To follow him?I wonder which God would prefer. Works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, or, works done with the view they will better enable a person to enter heaven
But that doesn't answer the question
I wonder which God would prefer. Works done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation, or, works done with the view they will better enable a person to enter heaven
We walk by faith, and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7).
I mean, imagine if you lived during Noah's time, you could tell Noah (Who is called a "preacher of righteousness) that it is impossible for people to stop sinning and live righteously because the whole world is wicked and sins. However, that wicked world had perished and it was an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter (See 2 Peter 2:5-6).
Anyways, the Bible says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).
1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).
"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).
"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).
"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).
“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).
“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).
“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).
“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).
“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).
“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).
Well, works done out of love and gratitude is the Catholic position as I've demonstrated. Salvation, however, is not achieved by faith alone (James 2:24).
How would you reason the following?Well, works done out of love and gratitude is the Catholic position as I've demonstrated. Salvation, however, is not achieved by faith alone (James 2:24).
Hi Anna Therese, I believe that St. James is contrasting two kinds of faith for us in his 2nd Chapter, one that saves, and one that does not//one that 'results' in both salvation and then good works and everything else that "accompanies" salvation, and one that results in nothing (neither salvation nor works).Well, works done out of love and gratitude is the Catholic position as I've demonstrated. Salvation, however, is not achieved by faith alone (James 2:24).
Actually what James is saying is a person is not saved by faith without works. Meaning if a person has faith they will do good works. Our works do not play a part in our salvation. We are saved by God’s grace thru our faith. James mentions two types of faith. There’s a saving faith that produces works and there’s a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. We are saved by the type of faith that produces works. Not by the works themselves.
Are you saying Christians won’t sin?
You contradict yourself, my friend. On the one hand you say a saving faith produces works. Yet, on the other hand you say that works do not play a part in our salvation. In other words, you deny that very thing that is required as a part of the salvation process. You cannot be saved without faith. Faith always produces works to show that is a true faith. No works, and no true faith. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). James says we are justified (saved) by works (James 2:24). Granted, this is the work of God done through us. These works are good deeds but we give the credit to the Lord because He is the One working through us. Granted, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith (belief). But we are also saved in Sanctification, too.
"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
From the beginning, God has chosen you to salvation through:
(a) Sanctification of the Spirit.
(b) Belief of the Truth (Jesus is the truth - John 14:6).
I am saying a believer can overcome grievous sin. Care to take a shot at explaining any of those verses that you just quoted from my post on overcoming sin?
Actually the word used for justified in the Greek not only means to render as righteous but it also means to show or exhibit one to be righteous.
You said:Throughout James 2:14-26 James is talking about how our faith can be seen. So when he says Abraham and Rahab were justified by their works what he is saying is they were shown to be righteous by their works.
You said:Paul make the point that grace is no longer grace if we must work for it. The definition of grace is an unmerited favor of God. So if we receive grace by doing works that is a contradiction because grace is no longer a free and unmerited favor of God.
You said:James mentions two types of faith. A saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. Just because our faith produces works does not mean that those works play any part in our salvation. Faith aka pistis in the Greek definition not only means to believe but also faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty. These all have to do with our devotion to God. A saving faith is love and devotion to God. So we receive grace by our love and devotion to God. It’s not the works themselves that earn us grace. Our works are atributed to God for His glory not ours because our works are from the Holy Spirit. We couldn’t even do good works if it weren’t for the Holy Spirit guiding us and enabling us to do so.
Well, I do not believe the English conflicts with Greek within God’s Word. I also believe we cannot know a dead language unless we grew up during Bible times and or unless we have an apostle Paul around to correct us. I believe my position that the Word of God has been perfectly preserved for our world language today can be defended with Scripture (Unlike the “Original Languages Only” position - which cannot be defended using the Bible). Anyways, all you have to do is look at the context, my friend.
21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves"
(James 1:21-22).
First part of this verse says lay apart all filthiness, etc. (sin) and receive the engrafted Word (the New Testament teachings or Scriptures were grafted onto the Old) which is able to save your souls.
So this means that putting away sin is in reference to saving your souls. This is in line with what James 2:24 says in the fact that we are to do good works (not evil works) as a part of being justified (saved).
In addition, James 2 says,
9 "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
(James 2:9-10).
"There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you" (James 2:13) (NLT).
For the whole point of James saying faith without works is dead (James 2:17), he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18), and by works a man is justified and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
In other words, James is telling the brethren that if they have respect of persons by showing favor to the rich brethren and not giving any favor to the poor brethren, they commit sin and they transgress God's royal law of loving your neighbor (Which is the second greatest commandment). James is saying that if you are not merciful to others (like showing favor to the poor brethren) God will not be merciful with you. James drives home this point even more by saying that you need to actualy show forth works in loving others in order for their faith to be a real saving faith. For we are justified by works and not by faith alone. You want be justified by faith alone but James actually says the exact opposite and says we are are not justified by faith alone (James 2:24).
In James 2:14: James asks the questions,
"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?
Can such faith save them?"
So the topic is salvation because James asks,
"Can this kind of faith save them?
James gives an answer to this question by saying,
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
(James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone? No. You need faith to at least access the saving Grace of God (See Ephesians 2:8-9).
Paul and James did not contradict each other. They each taught against two wrong opposite extremes. Paul fought against the heresy of “Law Alone Salvationism” or “Works Alone Salvationism” (that did not include God’s grace) (See Ephesians 2:8-9), and James fought against the heresy of “Belief Alone Salvationism” or “Faith Alone Salvationism” (See James 2:24). For James says we are justified by works and not by faith (belief) alone (James 2:24).
Anyways, when Paul talks of not being under the Law or being justified by the Law, most erroneously think Paul is speaking about all law in general. However, the context of these statements of the "Law" are in reference to "Circumcision Salvationism" (See Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15, 1 Corinthians 7:19, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12; Also see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 21:21). (Important Note: Please take the time to hover your cursor over these verses to read them carefully - Thank you).
Circumcision Salvationism teaches two wrong things:
#1. We are saved by "Law Alone."
For "Circumcision Salvationism" falsely teaches that we initially get right with God by circumcision instead of by God's grace through faith.
#2. We are justified by keeping the Law of Moses.
(This is all 613 commands given to Israel as a whole or package deal). However, Christians are not under the Old Covenant and all of it's commands as a whole (covenantally speaking).
Granted, there are commands (Like the Moral Law) that have carried over into the New Covenant, though.
After we are saved by God’s grace, I also believe God moves within us to do good works and for us to live holy. I believe all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity work in the believer to make this happen (i.e. Sanctification). A believer without God cannot in any way obey God on his own power. It would be impossible. They need the Lord to work in them. But this is not a forced situation. A believer has to cooperate with the Lord and surrender to His will. They also have to have the desire to want to obey the Lord in the first place, instead of their desire to justify sin on some level (e.g. A person can say, “I am a sinner.” or they can quote Martin Luther who says, “Be a sinner.”, or they can say they can break God’s Moral Laws on some level and they are still saved.).
Anyways, saying that a saving faith will always yield fruitful works is true. Yet, you believe that these works are not for salvation and yet on the other hand you say that a saving faith will have good works. We are saying the same thing but you are not wanting to admit that works play a part in our salvation. Let me put to you this way, even if works did not directly earn salvation in and of itself, the fact that a true saving faith shows itself to be true by good works means that works do play a part of the salvation equation. Works do save. Because you cannot have a saving faith without good works, right?
Sure we are no longer a slave to sin. We no longer desire to commit sin but we will all fail and still stumble in sin from time to time. The Greek word for commiteth is poiéō which not only means to commit but also means to abide in or to continue. Because we know every Christian will still commit a sin we know that the word commiteth is not the proper term but Christians can refrain from sin. We don’t abide in sin or sin continuously.
Hello Jason, I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. For instance, the Apostle Paul says this about the Law of God:When Paul talks of not being under the Law or being justified by the Law, most erroneously think Paul is speaking about all law in general. However, the context of these statements of the "Law" are in reference to "Circumcision Salvationism"
Hello Jason, I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. For instance, the Apostle Paul says this about the Law of God:
Galatians 3
21 If a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
In what way do you believe that the ceremonial Jewish "Law of Circumcision" has "shut up everyone* under sin", and in what way do you believe that it is the harsh tutor that leads us to an understanding of our utter hopelessness apart from Christ, to faith in Him and salvation by His mercy and grace? (this would all be particularly true of Gentiles, wouldn't it, who were never beholden to the Jewish ceremonial laws to begin with)
*("everyone" = both Jews and Greeks)
Thanks!
Yours and His,
David
Actually the English translation is pretty inaccurate in many cases.
You said:Take the word repent for example. Not even close to the same definition of metanoia. Repent simply means to have remorse. Noting about changing ones mind or way of life or direction.
You said:Faith is another example. The word pistis not only means to believe but also faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty.
You said:Justified like I explained is dikaióō which like I said not only means to render as righteous but can also mean to be shown to be righteous. I think it is very beneficial to research the Greek words and definitions to better understand the message that the authors of the New Testament are trying to convey.
Well, I am going to have to have patience in love with you on this one, friend. Every fiber of my being and my experience says this is wrong and so many levels that I do not even know where to begin. Well, I do know where to begin. I am speaking metaphorically of course. Anyways, I could speak for days and with passion and fire from God and how you are wrong on this, but that is for another thread for another time.
You are confusing repentance with confession. They are not the same thing. Repentance will bring about confession as someone is turning away from sin and turning towards God. Repentance is being born again and becoming a new creation. When you see the term repent of sin which is a loose translation because the original Greek scriptures actually never use that term but it means to turn away from sin.
Would you like to see what the original Greek says in Acts 2:38?
Acts 2:38
38 and Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,
Allow me to present the Greek word and definition for the word repent.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Repent
G3340 this is the Strong’s Concordance reference number
Lemma:
μετανοέω
Transliteration:
metanoéō
Pronounce:
met-an-o-eh'-o
Part of Speech:
Verb
Language:
greek
Description:
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)
Grammar:
from μετά and νοιέω; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent.
Occurrences in Bible:
36
Occurrences in Verses:
32
KJV usage:
repent (34x).
The Greek language is not a dead language and has been used in the Orthodox Church since the very beginning of Christianity. The Orthodox Church is the original Church of God established in Jerusalem and Antioch which both are mentioned in the Bible. They have upheld the original teachings of the apostles unlike the Roman Catholic Church. They are the true apostlic church established by Jesus Himself. Personally I am not Orthodox I am nondenominational but I happen to agree with the Orthodox teachings.
The original scriptures of the New Testament were written in Greek not English. So scholars did not look for Greek words similar to the English to come to these conclusions. The Greek language has been preserved in the Orthodox Church since the beginning. The definitions are not disputed. Allow me to present the Greek definition of the word justified.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
justified
G1344
Lemma:
δικαιόω
Transliteration:
dikaióō
Pronounce:
dik-ah-yo'-o
Part of Speech:
Verb
Language:
greek
Description:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Grammar:
from δίκαιος; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous.
Occurrences in Bible:
48
Occurrences in Verses:
36
KJV usage:
justify (37x), be freed (1x), be righteous (1x), justifier (1x).
Even Hebrew translations to English are not 100% accurate. For example the word image as used in Exodus 20:4. The Hebrew word used is pecel.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
image
H6459
Lemma:
פֶּסֶל
Transliteration:
peçel
Pronounce:
peh'-sel
Part of Speech:
Noun Masculine
Language:
heb
Description:
1) idol, image
Grammar:
lemma פֶסֶל missing dagesh, corrected to פֶּסֶל; from פָּסַל; an idol; carved (graven) image.
Occurrences in Bible:
31
Occurrences in Verses:
31
KJV usage:
graven image (28x), carved image (2x), graven (1x).
The word pecel is specifically referring to carved or graven images of idols. Many people make the mistake of believing God said we are not to create images of likeness of anything on the earth, in the sea, or in the heavens but this is incorrect. God is specifically forbidding making idols. The word for an image of likeness is tselem.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
image
H6754
Lemma:
צֶלֶם
Transliteration:
tselem
Pronounce:
tseh'-lem
Part of Speech:
Noun Masculine
Language:
heb
Description:
1) image a) images (of tumours, b) image, likeness (of resemblance) c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)
Grammar:
from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, image, vain shew.
Occurrences in Bible:
17
Occurrences in Verses:
15
KJV usage:
image (16x), vain shew (1x).
By trusting English versions you are trusting scholars who have translated the original texts into English according to their understanding. By going to the original texts themselves your cutting out the middleman and his idea of he thinks it says. Instead your getting the original message that the authors intended. Here’s just one example of an English version with a very inaccurate translation. John 3:36
“And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.””
John 3:36 NLT
36 he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.’
John 3:36 Greek translation
Your taking a much bigger leap of faith trusting English translations.
No. Please put down your Lexicon for a moment and pick up your Bible you normally read. The Bible verses I shown to you refute your belief on repentance. No. Let me correct that statement. The Bible verses I shown to you totally annihilates your view of repentance. Your view on repentance doesn’t even make any sense when a person reads the Bible. Please give me a word for word commentary on what those verses say in the English that I gave you. They all say the same thing (i.e. that repentance means seeking forgiveness with God). If you cannot use a plain English Bible to defend what you think God’s Word says, then there is no point in having this discussion. You will see only what the Lexicons say. But where in Scripture does it say we can only understand God’s Word properly by looking to another language or a Lexicon?
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