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Featured Faith Plus Works

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    To follow him?
     
  2. Anna Therese

    Anna Therese New Member

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    Well, works done out of love and gratitude is the Catholic position as I've demonstrated. Salvation, however, is not achieved by faith alone (James 2:24).
     
  3. Anna Therese

    Anna Therese New Member

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    God is to be loved because He is Love, Goodness, Truth, Wisdom, and all His other attributes; in a nutshell, He, being all good, is deserving of all our love.
     
  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Are you saying Christians won’t sin?
     
  5. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Actually what James is saying is a person is not saved by faith without works. Meaning if a person has faith they will do good works. Our works do not play a part in our salvation. We are saved by God’s grace thru our faith. James mentions two types of faith. There’s a saving faith that produces works and there’s a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. We are saved by the type of faith that produces works. Not by the works themselves. :)
     
  6. daydreamer40

    daydreamer40 Active Member

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    How would you reason the following?

    Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.


    21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom3:20-22

    Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
     
  7. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hi Anna Therese, I believe that St. James is contrasting two kinds of faith for us in his 2nd Chapter, one that saves, and one that does not//one that 'results' in both salvation and then good works and everything else that "accompanies" salvation, and one that results in nothing (neither salvation nor works).

    The things that accompany salvation (or the lack thereof) demonstrate the kind of faith that a person possesses, either a saving/lively faith, or demon/dead faith.

    As St. James tells us:

    James 2
    18 Someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

    Also, to say that both St. James and St. Paul mean δικαιόω [dikaioo] "justify" in the same sense or meaning of that word creates a contradiction in the Bible that cannot be harmonized. We cannot have St. James saying that we are justified/saved by God because of our works on the one hand, while having St. Paul tell us that we are justified/saved by God apart from our works on the other .. Ephesians 2:9.

    Finally, the things we do as a result of being saved (the things that accompany salvation), "justify" our claim of being a Christian (or the lack thereof fails to justify that same claim in the case of a "dead" faith .. James 2:19). This kind of justification is for us and others (e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5; James 2:18), not for God, as we certainly do not need to demonstrate/"justify" our claim of being saved to the very One who justified/saved us in the first place, the One who knows us and our hearts better than we do ourselves :preach:

    --David

    Ephesians 2
    8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
    9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You contradict yourself, my friend. On the one hand you say a saving faith produces works. Yet, on the other hand you say that works do not play a part in our salvation. In other words, you deny that very thing that is required as a part of the salvation process. You cannot be saved without faith. Faith always produces works to show that is a true faith. No works, and no true faith. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). James says we are justified (saved) by works (James 2:24). Granted, this is the work of God done through us. These works are good deeds but we give the credit to the Lord because He is the One working through us. Granted, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith (belief). But we are also saved in Sanctification, too.

    "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    From the beginning, God has chosen you to salvation through:

    (a) Sanctification of the Spirit.
    (b) Belief of the Truth (Jesus is the truth - John 14:6).
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am saying a believer can overcome grievous sin. Care to take a shot at explaining any of those verses that you just quoted from my post on overcoming sin?
     
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Actually the word used for justified in the Greek not only means to render as righteous but it also means to show or exhibit one to be righteous. Throughout James 2:14-26 James is talking about how our faith can be seen. So when he says Abraham and Rahab were justified by their works what he is saying is they were shown to be righteous by their works. Paul make the point that grace is no longer grace if we must work for it. The definition of grace is an unmerited favor of God. So if we receive grace by doing works that is a contradiction because grace is no longer a free and unmerited favor of God. James mentions two types of faith. A saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. Just because our faith produces works does not mean that those works play any part in our salvation. Faith aka pistis in the Greek definition not only means to believe but also faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty. These all have to do with our devotion to God. A saving faith is love and devotion to God. So we receive grace by our love and devotion to God. It’s not the works themselves that earn us grace. Our works are atributed to God for His glory not ours because our works are from the Holy Spirit. We couldn’t even do good works if it weren’t for the Holy Spirit guiding us and enabling us to do so.
     
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Sure we are no longer a slave to sin. We no longer desire to commit sin but we will all fail and still stumble in sin from time to time. The Greek word for commiteth is poiéō which not only means to commit but also means to abide in or to continue. Because we know every Christian will still commit a sin we know that the word commiteth is not the proper term but Christians can refrain from sin. We don’t abide in sin or sin continuously.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I do not believe the English conflicts with Greek within God’s Word. I also believe we cannot know a dead language unless we grew up during Bible times and or unless we have an apostle Paul around to correct us. I believe my position that the Word of God has been perfectly preserved for our world language today can be defended with Scripture (Unlike the “Original Languages Only” position - which cannot be defended using the Bible). Anyways, all you have to do is look at the context, my friend.

    21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves"
    (James 1:21-22).​

    First part of this verse says lay apart all filthiness, etc. (sin) and receive the engrafted Word (the New Testament teachings or Scriptures were grafted onto the Old) which is able to save your souls.

    So this means that putting away sin is in reference to saving your souls. This is in line with what James 2:24 says in the fact that we are to do good works (not evil works) as a part of being justified (saved).

    In addition, James 2 says,

    9 "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
    10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
    (James 2:9-10).​

    "There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you" (James 2:13) (NLT).​

    For the whole point of James saying faith without works is dead (James 2:17), he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18), and by works a man is justified and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

    In other words, James is telling the brethren that if they have respect of persons by showing favor to the rich brethren and not giving any favor to the poor brethren, they commit sin and they transgress God's royal law of loving your neighbor (Which is the second greatest commandment). James is saying that if you are not merciful to others (like showing favor to the poor brethren) God will not be merciful with you. James drives home this point even more by saying that you need to actualy show forth works in loving others in order for their faith to be a real saving faith. For we are justified by works and not by faith alone. You want be justified by faith alone but James actually says the exact opposite and says we are are not justified by faith alone (James 2:24).

    In James 2:14: James asks the questions,

    "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?
    Can such faith save them?"​

    So the topic is salvation because James asks,
    "Can this kind of faith save them?

    James gives an answer to this question by saying,

    “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
    (James 2:17).​

    Can a dead faith save anyone? No. You need faith to at least access the saving Grace of God (See Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Paul and James did not contradict each other. They each taught against two wrong opposite extremes. Paul fought against the heresy of “Law Alone Salvationism” or “Works Alone Salvationism” (that did not include God’s grace) (See Ephesians 2:8-9), and James fought against the heresy of “Belief Alone Salvationism” or “Faith Alone Salvationism” (See James 2:24). For James says we are justified by works and not by faith (belief) alone (James 2:24).

    Anyways, when Paul talks of not being under the Law or being justified by the Law, most erroneously think Paul is speaking about all law in general. However, the context of these statements of the "Law" are in reference to the Old Law or the 613 Laws of Moses (covenantally speaking) because he is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (See Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15, 1 Corinthians 7:19, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12; Also see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 21:21). (Important Note: Please take the time to hover your cursor over these verses to read them carefully - Thank you).

    Circumcision Salvationism teaches two wrong things:

    #1. We are saved by "Law Alone."
    For "Circumcision Salvationism" falsely teaches that we initially get right with God by circumcision instead of by God's grace through faith.

    #2. We are justified by keeping the Law of Moses.
    (This is all 613 commands given to Israel as a whole or package deal). However, Christians are not under the Old Covenant and all of it's commands as a whole (covenantally speaking).​

    Granted, there are commands (Like the Moral Law) that have carried over into the New Covenant, though.

    After we are saved by God’s grace, I also believe God moves within us to do good works and for us to live holy. I believe all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity work in the believer to make this happen (i.e. Sanctification). A believer without God cannot in any way obey God on his own power. It would be impossible. They need the Lord to work in them. But this is not a forced situation. A believer has to cooperate with the Lord and surrender to His will. They also have to have the desire to want to obey the Lord in the first place, instead of their desire to justify sin on some level (e.g. A person can say, “I am a sinner.” or they can quote Martin Luther who says, “Be a sinner.”, or they can say they can break God’s Moral Laws on some level and they are still saved.).

    Anyways, saying that a saving faith will always yield fruitful works is true. Yet, you believe that these works are not for salvation and yet on the other hand you say that a saving faith will have good works. We are saying the same thing but you are not wanting to admit that works play a part in our salvation. Let me put to you this way, even if works did not directly earn salvation in and of itself, the fact that a true saving faith shows itself to be true by good works means that works do play a part of the salvation equation. Works do save. Because you cannot have a saving faith without good works, right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  13. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Actually the English translation is pretty inaccurate in many cases. Take the word repent for example. Not even close to the same definition of metanoia. Repent simply means to have remorse. Noting about changing ones mind or way of life or direction. Faith is another example. The word pistis not only means to believe but also faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty. Justified like I explained is dikaióō which like I said not only means to render as righteous but can also mean to be shown to be righteous. I think it is very beneficial to research the Greek words and definitions to better understand the message that the authors of the New Testament are trying to convey.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Okay. I don't believe anyone truly knows what the Greek says outside of their English Bibles. We both repented hearing the English. We both primarily read and understand our Bibles in the English. We both talk to each other in the English. So please use the Word of God in English please.

    1 John 3:8 is in reference to both a singular sin and or multiple sins (because multiple sins are committed individually and not all at once as a group kind of thing).
    1 John 3:15 says that the one who hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.
    How many acts of hate do you have to do so as to hate your brother? It only takes one act of hate to not love your brother (See James 2).
    Anyways, 1 John 3:15 can refer to a singular act and it even points to a singular act of the murdering of Cain (1 John 3:12).

    Anyways, please address these verses using an English translated Bible that clearly talk about the believer overcoming sin. Thank you.

    "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

    "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

    1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
    2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

    "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

    "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

    "Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12NLT).

    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

    “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

    “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

    “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

    “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

    “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

    “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

    “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

    “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

    “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).


     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  15. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hello Jason, I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. For instance, the Apostle Paul says this about the Law of God:

    Galatians 3
    21 If a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
    22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
    24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

    In what way do you believe that the ceremonial Jewish "Law of Circumcision" has "shut up everyone* under sin", and in what way do you believe that it is the harsh tutor that leads us to an understanding of our utter hopelessness apart from Christ, to faith in Him and salvation by His mercy and grace? (this would all be particularly true of Gentiles, wouldn't it, who were never beholden to the Jewish ceremonial laws to begin with)

    *("everyone" = both Jews and Greeks)

    Thanks!

    Yours and His,
    David
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Sorry, I was not clear in my post before.
    I have now updated it.

    Anyways, let me explain what I am trying to say a little better. Circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law. That is the point. So when Paul speaks of the "Law," he is talking about the 613 Laws of Moses (the Old Law) because circumcision was a part of those laws. So when Paul uses the word "Law" (generically) in most cases, he is referring to the Old Testament Laws because the surrounding context mentions "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is an obvious heresy or false teaching within that particular point in time).

    That is why Paul speaks of the Old Law was a school master that brings us unto Christ. For what Law existed before Christ? The New Testament Law? No. The Old Testament Law. So obviously Paul is not referring to commands that were based upon his own writings that He gave (See 1 Corinthians 14:37). Nor was Paul referring to the commands given to us by Jesus Christ, either; For if Paul was speaking of the commands of Jesus and how they do not apply anymore, he would have contradicted himself. For he said in Timothy that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). This is important to understand because James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

    Anyways, in conclusion: Paul was referring to the 613 Old Testament Laws (covenantally speaking). This does not mean Paul is referring to God's laws in general; And nor does it mean Paul was referring to God's Moral Laws (that have continued on into the New Testament). Yes, we are not saved by "Law Alone" (Which is what "Circumcision Salvationism" is saying). Again, Paul uses the word "Law" in reference to OT Law as a point to refute "Circumcision Salvationism" because circumcision is a part of the Old Law. Paul is saying we are not under the 613 Laws that come from the Old Testament Law of Moses. This is evident because Paul references circumcision as being a problem under the New Testament.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I am going to have to have patience in love with you on this one, friend. Every fiber of my being and my experience says this is wrong and so many levels that I do not even know where to begin. Well, I do know where to begin. I am speaking metaphorically of course. Anyways, I could speak for days and with passion and fire from God and how you are wrong on this, but that is for another thread for another time.

    I do not ascribe to any of those exact definitions for repentance. Here is...

    My Biblical Case For Repentance:

    At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches clearly that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness"
    (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

    Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

    Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."


    #1. Acts 2:38,
    The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
    Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
    New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

    #2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

    #3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

    (a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
    (b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).
    #4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

    #5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

    #6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
    "Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

    #7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

    "I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

    In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

    #8. Luke 10:13 says,
    "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

    #9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

    #10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.​


    Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
    (But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

    "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

    13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

    Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.​

    I do not think there is anything wrong with finding similar Greek words used with a different English rendering. This is not a conflict within the text at all. But to assume you know a dead language (or that scholars got it right) is too much of a leap of faith for me to take. I don't assume you have a time machine in your garage. I believe the Bible is preserved in our world language today because there are many evidences that show that God's Word is divine in origin (i.e. the 1769 KJV). Granted, this does not mean I do not use Modern Translations. This simply means that they are not my final word of authority. However, I believe a person who is into "Original Languages" can make the Word of God say whatever they want it to say because nobody would be the wiser because nobody actually speaks or writes the "Original Languages" anymore.

    Justified means to be declared just or righteous. This is true. You don't need to know Greek in order to know that. Simple English with an English dictionary will tell you that, too. But with the English, you cannot just make up your own definition as easily with a person being able to catch on (and point our your error). For the scholars could obviously have a religious agenda of their own. General dictionaries usually do not come with religious agendas attached (most of the time). Granted, I am not saying that Lexicons cannot be accurate, but we really do not know if they are truly correct or not without checking it with the Bible we normally read in the English.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  18. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    You are confusing repentance with confession. They are not the same thing. Repentance will bring about confession as someone is turning away from sin and turning towards God. Repentance is being born again and becoming a new creation. When you see the term repent of sin which is a loose translation because the original Greek scriptures actually never use that term but it means to turn away from sin.

    Would you like to see what the original Greek says in Acts 2:38?

    Acts 2:38

    38 and Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,

    Allow me to present the Greek word and definition for the word repent.

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Repent


    G3340 this is the Strong’s Concordance reference number


    Lemma:

    μετανοέω


    Transliteration:

    metanoéō


    Pronounce:

    met-an-o-eh'-o


    Part of Speech:

    Verb


    Language:

    greek


    Description:

    1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

    2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)


    Grammar:

    from μετά and νοιέω; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent.


    Occurrences in Bible:

    36


    Occurrences in Verses:

    32


    KJV usage:

    repent (34x).

    The Greek language is not a dead language and has been used in the Orthodox Church since the very beginning of Christianity. The Orthodox Church is the original Church of God established in Jerusalem and Antioch which both are mentioned in the Bible. They have upheld the original teachings of the apostles unlike the Roman Catholic Church. They are the true apostlic church established by Jesus Himself. Personally I am not Orthodox I am nondenominational but I happen to agree with the Orthodox teachings.

    The original scriptures of the New Testament were written in Greek not English. So scholars did not look for Greek words similar to the English to come to these conclusions. The Greek language has been preserved in the Orthodox Church since the beginning. The definitions are not disputed. Allow me to present the Greek definition of the word justified.

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    justified


    G1344


    Lemma:

    δικαιόω


    Transliteration:

    dikaióō


    Pronounce:

    dik-ah-yo'-o


    Part of Speech:

    Verb


    Language:

    greek


    Description:

    1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

    2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

    3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be


    Grammar:

    from δίκαιος; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:--free, justify(-ier), be righteous.


    Occurrences in Bible:

    48


    Occurrences in Verses:

    36


    KJV usage:

    justify (37x), be freed (1x), be righteous (1x), justifier (1x).

    Even Hebrew translations to English are not 100% accurate. For example the word image as used in Exodus 20:4. The Hebrew word used is pecel.

    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

    image


    H6459


    Lemma:

    פֶּסֶל


    Transliteration:

    peçel


    Pronounce:

    peh'-sel


    Part of Speech:

    Noun Masculine


    Language:

    heb


    Description:

    1) idol, image


    Grammar:

    lemma פֶסֶל missing dagesh, corrected to פֶּסֶל; from פָּסַל; an idol; carved (graven) image.


    Occurrences in Bible:

    31


    Occurrences in Verses:

    31


    KJV usage:

    graven image (28x), carved image (2x), graven (1x).

    The word pecel is specifically referring to carved or graven images of idols. Many people make the mistake of believing God said we are not to create images of likeness of anything on the earth, in the sea, or in the heavens but this is incorrect. God is specifically forbidding making idols. The word for an image of likeness is tselem.

    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    image


    H6754


    Lemma:

    צֶלֶם


    Transliteration:

    tselem


    Pronounce:

    tseh'-lem


    Part of Speech:

    Noun Masculine


    Language:

    heb


    Description:

    1) image a) images (of tumours, b) image, likeness (of resemblance) c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)


    Grammar:

    from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, image, vain shew.


    Occurrences in Bible:

    17


    Occurrences in Verses:

    15


    KJV usage:

    image (16x), vain shew (1x).

    By trusting English versions you are trusting scholars who have translated the original texts into English according to their understanding. By going to the original texts themselves your cutting out the middleman and his idea of he thinks it says. Instead your getting the original message that the authors intended. Here’s just one example of an English version with a very inaccurate translation. John 3:36

    “And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.””
    ‭‭John‬ ‭3:36‬ ‭NLT‬‬

    36 he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.’
    John 3:36 Greek translation

    Your taking a much bigger leap of faith trusting English translations.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. Please put down your Lexicon for a moment and pick up your Bible you normally read. The Bible verses I shown to you refute your belief on repentance. No. Let me correct that statement. The Bible verses I shown to you totally annihilates your view of repentance. Your view on repentance doesn’t even make any sense when a person reads the Bible. Please give me a word for word commentary on what those verses say in the English that I gave you. They all say the same thing (i.e. that repentance means seeking forgiveness with God). If you cannot use a plain English Bible to defend what you think God’s Word says, then there is no point in having this discussion. You will see only what the Lexicons say. But where in Scripture does it say we can only understand God’s Word properly by looking to another language or a Lexicon?
     
  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    You are looking into another language. I’m looking into the original language. The definition of repent fits the usage of every scripture you posted.

    1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

    2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)

    Which verse doesn’t fit this definition?
     
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