"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

[cygnusx1]

Quote:
what guarantees has the Christian been given that he will make it to heaven ben ?​

The only guarantee is based on "If you abide in Christ". See Jn15:2-6, Rom11:21-23, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9. If you can answer those, please do...

and what guarantees are there that the Christian will abide in Christ and make it into heaven ben ?

don't reply none ........ you must be able to see beyond a narrow earthly simplistic self-centered view , surely .............

​

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Cygnus:
we have been through this before , but here goes once again Ben , The Holy Spirit's work is NOT all the same , a recognition that God has no difficulty Regenerating a person dead in sins is not meant to lead to YOUR false conclusion that God therefore can never be resisted ..... your a Prize winner at these false Dichotomies!​

If we can "walk in sin", then what has been "regenerated"?

Christians don't walk in sin , they fall into it ! (Rom6-8)
Our Spirit has been Regenerated ben , the flesh remains unchanged ... with it's earthly desires , that is what Mortification is all about .

[/quote]

Quote:
er , no , see above , no Calvinist says all God's works are the same type. The Holy Spirit works a variety of ways.​

The question remains --- if we are "sovereignly regenerated", then why is God resistible that sin is still possible?[/quote]


Because God works in a varied way , I told you the truth but you cannot receive it.

 

[nobdysfool]

Let's be clear about one thing, the "old nature" that is referred to is the corrupted human body that we still inhabit. We are new men living for a time in the old man's body. We have been crucified with Christ and we arose with Christ, and by that resurrection, we have been moved beyond the penalty for sin, that penalty having been paid for us.

We are to learn obedience by the things which we suffer, just as Christ did. For us, that includes learning to resist the sin of our fleshly lusts, to mortify the deeds of our bodies, to buffet our bodies, as Paul said. We will also suffer outwardly the persecution for our faith, the rejection of the world, etc. Our salvation is secure in Christ, and our testing is in the here and now. When we receive our glorified incorruptible bodies at Christ's Second Coming, we will be removed from the presence and possibility of sin.

As someone else said,

I was saved from the penalty of sin,

I am being saved from the power of sin,

and I will be saved from the presence of sin.

It is God's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes.....

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Jeff Patton:
I believe that our current methods have put us in danger of putting too much credit for salvation into the decision of man, and not enough upon the grace and initiative of God.
Christian theologians throughout history have normally emphasized the inability of man concerning his ability to save himself, and the necessity of the intervention of God in salvation. Because of mans’ fallen nature, it is necessary that God must intervene by graciously giving man the ability to believe and to respond.​

Scriptural basis? (None.)

Quote:
Modern Evangelicalism has taken the attitude that man can respond at any time they wish by a mere act of man’s will. This reduces the Gospel to a matter of a "decision" on the part of the individual, or a mere reciting of an incantation called the "Sinner’s Prayer."​

Not at all; Christ must be truly received, as an indwelling presence --- so too the Spirit. Yet, it is by faith.

Quote:
This current method of receiving salvation that is used in modern "Crusades" has substituted the conviction and witness of the Holy Spirit with group dynamics and professional salesmanship. You may wonder why I would say such a critical thing! It is because those who have followed up with respondents a year after their "decision" have found that the defection rate from Christianity among this group is a shocking 80-90%! The numbers touted to give legitimacy to these preachers and crusades sounds so impressive until we see they are creating more backsliders than believers! It should jolt us to see that more people were spiritually stillborn than born-again! This tragic rate of failure is due to the fact that many of these people were encouraged to respond to an altar in response to a sales pitch from man, and not from a call of God through a conviction of their sin from the Holy Spirit.​

And yet in Acts2:37, they did respond to "Salesman Peter".

Quote:
Manipulation and salesmanship may yield large numbers of people coming forward and affirmative answers on prayer cards, but it cannot do what really counts, that is, "convert" the soul to Christ. This is solely the domain of the Holy Spirit.​

The RECEIVED Spirit?

Yes.

Quote:
Nowhere does the Bible tell unbelievers to make a decision for Christ. All of the appeals like "Choose you this day whom ye will serve" Joshua 24:15, are addressed to those who were in the family of Israel already, but were wavering on changing Gods.​

Really? And if they could NOT "forsake God", then why the verse?

Quote:
"God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods." Verse 16.​

So don't worry, God will FORBID us to ever be deceived away from belief in Him? How should we understand Col2:6-8???

Quote:
We are told in John 1:12 and 13 that "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God," and verse 13 clarifies that we do not give spiritual birth to ourselves, but our ability to receive Him is based upon, "Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God."​

Noooo, it says nothing about our "ability to receive Him". Verse 13 speaks of the "begottenness", verse 12 speaks about "BECOMING begotten". Begottenness is the gift (all of God and nothing of men), becoming begotten is by men's believing and receiving Christ.

Jeff is adding his own words to Scripture.

Quote:
It is clear in Scripture that man on his own cannot and will not desire to be reconciled to God. Romans 3:11 tells us, "there is none that seeketh after God."​

What does 3:26 say? Context.

Quote:
We have been so thoroughly corrupted through the fall of Adam that there is nothing within this infected nature of ours that will allow us to desire or seek a relationship with God. God must initiate the salvation process by reaching out to us first, convicting us, and convincing us of sin and of Jesus Christ. John 6:39 and 44 clearly state that "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent Me draw him,"​

And nowhere does Scripture assert anyone who is NOT called. We need only to look at Matt22:2-14, to which Calvinists can only say "We cannot make too much of only a parable".

This in the face of Jesus' words: "The kingdom of God is LIKE..."

Quote:
and we may add, this spake He of the Spirit." The timing of His conviction is determined by His will and not upon the will of a human vehicle like a preacher or a pastor.

http://www.eternalsecurity.us/decisi...generation.htm​

Completely unsupported in Scripture.

Look back at the last 6-8 posts I've made; I look forward to reading refutations of what I've fully and meticulously supported with Scripture.

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by Jeff Patton:
I believe that our current methods have put us in danger of putting too much credit for salvation into the decision of man, and not enough upon the grace and initiative of God.
Christian theologians throughout history have normally emphasized the inability of man concerning his ability to save himself, and the necessity of the intervention of God in salvation. Because of mans’ fallen nature, it is necessary that God must intervene by graciously giving man the ability to believe and to respond.​

Scriptural basis? (None.)

Quote:
Modern Evangelicalism has taken the attitude that man can respond at any time they wish by a mere act of man’s will. This reduces the Gospel to a matter of a "decision" on the part of the individual, or a mere reciting of an incantation called the "Sinner’s Prayer."​

Not at all; Christ must be truly received, as an indwelling presence --- so too the Spirit. Yet, it is by faith.

Quote:
This current method of receiving salvation that is used in modern "Crusades" has substituted the conviction and witness of the Holy Spirit with group dynamics and professional salesmanship. You may wonder why I would say such a critical thing! It is because those who have followed up with respondents a year after their "decision" have found that the defection rate from Christianity among this group is a shocking 80-90%! The numbers touted to give legitimacy to these preachers and crusades sounds so impressive until we see they are creating more backsliders than believers! It should jolt us to see that more people were spiritually stillborn than born-again! This tragic rate of failure is due to the fact that many of these people were encouraged to respond to an altar in response to a sales pitch from man, and not from a call of God through a conviction of their sin from the Holy Spirit.​

And yet in Acts2:37, they did respond to "Salesman Peter".

Quote:
Manipulation and salesmanship may yield large numbers of people coming forward and affirmative answers on prayer cards, but it cannot do what really counts, that is, "convert" the soul to Christ. This is solely the domain of the Holy Spirit.​

The RECEIVED Spirit?

Yes.

Quote:
Nowhere does the Bible tell unbelievers to make a decision for Christ. All of the appeals like "Choose you this day whom ye will serve" Joshua 24:15, are addressed to those who were in the family of Israel already, but were wavering on changing Gods.​

Really? And if they could NOT "forsake God", then why the verse?

Quote:
"God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods." Verse 16.​

So don't worry, God will FORBID us to ever be deceived away from belief in Him? How should we understand Col2:6-8???

Quote:
We are told in John 1:12 and 13 that "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God," and verse 13 clarifies that we do not give spiritual birth to ourselves, but our ability to receive Him is based upon, "Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God."​

Noooo, it says nothing about our "ability to receive Him". Verse 13 speaks of the "begottenness", verse 12 speaks about "BECOMING begotten". Begottenness is the gift (all of God and nothing of men), becoming begotten is by men's believing and receiving Christ.

Jeff is adding his own words to Scripture.

Quote:
It is clear in Scripture that man on his own cannot and will not desire to be reconciled to God. Romans 3:11 tells us, "there is none that seeketh after God."​

What does 3:26 say? Context.

Quote:
We have been so thoroughly corrupted through the fall of Adam that there is nothing within this infected nature of ours that will allow us to desire or seek a relationship with God. God must initiate the salvation process by reaching out to us first, convicting us, and convincing us of sin and of Jesus Christ. John 6:39 and 44 clearly state that "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent Me draw him,"​

And nowhere does Scripture assert anyone who is NOT called. We need only to look at Matt22:2-14, to which Calvinists can only say "We cannot make too much of only a parable".

This in the face of Jesus' words: "The kingdom of God is LIKE..."

Quote:
and we may add, this spake He of the Spirit." The timing of His conviction is determined by His will and not upon the will of a human vehicle like a preacher or a pastor.

http://www.eternalsecurity.us/decisi...generation.htm​

Completely unsupported in Scripture.

Look back at the last 6-8 posts I've made; I look forward to reading refutations of what I've fully and meticulously supported with Scripture.

We can clearly see here that Ben believes that his salvation is all about him, and what he does. The focus is all wrong.

 

[cygnusx1]

ben keeps asking this ;

The question remains --- if we are "sovereignly regenerated", then why is God resistible that sin is still possible?

such is his understanding that given his use of basic "logic" , the Miracles in Egypt cannot have occurred by Divine Sovereignty ; ending with the death by drowning of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea , BECAUSE later the Israelites had to have hand to hand combat with their enemies ................ of course the reader will straight away perceive the same false dichotomy borrowed from ben.

 

[cygnusx1]

Jeff is adding his own words to Scripture.

HAH! POT KETTLE !!!!

ben's number one sin he alleges against others ....... isn't that what Psychologists call , 'Projection' !!

 

[AndOne]

The question remains --- if we are "sovereignly regenerated", then why is God resistible that sin is still possible?​

​

Regeneration isn't dealing with the issue of sin - but salvation. So it's really not a relavent question.

No matter weather you are a Calvinist or Responsible Gracer (or whatever it is you want to be referred as) we agree that sin still exists and Christians do and can still sin.

When talking about Regeneration - we are talking about Salvation - period.
​

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
we are NOT born of faith , we are born of PROMISE , as are all the Elect. Just as Isaac was born of promise , so are we ;

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Gal 4:28​

Yet not all are God's children because they are Abraham's descendants, but children of the promise are regarded as descendants. Rom9:7-8

"And if you belong to Christ, THEN you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise." Gal3:29

Quote:
God promised Abraham UNCONDITIONALLY a Son , a son even from a dead womb , Abraham's faith did not in any sense make this so , Abraham received this promise by faith ... our birth into the Kingdom is a SOVEREIGN matter ,​

Not according to John1:12; those who BELIEVE and RECEIVE Christ (thus "belong to Christ"), are given the right to BECOME God's children. Inarguable.

Quote:
the wind blows where it wills , so is it with everyone born of the Spirit ,​

Can't make a verse that says "you don't see the wind either, but spiritual birth is just as real as the wind", into any kind of "predestination".

Quote:
not of mans will or efforts ,​

Can't cite Jn1:13 (begottenness is all of God, nothing of men) without including verse 12 (becoming begotten is by believing and receieving Jesus)...

Quote:
born-again according to God's outstanding riches of Grace . Deny God's Sovereignty in bearing children at His pleasure and you turn to the heresy of decisional regeneration or baptismal regeneration.​

"Born-again", is "have life"; it is "through faith" (Eph2:5-8), it is "after coming to Jesus" (Jn5:40).

Consider the idea of "obedience"; Heb5:9 says He is the source of salvation to all who OBEY Him. Then read 12:7-9, if we LACK God's discipline, then we are illegitimate and not sons. "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to (the discipline of) the Father of Spirits, AND live? ...much less shall WE escape who turn away from God." Heb12:9, 25

Quote:
we are "justified by faith" , but never does scripture say we are regenerated by faith !​

If "regenerated" means "have life", then Eph2:5-8 clearly does.

Quote:

we receive salvation by faith ; in contrast we are regenerated by a FREE decision of The Lord.​

The concept of "belonging to Christ", coexists with "regeneration"; and we've shown that "in Christ", is forfeitable. See 2Cor13:5, and the parallel use of "adokimos" in 1Cor9:25-27, as I just said in a previous post.

Diligence is required to remain "in Christ". Regeneration is for those of faith, and unbelief can (and does) cause loss-of-regeneration.

...thus regeneration is completely "our choice", through faith...

 

[AndOne]

Diligence is required to remain "in Christ". Regeneration is for those of faith, and unbelief can (and does) cause loss-of-regeneration.

...thus regeneration is completely "our choice", through faith...

If this is true - then there is no hope for any of us....

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
Regeneration isn't dealing with the issue of sin - but salvation. So it's really not a relevant question.​

It is --- before regeneration men can only follow their "sin nature", and seek deprivation. Right?

And by regeneration, belief and salvation are irresistible (the "I" in TULIP). Right?

So how then is God resistible so that we still SIN???

Quote:
No matter whether you are a Calvinist or Responsible Gracer (or whatever it is you want to be referred as) we agree that sin still exists and Christians do and can still sin.​

That's the point --- how is it possible, if only two natures exist --- "sinful" for the unregenerate, and "righteous" for the sovereignly-predestined (and monergistically-regenerated)?

The saved still sin. Not as often, but we do. How is that possible?

Quote:
When talking about Regeneration - we are talking about Salvation - period. ​

So it gets back to the question --- if "regeneration" is sovereignly-decided, then how do we RESIST regeneration to sin?

 

[nobdysfool]

...thus regeneration is completely "our choice", through faith...

Thus Ben has completely removed God from the equation. If "regeneration is completely our choice", then, in essence, we regenerate ourselves, by our own choice of Christ, apart from the working of the Holy Spirit (because logically, Ben believes that the Holy Spirit can do nothing until He indwells us), and salvation then in reality is totally up to us, and God can do nothing to either cause it, or help us maintain and retain it.

If that is so, then we are all truly lost! There is no hope for any of us, and we of all men are to be the most pitied, because we believe in a stark impossibility!.

 

[AndOne]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
Regeneration isn't dealing with the issue of sin - but salvation. So it's really not a relevant question.
​

It is --- before regeneration men can only follow their "sin nature", and seek deprivation. Right?

And by regeneration, belief and salvation are irresistible (the "I" in TULIP). Right?

So how then is God resistible so that we still SIN???

Quote:
No matter whether you are a Calvinist or Responsible Gracer (or whatever it is you want to be referred as) we agree that sin still exists and Christians do and can still sin.
​

That's the point --- how is it possible, if only two natures exist --- "sinful" for the unregenerate, and "righteous" for the sovereignly-predestined (and monergistically-regenerated)?

The saved still sin. Not as often, but we do. How is that possible?

Quote:
When talking about Regeneration - we are talking about Salvation - period.
​

So it gets back to the question --- if "regeneration" is sovereignly-decided, then how do we RESIST regeneration to sin?

I can't answer this question because sin is irrelevant to my being saved. Sorry.

 

[AndOne]

I can't answer this question because sin is irrelevant to my being saved. Sorry.

Let me rephrase - my ability or inability to stop from sinning is irrelevant to my being saved. In other words - its not about what I can do. So I can't answer this question.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
If this is true - then there is no hope for any of us....​

Sure there is; we abide in Him by FAITH, not by our strength.

If you disagree with the principle, then please tell us your understanding of 2Pet1:5-10.

What is the point of the admonishment towards "diligence"? Isn't it so that the gates of Heaven BE provided?

Clearly there is not an "abundant" entrance for the righteous, and a "sparse" entrance for the wicked; how is a man held up as the bad-example for the warning, a man who WAS purified (but now is not) --- unless that man will be US, if we are NOT diligent about our calling and election?

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Cygnus:
we are NOT born of faith , we are born of PROMISE , as are all the Elect. Just as Isaac was born of promise , so are we ;

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Gal 4:28​

Yet not all are God's children because they are Abraham's descendants, but children of the promise are regarded as descendants. Rom9:7-8

"And if you belong to Christ, THEN you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise." Gal3:29

which wouldn't be the case if it was down to man's will , remember Abraham wanted Ishmael to inherit the Promise , he was thwarted , and Isaac wanted Esau to inherit the promise , again God thwarted him !!

Quote:
God promised Abraham UNCONDITIONALLY a Son , a son even from a dead womb , Abraham's faith did not in any sense make this so , Abraham received this promise by faith ... our birth into the Kingdom is a SOVEREIGN matter ,​

Not according to John1:12; those who BELIEVE and RECEIVE Christ (thus "belong to Christ"), are given the right to BECOME God's children. Inarguable.

Oh but it is arguable as you well know ben!

First prove that Paul meant Regeneration NOT ADOPTION , then prove that God depends upon dead sinners to raise themselves from the grave into newness of life !

Quote:
the wind blows where it wills , so is it with everyone born of the Spirit ,​

Can't make a verse that says "you don't see the wind either, but spiritual birth is just as real as the wind", into any kind of "predestination".

hahha , it's got nothing to do with the wind being invisble ben ... this isn't the Geographic channel

Quote:
not of mans will or efforts ,​

Can't cite Jn1:13 (begottenness is all of God, nothing of men) without including verse 12 (becoming begotten is by believing and receieving Jesus)...

you not only contradict scripture you contradict yourself !

Abraham was promised sons , show everyone here , where it was conditional upon Abraham's faith that YOU were a son of his !


In which case , explain how God could Promise Abraham so much ....... when so much DEPENDED upon an uncertain , free-will of sinners like ben outcome !!!

Quote:
born-again according to God's outstanding riches of Grace . Deny God's Sovereignty in bearing children at His pleasure and you turn to the heresy of decisional regeneration or baptismal regeneration.​

"Born-again", is "have life"; it is "through faith" (Eph2:5-8), it is "after coming to Jesus" (Jn5:40).

paraphrasing scripture may fool some readers , but those who go back and check will see you are wrong ben.

Consider the idea of "obedience"; Heb5:9 says He is the source of salvation to all who OBEY Him. Then read 12:7-9, if we LACK God's discipline, then we are illegitimate and not sons. "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to (the discipline of) the Father of Spirits, AND live? ...much less shall WE escape who turn away from God." Heb12:9, 25

we are Regenerated unto a lively hope , unto the obedience of faith , but you wish to reverse it , as usual.


"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall seek My judgments, and do them" (Ezek. 36:26, 27).

Spiritual Regeneration preceeds the "obedience of faith" , every time !

a man needs to be born again BEFORE he can see (understand) the Kingdom of God. see John 3


Those who preach 'regeneration follows the obedience of faith' are making the same mistake as Abraham , who by his own efforts and under a misunderstanding even though he believed and had faith sought to obtain the promise by human power , he was later corrected in that the Promise is By God's Sovereign intervention when Sarah's womb was as good as dead , just as the sinner is raised with Christ ; reconciled to God BEFORE he has faith .....

while we were enemies Christ died for us , was raised for us , ,

while we were dead in trespasses and sins we were quickened ;


Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved :


we are born of God UNTO a saving faith ; for what is hope that is certain if not faith therefore this "hope" is certain which is faith ;


we are elect through santification of the Spirit UNTO obedience , the obedience of faith!

we are not elected through sanctification of the Spirit bECAUSE of the obedience of our faith !

1Pet.1

[1] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
[2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
[4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

We are Born Again UNTO a lively hope , what is this "lively hope" ?
now faith is being sure of what we hope for; and certain of what we do not see ... Heb11:1

Quote:
we are "justified by faith" , but never does scripture say we are regenerated by faith !​

If "regenerated" means "have life", then Eph2:5-8 clearly does.

only in ben's paraphrases can life come from death ... all by itself folks!!!

Quote:

we receive salvation by faith ; in contrast we are regenerated by a FREE decision of The Lord.​

The concept of "belonging to Christ", coexists with "regeneration"; and we've shown that "in Christ", is forfeitable. See 2Cor13:5, and the parallel use of "adokimos" in 1Cor9:25-27, as I just said in a previous post.

so YOU might still go to hell ben ..... mmmmmmm , that isn't salvation!

that's cross your fingers and hope you don't change your mind forever and ever ...... it's a sham.

Diligence is required to remain "in Christ". Regeneration is for those of faith, and unbelief can (and does) cause loss-of-regeneration.

is that why you claim to have been born-again several times ben ?

...thus regeneration is completely "our choice", through faith...

thus ben believes in the HERESY called Decisional Regeneration


Decisional regeneration exposed ;

http://www.the-highway.com/Decisional_Regeneration.html

 

[AndOne]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
If this is true - then there is no hope for any of us....
​

Sure there is; we abide in Him by FAITH, not by our strength.

If you disagree with the principle, then please tell us your understanding of 2Pet1:5-10.

What is the point of the admonishment towards "diligence"? Isn't it so that the gates of Heaven BE provided?

Clearly there is not an "abundant" entrance for the righteous, and a "sparse" entrance for the wicked; how is a man held up as the bad-example for the warning, a man who WAS purified (but now is not) --- unless that man will be US, if we are NOT diligent about our calling and election?

None of this make any sense to me.

First you say its by faith and not our strength - then you talk about being diligent.

You can't have it both ways -

Well - maybe you can - but the way my simple mind works - I surely can't. And if I have to be diligent to maintain my salvation then I'm doomed....

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
Let me rephrase - my ability or inability to stop from sinning is irrelevant to my being saved. In other words - its not about what I can do. So I can't answer this question.​

I agree "it's not about what you (or I) can do".

The question, is about natures. We agree that we had a sinful nature, and through Christ we have a new spiritual nature. But the problem, is that while the old nature pursued sin, the new nature is righteous.

The question between us, is how we acquire that new nature. If it's something that GOD does, then we cannot go against our sovereignly-decreed-nature --- we must be sinless.

That we sin, reveals a constant struggle between the "old", and the "new" --- hence, Paul could not have meant "the old has passed away forever". While we have the flesh, the sin nature exists; it may be dead, but it is there.

And per passages like Rom8:12-14, we can walk EITHER in the fleshly-sin-nature (if we do we must die) --- or by the Spirit we can put to death the flesh, and life.

Never do we have the ability to impress God by our lack-of-sinning, nor do sins condemn us; it's the HEART that DOES the sins, or the heart that is filled with Christ that does NOT sin, which condemns or saves us.

"Sins", or "righteousness", are consequences of the heart.

The "fatal flaw", is in trying to juggle the ideas of "sovereignly-regenerated" (new spiritual natures, GOD'S choice), and "occasionally-sinning" (which is RESISTING that new regenerated-spiritual-nature).

The only explanation, is that "regeneration" is resistible. It could not be if it was God's decision...

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Behe'sBoy:
If this is true - then there is no hope for any of us....​

Sure there is; we abide in Him by FAITH, not by our strength.

but faith is by our own strength according to ben , and furthermore faith can fail according to ben , so there is no hope for anyone ......... because everyone can , according to ben , fall away .

It's no good telling people that it's not by their own strength one minute then denying it with thousands of posts suggesting it ALL depends on us > ben's heaven is a sad place , full of empty mansions reserved for people who never made it , full of crowns reserved and never worn , with a pile of harps 600 feet high , and a scroll with thousands of names rubbed out ........... I don't want to go there!

 

[AndOne]

The question, is about natures. We agree that we had a sinful nature, and through Christ we have a new spiritual nature. But the problem, is that while the old nature pursued sin, the new nature is righteous.

The question between us, is how we acquire that new nature. If it's something that GOD does, then we cannot go against our sovereignly-decreed-nature --- we must be sinless.

That we sin, reveals a constant struggle between the "old", and the "new" --- hence, Paul could not have meant "the old has passed away forever". While we have the flesh, the sin nature exists; it may be dead, but it is there.

And per passages like Rom8:12-14, we can walk EITHER in the fleshly-sin-nature (if we do we must die) --- or by the Spirit we can put to death the flesh, and life.

Never do we have the ability to impress God by our lack-of-sinning, nor do sins condemn us; it's the HEART that DOES the sins, or the heart that is filled with Christ that does NOT sin, which condemns or saves us.

"Sins", or "righteousness", are consequences of the heart.

The "fatal flaw", is in trying to juggle the ideas of "sovereignly-regenerated" (new spiritual natures, GOD'S choice), and "occasionally-sinning" (which is RESISTING that new regenerated-spiritual-nature).

The only explanation, is that "regeneration" is resistible. It could not be if it was God's decision...

Again - none of what you say makes any sense to me whatsoever.

If there are consequences to my sin (in regards to eternity) then none of what you say is coherent to me.

Like I said - my being regenerated has nothing whatsoever to do with my being able to maintain my salvation through living righteously. If I live righteously it is in response to regeneration - not a means to it.