Faith Plus Works

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Nope, I just realized some where along the way, that God loves the screw-ups too. We've all come a long way from what we were, but what we are to become is yet to be seen.

If what you say is true, then please take 2-3 verses in my Post #185 and explain them that defends this sin and still be saved kind of view. For you obviously do not believe that saints can overcome sin, and yet that is what the list of verses I have shown to you says.
 
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I don't see it as lack of respect at all. More like ...if God can use that person with all his failings maybe he can use me too. Yes, they repented, and that's a difference between Saint and sinner, one is willing to Humble himself the other isn't.

How can they really be a saint if they live like a sinner or a devil?
That is contradictory to what the word actually means.
One is a saint because they live like a saint.
One is a sinner because they live like a sinner.
One is a firefighter because they fight fires.

As for a lack of respect with God's people written within His Word:
I think you have a view of God's people that simply is not true. You are focusing on their faults as if that is how they lived their entire lives when that was not so. The only two believers who I believe are the exception to the rule on this is Samson and Solomon. But two people out of many other godly men in the Bible helps us to see that they are an example of how not to live. They are also an example of God's grace. However, they were rare cases. They got lucky in the fact that they were saved by the skin of their teeth in the end.

For the Bible warns that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord
(Hebrews 12:14).

We should never treat sin as if it is no big deal because the Bible warns against how it can have dire consequences to a person's soul if they do sin.

Side Note:

Oh, and saying that certain men of God were real doozies is insulting whether you agree or not. It's like saying they were losers. But they were not losers or doozies. God's people were great in the fact that they trusted in God and lived the best way they knew how by abiding in Him and His good ways.
 
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St_Worm2

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St_Worm2, re your Signature in your post #17 :

'Preach the Gospel daily. Use words, if necessary' is customarily, I believe, attributed to St Francis of Assissi ; however, the rich irony of that quote by Lygen Duncan that you cite that refers to it, seems to have escaped both of you.

Is there any more persuasive manner of preaching than by example ? It was much of what lent such impressive authority to Jesus' own words. That is the profound truth that the author sought to express by what amounts to a witticism, a 'bon mot' - precisely because we normally define 'preaching' as a form of verbal communication. Put another way : 'Words are cheap', i.e. when not backed up by deeds. More clear, but without the memorably pungent wit. We also sometimes even refer explicitly to preaching by example ; again, somewhat figurative in terms of our normal understanding of the meaning of 'to preach'.
Hi Paul, there is no question that living like a Christian is supposed to live (e.g. Matthew 7:12) can make our faith attractive to others (if they know that we're Christians, that is), and that it's our words (the Gospel/God's truth) that always seem to get us in trouble .. or killed .. cf Matthew 14:8.

On the other hand, no one comes to faith in Christ apart from words .. Romans 10:17, and that's what Ligon's quote seeks to emphasize (particularly in light of what is said in the quote that is falsely attributed to St. Francis). Ligon is not saying that we shouldn't live like Christians before others at all times, but that words are ALWAYS necessary, not simply an afterthought or last resort, where evangelism is concerned.

If you don't mind, I'll let this interesting excerpt from an article at NCR speak more fully for me about this: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/gstanton/what-st.-francis-of-assisi-didnt-actually-say

ncregister-logo-385x115.png


kk201510300824.jpg

Albert Chevallier Tayler, "St Francis" (1898)
BLOGS | OCT. 30, 2015
What St. Francis of Assisi Didn’t Actually Say

Glenn Stanton

Last Sunday, our faithful deacon in the midst of his excellent homily used a quote that most of us have heard, perhaps many times.

Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.”​

It is always attributed to St. Francis of Assisi—founder of the Franciscan Order—and is intended to say that proclaiming the Gospel by example is more virtuous than actually proclaiming it with voice. It is a quote that has often rankled me because it seems to create a useless dichotomy between speech and action. Besides, the spirit behind it can be a little arrogant—which I’m sure our deacon didn’t intend—intimating that those who "practice the Gospel" are in reality more faithful to the faith than those who preach it.

But here's the fact: Our good Francis never said it or anything close.

None of his disciples or biographers have these very quotable words coming from his mouth. It doesn't show up in any of his writings. Not even close, really. The closest comes from his Rule of 1221 on how the Franciscans should practice their preaching:

No brother should preach contrary to the form and regulations of the holy Church nor unless he has been permitted by his minister . . . All the Friars . . . should preach by their deeds.

Essentially, make sure your deeds match your words. While there's a nice and good sentiment in the statement—be sure you live out the grace and truth of the Gospel—the notion as it is typically presented is neither practical, nor faithful to the Gospel of Christ. It does not align with St. Francis' own practice.

His first biographer, Thomas of Celano, writing just three years after Francis' death, quotes him instructing his co-workers in the Gospel thusly:

The preacher must first draw from secret prayers what he will later pour out in holy sermons; he must first grow hot within before he speaks words that are in themselves cold.

Our man clearly spent a great deal of time using his words when he preached, “sometimes preaching in up to five villages a day, often outdoors. In the country, Francis often spoke from a bale of straw or a granary doorway. In town, he would climb on a box or up steps in a public building. He preached to . . . any who gathered to hear the strange but fiery little preacher from Assisi.” He was sometimes so animated and passionate in his delivery that “his feet moved as if he were dancing.”

We must know that it's simply impossible to proclaim the Gospel without words and of course our good Francis knew this as well as any. The Gospel is inherently verbal, and preaching the Gospel is inherently verbal behavior.

St. Paul was quite clear in this, asking the Church at Rome (Romans 10:14):

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

The New Evangelization is not a silent evangelization. So next time you hear one of your brothers or sisters in Christ use this quote to encourage or challenge you in the labors for our faith, gently guide them from the land of misinformation and into truth.

--David

Romans 10
17 Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
 
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Loren T.

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How can they really be a saint if they live like a sinner or a devil?
That is contradictory to what the word actually means.
One is a saint because they live like a saint.
One is a sinner because they live like a sinner.
One is a firefighter because they fight fires.

As for a lack of respect with God's people written within His Word:
I think you have a view of God's people that simply is not true. You are focusing on their faults as if that is how they lived their entire lives when that was not so. The only two believers who I believe are the exception to the rule on this is Samson and Solomon. But two people out of many other godly men in the Bible helps us to see that they are an example of how not to live. They are also an example of God's grace. However, they were rare cases. They got lucky in the fact that they were saved by the skin of their teeth in the end.

For the Bible warns that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord
(Hebrews 12:14).

We should never treat sin as if it is no big deal because the Bible warns against how it can have dire consequences to a person's soul if they do sin.

Side Note:

Oh, and saying that certain men of God were real doozies is insulting whether you agree or not. It's like saying they were losers. But they were not losers or doozies. God's people were great in the fact that they trusted in God and lived the best way they knew how by abiding in Him and His good ways.
Yeah well, we're all real doozies when it comes right down to it. And if we don't acknowledge that, it's because we're prideful. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth that I never said. If someone lives like the devil all the time, yes, it is a problem. But we are not under the curse of the law, and as soon as we start thinking that us being good saves us, we just fell into sin, whether we know it or not.
 
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Loren T.

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If what you say is true, then please take 2-3 verses in my Post #185 and explain them that defends this sin and still be saved kind of view. For you obviously do not believe that saints can overcome sin, and yet that is what the list of verses I have shown to you says.
Yes those verses are there to teach us how to live... Because we're going to need them, because we're going to mess up a lot. And that's why there's other verseslike: if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, because we're going to need those too. Like I said I lived under the burden of that teaching for a long time. And leads to the fear that God is going to pounce on you and drop kick you out of this Kingdom at any moment. And it leads to legalism and judging everyone else. Been there, done that got the T-shirt, discovered Grace, and freedom. I pray you find it one day. Shalom, that's all I got to say about that.
 
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St_Worm2

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If I want to do good works and be obedient to Yahweh out of my own choice does it make me a legalist?
Not necessarily, we all do things because we choose to do them. However, if you are resting all of your future hopes in your good works/good behavior, and you believe that your innate goodness and personal obedience is the pathway to obtaining eternal life from God, then I think you'd better be prepared for disappointment when you stand before Him at the Great White Throne (along with these folks who thought the same thing .. Matthew 7:22-23 :eek:).

Yours and His,
David
 
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Kalboon

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When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

The faith makes us subjects of the Cross of Christ Jesus. The works are in overcoming and staying obedient to Jesus onto death as Paul would term Prisoners of Christ.

It is a work of faith that we are to overcome and remain faithful and then Jesus will determine if we were faithful to him or faithful to a man-made system.

In short, a person can be considered good by Jesus Christ but at the same time can be a bad EO, OO, Catholic, Baptist, SDA etc. At the end of the end of the day, Jesus will judge the living and the dead at his return.
 
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Anna Therese

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The Reformers would say that God enables man by the Holy Spirit to choose God and respond to him in faith, but that man's response and act of faith is a legitimate human choice and act.

The Reformers would furthermore say that God's enabling is so effective that man cannot ultimately resist it. When God opens the eyes of the blind, they do freely respond to him.

Would you agree with these formulations?

No, I don't agree. Jesus Christ died for all, but all do not receive salvation. Why? Because man is able to resist God's grace.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?" -Matt. 23:37


"Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel?" Ezekial 33:11
 
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Tree of Life

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No, I don't agree. Jesus Christ died for all, but all do not receive salvation. Why? Because man is able to resist God's grace.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?" -Matt. 23:37


"Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel?" Ezekial 33:11

If Christ died to atone for the sins of all, then why does God still punish people for their sins who do not repent?
 
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Anna Therese

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Hi David/Anna, so in the end, it's our "cooperation" w/God that actually saves us, rather than His grace (or do you believe that God gives His saving grace to certain individuals and withholds it from others)?

Thanks!

--David

Romans 11
6 If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
.

How could we cooperate with God without God's grace?
 
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Tree of Life

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It's for the very reason that they do not repent.

But if their sins are atoned for then repentance should be immaterial. If Jesus suffered for their sins then they should not have to suffer for the same sins. That would be double jeopardy.
 
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Anna Therese

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But if their sins are atoned for then repentance should be immaterial. If Jesus suffered for their sins then they should not have to suffer for the same sins. That would be double jeopardy.

The Council of Trent dogmatically defined that one must be born again in order to be justified.

Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 3: “But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so unless they were born again in Christ they would never be justified, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”
 
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Anna Therese

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An example to further illustrate the point on the necessity of man's cooperation with God's grace for salvation can be seen in the Parable of the Fig Tree. Luke 13:6...

"He spoke also this parable: A certain man had a fig-tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it, and found none.

And he said to the tiller of the vineyard: Behold these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig-tree, and I find none. Cut it down, therefore; why doth it take up the ground? But he answering said to him: Lord, let it alone this year also, until I dig about it and dung it. And if happily it bear fruit: but if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

Each one who is born again to life in Christ through the sacrament of baptism, if he does not produce the fruits of good works by the assistance of God's grace will be cast into the fire like a dead branch cut off from the tree.
 
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Anna Therese

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Jesus Christ said, "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 7:21)

Who would be so presumptuous as to believe that seeds sprout and grains ripen at our bidding? We must do our part. We must cooperate with the graces He gives us. Just as a farmer must cultivate the soil and sow the seed if he will reap the harvest, so by God's grace we must cultivate virtue by our works (they are good works because we do them with Him and for Him) if we will reap salvation. "For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting." -Gal. 6:8
 
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