"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
None of this make any sense to me.

First you say its by faith and not our strength - then you talk about being diligent.

You can't have it both ways -

Well - maybe you can - but the way my simple mind works - I surely can't. And if I have to be diligent to maintain my salvation then I'm doomed....​

Diligent in faith. It is the warning in 1Jn2:26-28 to "abide in Him". Jesus' words in Jn15:2-6. It aligns with Rom11:21-23. It is the warning in 2Jn1:7-9.

It is the rebuke in 2Cor13:5, to "test yourselves to see if you're in the faith; ...Christ is in you, unless you fail the test" --- the exact same test as Peter addressed in 2:1:5-10. As Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits".

All we do ("works" or "fruits"), is because of our hearts; and our hearts are because of Him-in-us, or not.

Thus, "faith", not "might".

"The Lord is my strength and my song, and has become my salvation." Psalm118:14

We do not maintain our salvation --- He does. But we are responsible for remaining close to Him. This is the directive in James 4:6-8, where he says "draw near to God and He will draw near to you." It is the meaning of 2Tim1:12-14, where God guards what we entrust, and we guard what God entrusts.

And it is the meaning of this:
"Beloved, building yourselves up in holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." Jude1:20-21

Yes Jude24 says God is ABLE to keep us from stumbling and to make us stand before God blameless and with great joy --- but He does not do that apart from our "building ourselves in holy faith" and "keeping ourselves in God's love". Context.

Against the concept of "merit-salvation", it is nothing of us and all of Him; but it is by faith, which is not merit --- it's receiving and abiding-in Him.

If "regeneration" was God's sovereign choice, then by nature we would abide.

If "regeneration" was through our faith, then we would find warning after warning to "abide in Him", and "to be diligent about our faith".

...we do find those warnings...

 

[AndOne]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
None of this make any sense to me.

First you say its by faith and not our strength - then you talk about being diligent.

You can't have it both ways -

Well - maybe you can - but the way my simple mind works - I surely can't. And if I have to be diligent to maintain my salvation then I'm doomed....
​

Diligent in faith. It is the warning in 1Jn2:26-28 to "abide in Him". Jesus' words in Jn15:2-6. It aligns with Rom11:21-23. It is the warning in 2Jn1:7-9.

It is the rebuke in 2Cor13:5, to "test yourselves to see if you're in the faith; ...Christ is in you, unless you fail the test" --- the exact same test as Peter addressed in 2:1:5-10. As Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits".

All we do ("works" or "fruits"), is because of our hearts; and our hearts are because of Him-in-us, or not.

Thus, "faith", not "might".

"The Lord is my strength and my song, and has become my salvation." Psalm118:14

We do not maintain our salvation --- He does. But we are responsible for remaining close to Him. This is the directive in James 4:6-8, where he says "draw near to God and He will draw near to you." It is the meaning of 2Tim1:12-14, where God guards what we entrust, and we guard what God entrusts.

And it is the meaning of this:
"Beloved, building yourselves up in holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." Jude1:20-21

Yes Jude24 says God is ABLE to keep us from stumbling and to make us stand before God blameless and with great joy --- but He does not do that apart from our "building ourselves in holy faith" and "keeping ourselves in God's love". Context.

Against the concept of "merit-salvation", it is nothing of us and all of Him; but it is by faith, which is not merit --- it's receiving and abiding-in Him.

If "regeneration" was God's sovereign choice, then by nature we would abide.

If "regeneration" was through our faith, then we would find warning after warning to "abide in Him", and "to be diligent about our faith".

...we do find those warnings...

Again - you post in conflicting terms. You say one thing and then another.

As for me - my FAITH is in the Lord Jesus to save me - not in my works to save me or KEEP me saved.

 

[AndOne]

We do not maintain our salvation --- He does.

+

But we are responsible for remaining close to Him.

= works

 

[cygnusx1]

The only explanation, is that "regeneration" is resistible. It could not be if it was God's decision...

false dichotomy , Regeneration is ONLY the first part of salvation , it does not equate with the rest .

Scripture affirms Monergistic Regeneration and a Synergistic outworking of the rest.

ben believes that ONLY after we obey , we are spiritually made alive , he has dead men acting like Christians , the dividing line has been fudged .


Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Notice dear reader that not only have we been raised with Christ PRIOR to faith , but we have been seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus ; few even can grasp how , much less make it happen by their "faith".


If we are regenerated by an act of our faith then there ought to be a command for it ........... where is such a command friends ? you will NEVER find it!

also there has to be a command to believe that we are seated in heavenly places , otherwise that too cannot be true , according to IRE-responsible grace!

 

[cygnusx1]

How helpless guilty nature lies,​

Unconscious of its load!​

The heart, unchanged can never rise​

To happiness and God.


​

The will perverse, the passions blind,​

In paths of ruin stray;​

Reason, debased, can never find​

The safe, the narrow way.


​

Can aught, beneath a power divine,​

The stubborn will subdue?​

Tis Thine, almighty Saviour, Thine,​

To form the heart anew.


​

O change these wretched hearts of ours,​

And give them life divine!​

Then shall our passions and our powers,​

Almighty Lord, be Thine!

​

Isaac Watts​

​

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
As for me - my FAITH is in the Lord Jesus to save me - not in my works to save me or KEEP me saved.​

We may be more in agreement than not. I agree, and my faith is also in the Lord Jesus to save me. And not by works.

What do you think about Jude1:20-21?

Quote:
We do not maintain our salvation --- He does.
+
But we are responsible for remaining close to Him.
= works​

You say "I have faith in Jesus to save me". Is your faith your decision, or His?

There are those who think that "Jesus' faith IN us, is what saves us". This conflicts verses like, "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:9

This aligns with what we just discussed in Jude, "Keep yourselves in the love of God, build yourselves in holy faith".

It's not Jesus' faith in us --- else on what will we be judged? Faith saves, unbelief condemns. "Believe", is an act --- but is not our work. If it was GOD who believed FOR us ("Christ's faith in us"), then believing would not be called "wise", nor would unbelief be called "foolish". Matt7:24-27

RE "faith is a work" --- per John6:26-28, the work of God is that we believe --- but it's a work that WE WORK.

Jhn 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Clearly stated, "WORK the work of God, which is believe"...

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
Notice dear reader that not only have we been raised with Christ PRIOR to faith , but we have been seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus ; few even can grasp how , much less make it happen by their "faith".​

Cygnus, please re-quote that, and include verse 8. The phrase "by grace have you been saved" (verse 5), cannot be separated from verse 8 ("by grace have you been saved through faith".)

We are made alive through faith.

Not before.

Quote:
If we are regenerated by an act of our faith then there ought to be a command for it ........... where is such a command friends ? you will NEVER find it! ​

Mar 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

 

[AndOne]

We may be more in agreement than not. I agree, and my faith is also in the Lord Jesus to save me. And not by works.
​

Based on the inconsistencies you have written here I can honestly say I don't believe you. You may have faith in Christ to save you - but you have explicity stated over and over again that it is your responsibility to maintain your own salvation by remaining close to God, not sinning, etc - which is in the strictest sense of the term - works.

All works done post salvation are done as a result of - not a means to maintain. Even though you think differently - I believe this to be how it is in your case (and many others) - which is how I can so easily and readily embrace you as brothers. It's NOT because I agree with you on this.
​

You say "I have faith in Jesus to save me". Is your faith your decision, or His?

The question is really irrelavant to the topic. Of course I believe the decision was mine - BUT I could not have made it had God not enabled my spirit and heart to be able to do so. I know I've said this before.

This aligns with what we just discussed in Jude, "Keep yourselves in the love of God, build yourselves in holy faith".

This as all the "admonishment" verses that you guys mention does not give an end result of loosing salvation or ending up in hell. The verses are meant to encourage and edify. They are talking about Christians doing the right thing because we are saved.

 

[nobdysfool]

I notice that several posts I have made in the last 2 days have been completely ignored. Not a peep in reply to them. Why? Could it be that they cannot be answered, because they clearly highlight and expose several serious errors, false statements, misquoted and made-up statements, and a serious examination of fundamental flaws in "Responsible Grace" theology, and its proponent's methods?

Inquiring minds would like to know.....

 

[AndOne]

I notice that several posts I have made in the last 2 days have been completely ignored. Not a peep in reply to them. Why? Could it be that they cannot be answered, because they clearly highlight and expose several serious errors, false statements, misquoted and made-up statements, and a serious examination of fundamental flaws in "Responsible Grace" theology, and its proponent's methods?

Inquiring minds would like to know.....

Well I don't respond to AWESOME POSTS!!!

j/k - I know its not directed to me.... But they are awesome.... if not sweeeet....

 

[nobdysfool]

Well I don't respond to AWESOME POSTS!!!

j/k - I know its not directed to me.... But they are awesome.... if not sweeeet....

To God be the Glory. It's His word, and His Salvation.

 

[AndOne]

To God be the Glory. It's His word, and His Salvation.

You got it brother - absolutely....

(I was just being silly)

 

[cygnusx1]

Radical Regeneration (Who controls the New Birth?)

• John 3:1-11

"Who controls the new birth? Does man initiate the new birth by his baptism? Does man initiate the new birth by his decision to follow Jesus? Or does God radically change the sinners heart so that he cries out in faith and repentance? This is a Sunday morning defense of biblical Monergism and a call to reject modern decisional regeneration with all of it's gimmicks."

Matt Masiewicz
"This sermon actually made a family leave our fellowship. I don't know what is so offensive about saying that God saves sovereignly."

to hear this sermon go here .

 

[heymikey80]

Quoted by Heymikey80:
The Greek tense actually says nothing about this, and purely indicates the old has passed away. Whatever "old" Paul is referring to has passed away.​

It is "second aorist", which does not indicate time. Besides, if Paul meant "passed away forever", then we would be sinless. See my previous couple of posts to Cygnus.

We still sin, because God is resistible, and we have the sin nature; though dead, we are required to walk in Christ that the sin nature stays dead.

Quote:
Unless you can come up with something old that "has passed away" and also "is passing away", then you're not going to get Greek to even accept your view.​

I cited Blueletterbible.org's explanation of "second aorist" --- and as I just did again, discussed the reality that we do still struggle with the sin nature.

It's not "gone forever"...

Quote:
But in any event the Greek "passed away" certainly doesn't support "pass-ING away".​

Then at least accept the principle that "passed away", does not mean it cannot come alive again if we are not diligent against sin and unbelief...

Ben, you didn't say that, what you said was it was "pass-ING away".

I'm not going to argue with you about another proposal for how Greek works.

It's simply aorist tense, meaning it's punctiliar in time. the event happens -- "passed away" -- and all things become new. No "pass-ING away".

Don't try to reintroduce the error, and that'll be fine. It's not "pass-ING away". It's "pass away", and it's either happened or it's gonna happen.

If you think god would resurrect your sinful nature, whatever. I don't know a thing in Scripture that would help you carry that. Are you speculating or presenting some entrenched doctrine?

Quote:
As we kept pointing out and you kept ignoring, you missed quite a few excluded middles.

The logical equivalent of your argument was like this:

Paul says something greater than 3 is required.
Clearly here he's talking about 4. It's greater than 3.
But you're wrong because you think it's also true of 5. Obviously it could only be 4, because that's the only case Paul talked about.​

Not at all; the "things" in verse 14, are the same spiritually-revealed-things as in 13, 12, 11, 10, and 9; what you're denying is how 12 says "revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit".

Quite at all. They're a much wider class of things than you're willing to agree to. As we pointed out, 1 Cor 1:30, the whole of Jesus Christ is "Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God". The understanding of the Gospel is introduced as precisely one of these "things": "but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" 1 Cor 2:7-8

"Received", denotes "belief". Thus, all the verse says is "natural men have not received the Spirit". That's all it says, Mike.

Nope. Your theology merges these two things.

Quote:
We demonstrated more than one instance within the context in which Paul was talking about other "things", and was clearly relating them. They're the thrust of his point, of course they're related else he's talking gibberish.​

I don't accept the demonstrations were valid. There are no grounds to assert "spiritually-appraised-things" of verse 14, are not the same "spiritual things taught by the received Spirit" in the previous verses.

You may not accept them, but they're valid. Your acceptance does not dictate the truth of their validity. You are not the arbiter of truth, Ben.

Quote:
No wonder the thread was locked. There was no way of getting around the errant declaration of victory. Now you're reproducing this error, dragging it into another thread. Why does anyone expect this thread to remain unlocked with so much hubris on it, right from the OP?​

Please see the previous posts; the "fatal flaw" has not been answered. We can, and do, sin; even when 1Jn3:5-10 says we cannot.

The Present Indicative case in Greek is primarily a continuing case. That's why the ESV has stopped translating this so woodenly in English present tense, and translated the verbs as continuances:

You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

And so John's being practical. We find sin in our lives and we make a practice of stopping it. But as 1 John 1:8-10 so eloquently puts it, we're not free of sin. He never meant to say so in 1 John 1:8-10. He certainly didn't contradict himself to say so in 1 John 3:5-10. Don't make him say it. He didn't say it.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 Jn 1:8-10
​

 

[heymikey80]

Please see the previous posts; the "fatal flaw" has not been answered. We can, and do, sin; even when 1Jn3:5-10 says we cannot.

OK, so you missed the point about Greek present tense naturally being a continuing tense when no other indicators are present.

So 1 Jn 3:5-10 was a red herring, appearing due to traditional English translation.

The only harmony is the reality that regeneration, must be "abided-in". And that completely conflicts the idea that it was sovereignly-monergistically-accomplished IN us, by God.

Clearly there's another harmony, one that absorbs everything John is saying. John's simply pointing out the direction of those who are saved is one of increasingly removing sin; of laying aside every weight; of working out in our lives what is indeed God working within us. If all this sounds familiar, it should. It's Hebrews 12, it's Philippians 1.

You know. Consistency with all Scripture. It's a beautiful thing.

Look only at 2Pet1:5-10; can a man have BEEN "purified from sins", without regeneration? No.

The verses point out the "unproductive"ness and "forgetful"ness omaong those who neglect the "added" attributes of "godly character" and its disciplines to "faith". They say what you're not saying. They call out, "assure"ance, these verses say so explicitly.

If you rephrase what Peter actually said, you make it "how to be saved / how to stay saved". Yeah, I've seen you do that to this passage. But that would be removing words from Scripture. So Calvinism leaves them in, and reaches the meaning that Peter actually wrote. It's about assurance. It says so.

Can a man now be IMPURE (ungodly), but still BE regenerated? No.

ROFL! Yes.

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4
​

And since you demand that indwelling be regeneration, I merely point it out. Judas was given the Spirit, Who gave Judas power over the spirits. So your theology has an inconsistency here.

Regeneration is not glorification. Glorification is the endpoint of regeneration, "we will be like Him". New Birth is a starting point, "What's born of spirit is spirit". Purification is what happens in between.

Thus the warning to us, that we be diligent about our calling and election, that the very gates of Heaven BE provided to us.

The missing Scripture word is "richly". The question is whether we can be assured of our wealth as sons as long as we're living as beggars with a crust.

This is a serious blind spot in your theology, Ben: the neglect of words that are clearly present in the Scriptures it's citing; the lumping of words together that aren't synonyms; the promotions of distinctions into differences. And of course, the demand that everything feed the "how to be saved" side of the equation, and none of it feed the "now that you're saved" side of the equation.

It's about a 30%. If the theology factored all this into its view, and then took into account the meanings of dozens of other passages that actually address the questions directly, then the theology would be accurate.

And then it'd be Calvinism.

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by Cygnus:
we have been through this before , but here goes once again Ben , The Holy Spirit's work is NOT all the same , a recognition that God has no difficulty Regenerating a person dead in sins is not meant to lead to YOUR false conclusion that God therefore can never be resisted ..... your a Prize winner at these false Dichotomies!​

If we can "walk in sin", then what has been "regenerated"?

You throw out a phrase without definition. What exactly do you mean by "walk in sin". It's too broad a term to have any meaning in the discussion.

What has been regenerated is obvious, it is the man's spirit, his heart. Regeneration is the beginning of the walk, not its end.

Quote:
er , no , see above , no Calvinist says all God's works are the same type. The Holy Spirit works a variety of ways.​

The question remains --- if we are "sovereignly regenerated", then why is God resistible that sin is still possible?

Your definition of regeneration is the fault in your view. Regeneration does not equal perfection or sinlessness. There is no scripture that would even begin to support such an absurd notion. And this constant bleating about God being resistible is a red herring.

The reality is, your doctrine requires that to be so. In reality, you are robbing God of His Sovereignty, His Power, and His absolute prerogative to do with His Creation as seems good to Him.

Quote:
Effectual Calling is stated over and over in the New Testament , all who are predestined He calls ; Justifies , etc ... Regeneration is also a Sovereign work of God the Holy Spirit , sanctification however is another matter , so is mortification , learn to distinguish things that differ , and your objections will do what they must , evaporate.​

Ahhh --- I was wondering where the "effectual calling" was in your doctrine. So it's in Rom8:28. Problem is, those "called", are "those who LOVE GOD". Fully aligning with Jesus' parable in Matt22:2-14, where "many are called but few are chosen".

Are there "two calls" in Jesus' parable? No.

Those called are not called because they already love God. That's absurd! We love Him because He FIRST loved us. Those who love God are those who have been called by Him, and His love shed abroad in their hearts by the actions of the Holy Spirit.

You once again avoid what was actually said, and try to skew the discussion down a side trail. You have not answered what Cygnus posted.

You reject the effectual call because in your world, God cannot be Sovereign over men. In your world, men call the shots. God must plead, cajole, beg, and hope that men will decide to come to Him. Contrast that with Jesus rebuking the people for their unbelief. Contrast that with Jesus driving the money-changers out of the Temple with a whip, overturning the tables, scattering money and other things everywhere. Contrast that with Jesus rebuking and calling out the Pharisees and Scribes for their religiosity, their duplicity, and their corruption. Was He trying to get them to come to Him and be saved? NO! He was pronouncing judgment on them. THAT'S the Sovereign God of Scripture, not the plastic bobblehead milque-toast, pretty-boy "Jeezzuzzz" that most churches teach.

Quote:
because you began with a false dichotomy which you still cannot see , a Christian is a two-part creature (flesh and Spirit) a unregenerate is a One-part creature (flesh) , only the Christian knows inward warfare ben ! So in future quit equating the one with the other .​

Can a Christian HAVE sin, but still ENTER Heaven? You seem to be saying "yes"; of course from Scripture I find an emphatic "no"...

Then you deny that their sins have been forgiven, unless they do something more in addition to what Christ did in bearing the penalty for them.

Question: Are all the sins of a Believer forgiven?

Judicially, the Christian is freed from sin. Their sins are not counted against them. So in that sense a Christian has no sin that God will judge him for. Or do you not understand what Christ did, and how it is applied to the Believer? Have you forgotten, in your haste to oppose Calvinists at every point, no matter what, in direct contradiction to your stated desire that we all deal respectfully and graciously with each other?

Quote:
repeating yourself proves one thing , you're NOT listening..........​

One of us isn't...

It's pretty clear that it's you who isn't listening, and avoiding the tough questions.

Quote:
round and round ya go , no direction , just round ya go.....​

The direction is this --- is "regeneration" resistible, or not?

False question. Regeneration is a sovereign act of God, and is therefore not resistible. It's absurd to think otherwise. You certainly cannot regenerate your self, nor did you, so your declarations that "sovereign regeneration is wrong" are themselves wrong.

If God did not, by an act of His Sovereign Will, regenerate you, then who did?

Quote:
No-one has ever denied diligence is needed , I am asking about guarantees and you blind side it and back yourself over a cliff .... oooops!​

Diligence in what? Please help me understand what you think Peter was asserting in 2:1:5-10. Was the once-saved man held out as a bad example, a warning, or not?

You're trying to frame the entire argument as either/or, black/white, anything but what scripture actually says.

2 Peter 2:9 is the answer, and it clearly shows that it is God who preserves us, and not our own efforts exclusively, like you falsely teach.

2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
​

Quote:​

what guarantees has the Christian been given that he will make it to heaven ben ?​

The only guarantee is based on "If you abide in Christ". See Jn15:2-6, Rom11:21-23, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9. If you can answer those, please do...

How about these?

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
​

Rom 8:31-39 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (32) He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? (33) Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (34) Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. (35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? (36) As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." (37) No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. (38) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Col 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, (14) in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
​

Quote:
​

Don't answer "none" ... you can do better than that!​

Another "dual responsibility" verse, is 2Tim1:12-14. God guards what we entrust, and we guard what God entrusts. What does God entrust, Cygnus?

And how do we guard what God entrusts? Is it not by the power and leading of the Holy Spirit? Your doctrine teaches that it is all by our power, our decision, our effort. Your doctrine is the very definition of the "White Knuckle Club".

And how does a "Predestinarian", know he's saved, until the moment he DIES and proves (by perseverance TO death) he WAS REALLY saved?

You just love to invent stupid terms, don't you? We Calvinists know we are saved, by the promises of scripture, which we believe, and the witness of the Spirit inside us.

The real question is, how do you know you are saved, Ben? Have you repented of every last sin you've committed? Is you slate clean? Really? Are you trusting in your own efforts to maintain and retain your salvation, or are you resting in Him? Do you believe that He is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you blamelss before Him?

Be honest.

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by Jeff Patton:
I believe that our current methods have put us in danger of putting too much credit for salvation into the decision of man, and not enough upon the grace and initiative of God.
Christian theologians throughout history have normally emphasized the inability of man concerning his ability to save himself, and the necessity of the intervention of God in salvation. Because of mans’ fallen nature, it is necessary that God must intervene by graciously giving man the ability to believe and to respond.​

Scriptural basis? (None.)

On the contrary. Absolutely true. He has perfectly described your false doctrines, Ben. He's got your number.

Quote:
Modern Evangelicalism has taken the attitude that man can respond at any time they wish by a mere act of man’s will. This reduces the Gospel to a matter of a "decision" on the part of the individual, or a mere reciting of an incantation called the "Sinner’s Prayer."​

Not at all; Christ must be truly received, as an indwelling presence --- so too the Spirit. Yet, it is by faith.

Yet unless the Holy Spirit is pre-eminent and active, nothing will happen. The Spirit is not received at man's behest, it is received when He Himself has brought conviction to the man's heart, and quickened him to receive the Word which will save his soul. Patton's words are true, too many churches preach the incantation of the Sinner's Prayer as the means by which people obtain salvation.

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This current method of receiving salvation that is used in modern "Crusades" has substituted the conviction and witness of the Holy Spirit with group dynamics and professional salesmanship. You may wonder why I would say such a critical thing! It is because those who have followed up with respondents a year after their "decision" have found that the defection rate from Christianity among this group is a shocking 80-90%! The numbers touted to give legitimacy to these preachers and crusades sounds so impressive until we see they are creating more backsliders than believers! It should jolt us to see that more people were spiritually stillborn than born-again! This tragic rate of failure is due to the fact that many of these people were encouraged to respond to an altar in response to a sales pitch from man, and not from a call of God through a conviction of their sin from the Holy Spirit.​

And yet in Acts2:37, they did respond to "Salesman Peter".

And who do you suppose was behind that, and inspired Peter's words, Ben??? What we see in Acts 2:37 is the Holy Spirit in action, speaking the Word of God through Peter to those who were there. Peter was no "salesman". He was the oracle of God at that moment, and it was the Holy Spirit who quickened the Word to the hearers, not Peter and his "eloquence". .

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Manipulation and salesmanship may yield large numbers of people coming forward and affirmative answers on prayer cards, but it cannot do what really counts, that is, "convert" the soul to Christ. This is solely the domain of the Holy Spirit.​

The RECEIVED Spirit?

Yes.

The Holy Spirit does not have to indwell to quicken, regenerate, enlighten, reveal, or influence anyone. Conversion is what prepares the person to be indwelt. Salvation is of the Lord. You need to learn what that means, Ben, because you clearly don't know.

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Nowhere does the Bible tell unbelievers to make a decision for Christ. All of the appeals like "Choose you this day whom ye will serve" Joshua 24:15, are addressed to those who were in the family of Israel already, but were wavering on changing Gods.​

Really? And if they could NOT "forsake God", then why the verse?

Still trying to make an escape hatch for yourself, aren't you? Patton is right. The "choose ye" verses are spoken to those who are already God's people, not to the world at large, or to heathens.

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"God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods." Verse 16.​

So don't worry, God will FORBID us to ever be deceived away from belief in Him? How should we understand Col2:6-8???

cognitive dissonance. You seem unable to read something without twisting it and distorting it in your mind, and then spitting our some ridiculously contorted, almost unrecognizable version of what was said. Look at that verse as a prayer.

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We are told in John 1:12 and 13 that "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God," and verse 13 clarifies that we do not give spiritual birth to ourselves, but our ability to receive Him is based upon, "Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God."​

Noooo, it says nothing about our "ability to receive Him". Verse 13 speaks of the "begottenness", verse 12 speaks about "BECOMING begotten". Begottenness is the gift (all of God and nothing of men), becoming begotten is by men's believing and receiving Christ.

Jeff is adding his own words to Scripture.

No he did not. This phrase completely ruins your contention. Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God."

Your entire false doctrine is ruined by that phrase.

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It is clear in Scripture that man on his own cannot and will not desire to be reconciled to God. Romans 3:11 tells us, "there is none that seeketh after God."​

What does 3:26 say? Context.

Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
​

This does not speak to anyone's ability to believe, Ben. All it says is that God is Just, and He justifies Believers. It's really a self-evident statement, kind of like "water is wet, and those who are in it are wetted by it."

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We have been so thoroughly corrupted through the fall of Adam that there is nothing within this infected nature of ours that will allow us to desire or seek a relationship with God. God must initiate the salvation process by reaching out to us first, convicting us, and convincing us of sin and of Jesus Christ. John 6:39 and 44 clearly state that "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent Me draw him,"​

And nowhere does Scripture assert anyone who is NOT called. We need only to look at Matt22:2-14, to which Calvinists can only say "We cannot make too much of only a parable".

This in the face of Jesus' words: "The kingdom of God is LIKE..."

Parables are not the foundation of doctrine, Ben. Are you seriously going to tell us that 7th century Native Americans, or Pacific Islanders were called and equally able to believe and receive Christ as those in Europe, or the Roman Empire? How about China in the 1st Century? Or the entire world outside of Israel before Christ?

Ben, Scripture clearly shows that some are vessels of wrath created for destruction, and some are ordained to that end. God is Just in leaving anyone in their sins, if he chooses to. He doesn't "owe" them anything.

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and we may add, this spake He of the Spirit." The timing of His conviction is determined by His will and not upon the will of a human vehicle like a preacher or a pastor.

http://www.eternalsecurity.us/decisi...generation.htm​

Completely unsupported in Scripture.

He supported what he said with scripture, and also with common sense.

Look back at the last 6-8 posts I've made; I look forward to reading refutations of what I've fully and meticulously supported with Scripture.

Don't break your arm, patting yourself on the back. We have been deconstructing your false doctrines for some time now. You are showing more and more that you are losing the debate, and your doctrines are crumbling and crashing down around you, yet you're like the Monty Python knight, claiming, "It's only a flesh wound! I'll be right as rain in the morning!"

If this wasn't so serious, it would actually be comical.

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Cygnus:
Notice dear reader that not only have we been raised with Christ PRIOR to faith , but we have been seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus ; few even can grasp how , much less make it happen by their "faith".​

Cygnus, please re-quote that, and include verse 8. The phrase "by grace have you been saved" (verse 5), cannot be separated from verse 8 ("by grace have you been saved through faith".)

We are made alive through faith.

prove it !

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If we are regenerated by an act of our faith then there ought to be a command for it ........... where is such a command friends ? you will NEVER find it! ​

Mar 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

try to make sense ben .....

 

[Rightglory]

nobdysfool,

Don't break your arm, patting yourself on the back. We have been deconstructing your false doctrines for some time now. You are showing more and more that you are losing the debate, and your doctrines are crumbling and crashing down around you, yet you're like the Monty Python knight, claiming, "It's only a flesh wound! I'll be right as rain in the morning!"
If this wasn't so serious, it would actually be comical.

But the real point is that neither is desconstructing anything. Both of you are simply supporting your own personal interpretation. You are still arguing from totally different paradigms. All it has done is prolonged the 400 year old statemate.

 

[nobdysfool]

nobdysfool,



But the real point is that neither is desconstructing anything. Both of you are simply supporting your own personal interpretation. You are still arguing from totally different paradigms. All it has done is prolonged the 400 year old statemate.

RG, you are entitled to your opinion. You are not offering anything of help to the conversation. Please be kind enough to not muddy the waters. The truth is, in a very real sense, you don't have a dog in this hunt.

Thanks, but we'll pass.