jn3:5&9 apply --- we cannot sin.

because you began with a false dichotomy which you still cannot see , a Christian is a two-part creature (flesh and Spirit) a unregenerate is a One-part creature (flesh) , only the Christian knows inward warfare ben ! So in future quit equating the one with the other .

The only answer, is that "born of God is NOT sovereignly-decided". It is by faith, and therefore can be abided-in, or not.

repeating yourself proves one thing , your NOT listening..........

Quote:
Christians don't always follow after Christ , seeing as they have still within themselves the same fallen nature that opposes God and loves sin ,​

Exactly! Which is it, Cygnus --- we still STRUGGLE with the fallen nature, or we have been "sovereignly-irresistibly-regenerated"?

Which?

​

round and round ya go , no direction , just round ya go.....

Quote:
...the question really ought to be what guarantees have the Christian been given that they will in the final analysis be victorious and finally win over sin the flesh and the Devil .As we discussed in 2Pet1:5-10, we are required to be diligent in our calling and election that the gates of Heaven be provided. And Peter gives us the perfect example of NON-diligence --- a man who WAS once purified (was once saved), but now is ungodly and impure.

No-one has ever denied diligence is needed , I am asking about guarantees and you blind side it and back yourself over a cliff .... oooops!

HIS path, will be OUR path, if we are NOT diligent. Peter's words are clear.

what guarantees has the Christian been given that he will make it to heaven ben ?

Don't answer "none" ... you can do better than that!

Quote:
Ben's other mistake is to suggest that Christians are in the same place , no better and no worse than they were before they were born-again , at both stages ben will have it that men can obey God , that men can do whatever God commands , and that it's all down to human will , but even an alcoholic or a gambler will reject that one.​

And you further prove my point; throughout Scripture we are required to NOT walk in sin, but walk in Christ. Rom6:12-18 is clear --- and there could BE no possible "walking in sin rather than in Christ", if regeneration was "sovereignly decided".

keep going round , are ya dizzy yet ?

Quote:
What really is lacking from ben's theories is what benefit there is in even being born-again , if he thinks , as I am sure he still does , that we are born-again merely to have eternal life , then that is such a skewed view of things as to be laughable , Jesus has eternal life and he was never born-again.​

Either Paul meant (in 2Cor5:17) that the old has passed away FOREVER (in which case we do not fight the sin nature, we do not sin), or Paul meant "passed away", in the continuous sense (passing) that we are required to walk in Christ.

ahaha!!! here we have ben attempting to decide where he stands on the sin nature in Christian's , let us all know what you decide , because you are treading water at the moment!

"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. SEE that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:6-8

Perfect harmony --- same exact thing Peter was saying, don't be deceived away from Christ. And this does NOT fit "the old has passed away forever".

round ya go , that's it ....weeeeeeeeeeee

We can be deceived back into it, back into unbelief, away from God.

then explain what it means toi be JUSTIFIED by faith ben !

*this ought to be good *

Quote:
The truth is those who can obey God , who can submit to God , who have it already within themselves to please God have no real NEED of being born-again and granted God's nature. For that operation would be superfluous.​

Nonsense; without the sincere "drawing" (Jn12:32), we COULD NOT come to Him. But with the "sovereign-monergistic-regeneration" on which "Predestination" is founded, we MUST be sinless.

that's it keep up the false dichotomy , God gave you two eyes , try opening both ben , it works

That we are not sinless, exposes the "fatal flaw" --- regeneration is resistible.

No way to argue against that.

cut to the chase ben , with your home spun philosphy you ought to be perfect and cease from all sin .... have you ? why not ben ?​

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Heymikey80:
The Greek tense actually says nothing about this, and purely indicates the old has passed away. Whatever "old" Paul is referring to has passed away.​

It is "second aorist", which does not indicate time. Besides, if Paul meant "passed away forever", then we would be sinless. See my previous couple of posts to Cygnus.

We still sin, because God is resistible, and we have the sin nature; though dead, we are required to walk in Christ that the sin nature stays dead.

Quote:
Unless you can come up with something old that "has passed away" and also "is passing away", then you're not going to get Greek to even accept your view.​

I cited Blueletterbible.org's explanation of "second aorist" --- and as I just did again, discussed the reality that we do still struggle with the sin nature.

It's not "gone forever"...

Quote:
But in any event the Greek "passed away" certainly doesn't support "pass-ING away".​

Then at least accept the principle that "passed away", does not mean it cannot come alive again if we are not diligent against sin and unbelief...

Quote:
As we kept pointing out and you kept ignoring, you missed quite a few excluded middles.

The logical equivalent of your argument was like this:

Paul says something greater than 3 is required.
Clearly here he's talking about 4. It's greater than 3.
But you're wrong because you think it's also true of 5. Obviously it could only be 4, because that's the only case Paul talked about.​

Not at all; the "things" in verse 14, are the same spiritually-revealed-things as in 13, 12, 11, 10, and 9; what you're denying is how 12 says "revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit".

"Received", denotes "belief". Thus, all the verse says is "natural men have not received the Spirit". That's all it says, Mike.

Quote:
We demonstrated more than one instance within the context in which Paul was talking about other "things", and was clearly relating them. They're the thrust of his point, of course they're related else he's talking gibberish.​

I don't accept the demonstrations were valid. There are no grounds to assert "spiritually-appraised-things" of verse 14, are not the same "spiritual things taught by the received Spirit" in the previous verses.

Quote:
No wonder the thread was locked. There was no way of getting around the errant declaration of victory. Now you're reproducing this error, dragging it into another thread. Why does anyone expect this thread to remain unlocked with so much hubris on it, right from the OP?​

Please see the previous posts; the "fatal flaw" has not been answered. We can, and do, sin; even when 1Jn3:5-10 says we cannot.

The only harmony is the reality that regeneration, must be "abided-in". And that completely conflicts the idea that it was sovereignly-monergistically-accomplished IN us, by God.

Look only at 2Pet1:5-10; can a man have BEEN "purified from sins", without regeneration? No.
Can a man now be IMPURE (ungodly), but still BE regenerated? No.

Thus the warning to us, that we be diligent about our calling and election, that the very gates of Heaven BE provided to us.

100% consistency, and 100% opposition to "sovereign-monergistic-regeneration". With respect, this cannot be overturned, it can only be called "hubris/error/false-doctrine".

If I'm wrong, please overturn it...

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Cygnus:
Acts 11:17

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? KJV

the gift of the Holy Spirit is not the same as regeneration Ben...​

You have yet to establish that men are regenerated BEFORE they receive the Spirit. Regeneration of us, is by the Holy Spirit who WAS POURED on us through Jesus our Savior --- per Titus 3:5-6. We've established that "poured", is "received-by-faith". You have not established "regeneration is by the NOT-YET poured Spirit".

Quote:
there is a mystery of regeneration that takes place before humans are aware of it , if you read in Acts that they through faith received the promised Holy Spirit , follow through your claim , did the Apostles only get born -again at Pentecost ?
No , and neither did the crowds who through faith received the Holy Spirit's outpouring .....​

So the Spirit indwells people who are NOT repentant and who are NOT "born again"? You don't see the problem with this?

Quote:
Consider the reason why The Holy Spirit was given after Christ was resurrected and timed to coincide with His ascension....... it has nothing to do with Regeneration , but empowerment and future guidance .​

Will you consider the reality that the Spirit's indwelling, and regeneration, must coexist? The Spirit cannot indwell an unregenerated person, and a person cannot be regenerated apart from the Spirit.

Quote:
You are stuck with a formula that insists faith is a prerequisite to regeneration , but although regeneration is necessary for salvation , faith is not required to be regenerate in fact many babies and idiots cannot have faith , because they lack understanding .​

Show me where "faith is not required for regeneration".

If "regeneration" equates to "made-alive", then "made-alive" is through faith. Eph2:5-8 is clear. And John5:40 has still not been adequately answered --- "coming to Jesus", only means "faith" --- and precedes "having life".

we are NOT born of faith , we are born of PROMISE , as are all the Elect. Just as Isaac was born of promise , so are we ;

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Gal 4:28


God promised Abraham UNCONDITIONALLY a Son , a son even from a dead womb , Abraham's faith did not in any sense make this so , Abraham received this promise by faith ... our birth into the Kingdom is a SOVEREIGN matter , the wind blows where it wills , so is it with everyone born of the Spirit , not of mans will or efforts , born-again according to God's outstanding riches of Grace . Deny God's Sovereignty in bearing children at His pleasure and you turn to the heresy of decisional regeneration or baptismal regeneration.


we are "justified by faith" , but never does scripture say we are regenerated by faith !


Jeff Patton writes ;

I believe that our current methods have put us in danger of putting too much credit for salvation into the decision of man, and not enough upon the grace and initiative of God.
Christian theologians throughout history have normally emphasized the inability of man concerning his ability to save himself, and the necessity of the intervention of God in salvation. Because of mans&#8217; fallen nature, it is necessary that God must intervene by graciously giving man the ability to believe and to respond. Modern Evangelicalism has taken the attitude that man can respond at any time they wish by a mere act of man&#8217;s will. This reduces the Gospel to a matter of a "decision" on the part of the individual, or a mere reciting of an incantation called the "Sinner&#8217;s Prayer." This current method of receiving salvation that is used in modern "Crusades" has substituted the conviction and witness of the Holy Spirit with group dynamics and professional salesmanship. You may wonder why I would say such a critical thing! It is because those who have followed up with respondents a year after their "decision" have found that the defection rate from Christianity among this group is a shocking 80-90%! The numbers touted to give legitimacy to these preachers and crusades sounds so impressive until we see they are creating more backsliders than believers! It should jolt us to see that more people were spiritually stillborn than born-again! This tragic rate of failure is due to the fact that many of these people were encouraged to respond to an altar in response to a sales pitch from man, and not from a call of God through a conviction of their sin from the Holy Spirit. Manipulation and salesmanship may yield large numbers of people coming forward and affirmative answers on prayer cards, but it cannot do what really counts, that is, "convert" the soul to Christ. This is solely the domain of the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere does the Bible tell unbelievers to make a decision for Christ. All of the appeals like "Choose you this day whom ye will serve" Joshua 24:15, are addressed to those who were in the family of Israel already, but were wavering on changing Gods. "God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other god&#8217;s." Verse 16. We are told in John 1:12 and 13 that "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God," and verse 13 clarifies that we do not give spiritual birth to ourselves, but our ability to receive Him is based upon, "Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." It is clear in Scripture that man on his own cannot and will not desire to be reconciled to God. Romans 3:11 tells us, "there is none that seeketh after God." We have been so thoroughlycorrupted through the fall of Adam that there is nothing within this infected nature of ours that will allow us to desire or seek a relationship with God. God must initiate the salvation process by reaching out to us first, convicting us, and convincing us of sin and of Jesus Christ. John 6:39 and 44 clearly state that "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent Me draw him," and we may add, this spake He of the Spirit." The timing of His conviction is determined by His will and not upon the will of a human vehicle like a preacher or a pastor.

http://www.eternalsecurity.us/decisional_regeneration.htm


we receive salvation by faith ; in contrast we are regenerated by a FREE decision of The Lord.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
we have been through this before , but here goes once again Ben , The Holy Spirit's work is NOT all the same , a recognition that God has no difficulty Regenerating a person dead in sins is not meant to lead to YOUR false conclusion that God therefore can never be resisted ..... your a Prize winner at these false Dichotomies!​

If we can "walk in sin", then what has been "regenerated"?

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er , no , see above , no Calvinist says all God's works are the same type. The Holy Spirit works a variety of ways.​

The question remains --- if we are "sovereignly regenerated", then why is God resistible that sin is still possible?

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Effectual Calling is stated over and over in the New Testament , all who are predestined He calls ; Justifies , etc ... Regeneration is also a Sovereign work of God the Holy Spirit , sanctification however is another matter , so is mortification , learn to distinguish things that differ , and your objections will do what they must , evaporate.​

Ahhh --- I was wondering where the "effectual calling" was in your doctrine. So it's in Rom8:28. Problem is, those "called", are "those who LOVE GOD". Fully aligning with Jesus' parable in Matt22:2-14, where "many are called but few are chosen".

Are there "two calls" in Jesus' parable? No.

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because you began with a false dichotomy which you still cannot see , a Christian is a two-part creature (flesh and Spirit) a unregenerate is a One-part creature (flesh) , only the Christian knows inward warfare ben ! So in future quit equating the one with the other .​

Can a Christian HAVE sin, but still ENTER Heaven? You seem to be saying "yes"; of course from Scripture I find an emphatic "no"...

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repeating yourself proves one thing , you're NOT listening..........​

One of us isn't...

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round and round ya go , no direction , just round ya go.....​

The direction is this --- is "regeneration" resistible, or not?

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No-one has ever denied diligence is needed , I am asking about guarantees and you blind side it and back yourself over a cliff .... oooops!​

Diligence in what? Please help me understand what you think Peter was asserting in 2:1:5-10. Was the once-saved man held out as a bad example, a warning, or not?

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what guarantees has the Christian been given that he will make it to heaven ben ?​

The only guarantee is based on "If you abide in Christ". See Jn15:2-6, Rom11:21-23, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9. If you can answer those, please do...

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Don't answer "none" ... you can do better than that!​

Another "dual responsibility" verse, is 2Tim1:12-14. God guards what we entrust, and we guard what God entrusts. What does God entrust, Cygnus?

And how does a "Predestinarian", know he's saved, until the moment he DIES and proves (by perseverance TO death) he WAS REALLY saved?

 

[Ben johnson]

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ahaha!!! here we have ben attempting to decide where he stands on the sin nature in Christian's , let us all know what you decide , because you are treading water at the moment!​

Paul very clearly addresses the concept of "in Christ" --- the position is fallible. See 2Cor13:5, and the parallel use of "adokimos" in 1Cor9:25-27. Those passages are rather inarguable...

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then explain what it means toi be JUSTIFIED by faith ben !

*this ought to be good *​

Hmmm; justified BY faith? Then if one ceases to believe, does he continue to be "justified"?

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cut to the chase ben , with your home spun philosphy you ought to be perfect and cease from all sin .... have you ? why not Ben ?​

Uhmmmm, because "regeneration is RESISTIBLE", and therefore NOT sovereignly-decided???

 

[cygnusx1]

Can a Christian HAVE sin, but still ENTER Heaven? You seem to be saying "yes"; of course from Scripture I find an emphatic "no"...

you seem to be saying you don't sin ........but we know you do so then you will never enter heaven ben , in fact by your own mouth you aren't even saved ..... my suggestion to you is get saved !

 

[cygnusx1]

Quote:
ahaha!!! here we have ben attempting to decide where he stands on the sin nature in Christian's , let us all know what you decide , because you are treading water at the moment!​

Paul very clearly addresses the concept of "in Christ" --- the position is fallible. See 2Cor13:5, and the parallel use of "adokimos" in 1Cor9:25-27. Those passages are rather inarguable...

Quote:
then explain what it means toi be JUSTIFIED by faith ben !

*this ought to be good *​

Hmmm; justified BY faith? Then if one ceases to believe, does he continue to be "justified"?

Those who are justified DON'T cease to believe ben !

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cut to the chase ben , with your home spun philosphy you ought to be perfect and cease from all sin .... have you ? why not Ben ?​

Uhmmmm, because "regeneration is RESISTIBLE", and therefore NOT sovereignly-decided???

I am sure you think that statement makes sense . shame , it doesn't!


Let us know when you have decided on the nature of a Christian ben !

 

[nobdysfool]

Seems Ben can't decide whether faith is simultaneous with the various parts of salvation, or the cause of them. Hence, his confusion about regeneration.

Here is what Ben has not, and will not answer: If Belief is simultaneous with repentance, justification, sanctification, regeneration, and adoption, as he claims, then faith cannot be "causal" to those things, because the effect cannot be simultaneous with its cause, nor can the cause be its own effect. If faith is equivalent to repentance, justification, sanctification, regeneration, and adoption, then it is the effect, along with those other things, and cannot be the cause. The cause can only be something or Someone other than the effect, i.e. God.

If, however, faith is the cause of repentance, justification, sanctification, regeneration and adoption, then it logically follows that faith precedes repentance, justification, sanctification, regeneration, and adoption, and there is a period of time where the following are true, no matter how short that time may be:

• There is a time when men believe but are not justified
• There is a time when men believe but are still children of the devil
• There is a time when men believe but are not born again
• There is a time when men believe but are not adopted sons of God
• There is a time when men believe but are not in Christ
• There is a time when men believe but are not elect
• There is a time when men believe but are not saved

As can clearly be seen, Ben has a problem in his theology. If faith is causal to salvation, then the above list applies, and he must explain how these things can be, because they flow logically from his contention that faith is "causal" to one's salvation. This presents a problem, because he cannot demonstrate how the unregenerate can believe savingly without the prior working of the Holy Spirit to convict them, which implies a regenerated heart.

If, however, faith is simultaneous to the other components of salvation, and equivalent and interchangeable, as Ben has said on occasion, then Monergism is logically upheld, seeing that the cause is not the effect (salvation), and no effect can exist without a cause. Ben's theology stands in contradiction to that fact.

This shows a fatal flaw at the heart of Responsible Grace. All of the attacks and bluff and bluster against Predestination, and "Sovereign Regeneration" (which begs the question, if God does not Sovereignly regenerate, then who does?) are a huge smokescreen to hide the fact that Responsible Grace has this huge, fatal flaw, which I have detailed above. The question is, will Ben address this?