Extensive salt deposits falsify the worldwide flood

Jet Black · Aug 16, 2003

JohnR7 said:
The salt around the great lakes area was most likely formed during the first three days of creation.

Now I know that ICR and AiG claim that these deposits are from some sort of hydrothermal orgin. However, that doesn't really work. There are no basalts or any other evidence of geothermal activity around these deposits. Many contain pollen and other contain salt varves indicating slow evaporation.

Emphasis mine.

complete with indications of slow evaporation and pollen? pollen is life John, it's not around for a couple of days. what about the indications of slow evaporation? if he wanted to he could have just put a huge cube of pure salt there, but he chooses to decieve us again. funny how the only supporting argument also supports that God is a liar. I suggest you read up on the processes that form these features and comment on how they might be wrong.

Jet Black · Aug 16, 2003

not to mention this:

When the Silurian paleogeography of the Michigan Basin is restored, thick semi-concentric barriers of coral reefs become very noticeable (Schreiber, 1988, p. 238-239). As evaporites formed in the Michigan Basin, massive reefs existed just to the east of Lower Michigan in Ontario, along the Ohio-Indiana border, along the Michigan-Indiana border and curving through what is now Lake Michigan and north into Upper Michigan. These reefs would have been ideal barriers to trap evaporating sea water in the Michigan Basin. Periodically, fresh seawater could have broken through or flowed over the barriers to recharge the brines.

coral reefs, yet another life form appear to have been the barrier which held the salt in. what did God do? leave a huge hole in the ground for a few days and then pop life in to die immediately and solidify? so now we have two examples of life having been there when it shouldn't have been 1) flowering plants and 2) coral reefs. why are these features there?

please remember that to address these things you need to take a really good look at them and think about them carefully. a one-line "oh it was probably put there on day three" argument does not account for all the evidence, and would simply create further problems with your own argument, and the integrity of God.

JohnR7 · Aug 16, 2003

Jet Black said:
complete with indications of slow evaporation and pollen? pollen is life John, it's not around for a couple of days.

Is it so much trouble for you to open up your Bible and read what it says? On the third day there was plant life. Although I do not know how the pollen would get into the salt deposits.

At this time the equator was closer to the great lakes area. It was on the forth day that the earth was tilted 23.5 degrees and we began to have seasons. The equator then moved south from the great lakes area.

The days are actually paired. Day one and two is paired together, day three and four are paired together. Day five and six are paired together.

what about the indications of slow evaporation?

I have not done a study on just how slow or how fast the evaporation would be. It does not really matter. Conditions had changed quite a bit in this area, so it could have been fast.

if he wanted to he could have just put a huge cube of pure salt there, but he chooses to decieve us again.

You are right about evolutionists being deceived. But it is not God that deceives them it is Satan, the father of lies. Even unregenerated mankind decieves themselves.

2 Tim. 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
So clearly you can see it is "evil men" who are deceived and who go about deceiving others.

funny how the only supporting argument also supports that God is a liar.

Funny that you should mention that. The devil is the god of this world is a liar. He is the father of liars.

2 Cor. 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So clearly people are getting lied to. But it is not christians who believe the lie.

JohnR7 · Aug 16, 2003

euphoric said:
Really, and it was created on top of many layers of rock that contain the fossils of dead organisms? So it is a great big gag then?

I do not know that much about geology and how rock was formed. Just little bits I have read here and there. You can talk to one of the geologists to explain to you how the organisms got into the rock. I do know about limestone. Is that what your talking about?

But there was plant life here on the third day, and the salt deposits were formed on the fourth day of creation. So it makes sense that they would be layered that way. If there are organic deposits under the salt, then those organisms must have been in the oceans before the fourth day, when the salt deposits were formed.

JohnR7 · Aug 16, 2003

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
I am still waiting for a YEC to explain how all that salt got deposited during a worldwide flood?

The "floods" came much later, you have your timeline all confused.

YEC does not change a THING. It would just mean that things happened VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, fast.

In other words. If you beleive in a literal 24 hour day. Then the salt deposts would have had to be formed in a day. A literal 24 hour day.

YEC does not change the events of creation at all. It only changes the timeline. If you ignore the timeline, then there is no conflict with the YEC people.

Dilandau · Aug 16, 2003

flood It's a star myth. It all has occured as constellations of stars. As described by Andis Kaulins: http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi146.htm

The actual flood perhaps has been there: http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi142.htm

an incident in the black sea region, that made the people move.

The rest is described all here: http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi71.htm

However the flood is also a Tarot topic, especially described on the gospel page of http://otaku.onlinehome.de/bible.html#zyxel

The Ark is the vessel. Your personality and body.

Frumious Bandersnatch · Aug 16, 2003

JohnR7 said:
The "floods" came much later, you have your timeline all confused.

YEC does not change a THING. It would just mean that things happened VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, fast.

In other words. If you beleive in a literal 24 hour day. Then the salt deposts would have had to be formed in a day. A literal 24 hour day.

YEC does not change the events of creation at all. It only changes the timeline. If you ignore the timeline, then there is no conflict with the YEC people.

John,

The point you are missing is the YECs claim that most of the sedimentary layers in the geologic column were deposited by the flood of Noah. I think this changes the "events of creation" quite a bit. There are thick salt layers that lay above layers that are supposed by YEC to be flood deposits and have other layers that are supposed by YEC to be flood deposits on top of them so they must also be flood deposits in the YEC framework.

Look at Glenn Morton's page on the geologic column.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/

He talks about Permian salt deposits.

The Opeche shale is of Permian age and overlies the Minnelusa. The interesting thing about the Opeche is that in the center of the basin, at its deepest part, it is salt - 300 feet of salt. Permian pollen is found in the salt, modern pollen is not found (Wilgus and Holser, 1984, p. 765,766). This bed has the appearance of a period of time in which the Williston Sea dried up, leaving its salt behind in the deepest parts of the basin as would be expected. The area of salt deposition is 188,400 square kilometers. Assuming that over this area the salt averages half that 300 feet(91 m) or averages 45 meters, then this deposit represents 9 trillion cubic meters of salt! With a density of 2160 kg/m^3 this represents the evaporation of 845 million cubic kilometers of seawater. This is 1/14 of the world's ocean water. This is hardly something to be expected in a global flood.

There are fossil containing layers above and below these salt deposits and this is true of many other salt deposits. Did God create these fossils in place just to fool us?

Did God create salt layers that look like deposits with varves and pollens just fool us? Did He create deposits that look exactly like what we would expect from the evaporation, over long periods of time, of trapped seas just to fool us? Did he place these salt layers with fossil containing layers above and below them just to fool us into thinking the earth is old and that these deposits formed over hundreds of millions of years?

The Michigan deposits are paleozoic, deposited from 600 million to 250 million years ago. If they were made during the first 3 days of creation they were made by a trickster God who wanted to fool us into think they were deposited over millions of years.

I wonder why you are so quick to defend the YECs in some cases when you are an OEC? Do you just have this irrestible urge to attack "evolutionists" no matter what they are saying?

I am still waiting for a YEC to explain how these massive salt layers end up in among layers that YECs claim were deposited by a year-long worldwide flood.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

JohnR7 · Aug 16, 2003

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
The point you are missing is the YECs claim that most of the sedimentary layers in the geologic column were deposited by the flood of Noah.

Sounds like a straw man arguement to me. You tell me what you think they believe, then you falsify what they think they believe.

The Michigan deposits are paleozoic, deposited from 600 million to 250 million years ago. If they were made during the first 3 days of creation they were made by a trickster God who wanted to fool us into think they were deposited over millions of years.

There is no trick. You believe day three took place between 600 million and 250 million years ago. So according to your theory, day three lasted for 350 million years. They think that day three took place 6000 years ago, and it lasted for 24 hours.

I wonder why you are so quick to defend the YECs in some cases when you are an OEC? Do you just have this irrestible urge to attack "evolutionists" no matter what they are saying?

We believe the GAP theory. I am just pointing out the errors in what your saying. No one seems to want to talk about the GAP or the OEC. But in attacking the YEC you keep showing errors in what your saying, and so I keep pointing them out to you.

I am still waiting for a YEC to explain how these massive salt layers end up in among layers that YECs claim were deposited by a year-long worldwide flood.

I keep waiting for a YEC to show up that believe what you claim they believe that a flood creates salt deposits. When everything we know about it is that salt deposits are created when water evaporates.

The only thing the "flood" left behind in the great lakes area was about 12 to 15 feet of muck.

Frumious Bandersnatch · Aug 16, 2003

Sounds like a straw man arguement to me. You tell me what you think they believe, then you falsify what they think they believe.

I am presenting the global flood as put forth by AiG and ICR and other YEC organizations. Nearly all YECs claim that all rocks above "Genesis Rocks", which are not sedimentary and below a certain level which they will not identify specifically, are flood deposits.

There is no trick. You believe day three took place between 600 million and 250 million years ago. So according to your theory, day three lasted for 350 million years. They think that day three took place 6000 years ago, and it lasted for 24 hours.

But they think most of the geologic column was laid down about 1,500 years later during a year-long flood and not created on day three. If you think that evaporation of shallow seas led to the formation of salt deposits over millions of years during God's paleozoic day three then there may not be a problem with science

Your problem seems to be that you are mindlessly defending the YEC model without really knowing anything about it. There is no strawman here.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Cantuar · Aug 16, 2003

John, are you saying that there are no animal fossils below the salt layers, just plant fossils?

JohnR7 · Aug 17, 2003

Cantuar said:
John, are you saying that there are no animal fossils below the salt layers, just plant fossils?

There are going to be fossils below the salt, because there use to be something living in that ocean. Then when the ocean evaporated the salt was left. I mean by ocean that the great lakes use to be a salt water. Right now they are kind of a chemical sesspool. They are filled with industral waste and in some cases raw sewage.

I use to go fishing in Lake Erie when I was a kid. Then one year we went to go fishing and all the fish were dead on the shore. Over the years they have managed to get the pollution down enough that the fish can live in there again now. But it is still not safe to swim in. Last I heard it has been quite a while now sense the river has caught on fire.

Jet Black · Aug 17, 2003

JohnR7 said:
There are going to be fossils below the salt, because there use to be something living in that ocean. Then when the ocean evaporated the salt was left. I mean by ocean that the great lakes use to be a salt water. Right now they are kind of a chemical sesspool. They are filled with industral waste and in some cases raw sewage.

even before the first three days of creation? birds and stuffweren't around til day 5, and animals weren't there til day 6. even plants weren't around until after he had already made dry land and so on.

Dilandau · Aug 17, 2003

The top news from the flood is presented by Dr. Andis Kaulins:

http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi34.htm

The Sumerian city of Ur "was founded ...at some time
in the 4th millennium BC ... by settlers thought to have been from
northern Mesopotamia, farmers still in the Chalcolithic phase of culture.
There is evidence that their occupation was ended by a flood,
formerly thought to be the one described in Genesis."
- Encyclopaedia Britannica, "Ur".

JohnR7 · Aug 17, 2003

Jet Black said:
even before the first three days of creation? birds and stuffweren't around til day 5, and animals weren't there til day 6. even plants weren't around until after he had already made dry land and so on.

The organisms that make up the organic deposits were much more simple. They had a simple skelton, but that was about it.

What point are you trying to make anyways? I do not question that there are huge deposits of organic material. Limestone(chalk), Oil, Coal. Then you have a lot of sand that took time to make, you have the salt deposits. All things that had to have taken time to form. I just do not see how they could be formed overnight.

Geology is strong evidence for an older earth.

Jet Black · Aug 17, 2003

JohnR7 said:
The organisms that make up the organic deposits were much more simple. They had a simple skelton, but that was about it.

What point are you trying to make anyways? I do not question that there are huge deposits of organic material. Limestone(chalk), Oil, Coal. Then you have a lot of sand that took time to make, you have the salt deposits. All things that had to have taken time to form. I just do not see how they could be formed overnight.

Geology is strong evidence for an older earth.

you were suggesting that maybe the salt was laid down in the first three days though. it can't have been in this case.

JohnR7 (post #18) said:
The salt around the great lakes area was most likely formed during the first three days of creation.

JohnR7 · Aug 17, 2003

Jet Black said:
you were suggesting that maybe the salt was laid down in the first three days though. it can't have been in this case.

"With the coming of the Paleozoic Era, most of central North America was flooded again and again by marine seas, which were inhabited by a multitude of life forms, including corals, crinoids, brachiopods and mollusks. The seas deposited lime silts, clays, sand and salts, which eventually consolidated into limestone, shales, sandstone, halite and gypsum."

http://www.epa.gov/glnpo/atlas/glat-ch2.html

The kind of sea life that you are thinking about did not come about until the forth day. That would be AFTER the salt deposits were formed. This would be half way though the PALEOZOIC period. So that the Paleozoic period actually makes up the third and the forth day that we find in the first chapter of Genesis.

This is all pretty basic, I think your just to lazy to do your research.

Dayton · Aug 17, 2003

The salt was not directly deposited by the Flood, but it was left in some areas after the water evaporated.

There was no paleozoic or "650 million years". God Created the earth in six 24 hour days 6-10,000 years ago.

JohnR7 · Aug 17, 2003

Dayton said:
There was no paleozoic or "650 million years". God Created the earth in six 24 hour days 6-10,000 years ago.

650 million years or 24 hours does not change what happened. The events remain consistaint. They only thing that changes is the amount of time you think it took for this event to take place.

In this case it means you believe that all the water in the great lakes evaporated and left salt deposits up to 6000 feet thick in 24 hours. That is a lot of evaporation to take place in a 24 hour period of time.

It must have been a very interesting 24 hour day, because there are many layers to the salt, with different things mixed in with the salt at different layers.

Now if you were to say that a day in Genesis is 1000 years in length. Then at least you have a little bit bit of time for the water to evaporate and the salt deposits to form.

Frumious Bandersnatch · Aug 17, 2003

Dayton said:
The salt was not directly deposited by the Flood, but it was left in some areas after the water evaporated.

There was no paleozoic or "650 million years". God Created the earth in six 24 hour days 6-10,000 years ago.

The problem is that the salt layers are interspersed between layers that supposedly are flood deposits and not on top of all flood deposits as the should be if your claim were correct.
This is true both in Michigan and in North Dakota and in many other places around the world.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/

It would require water about 10,000 feet deep to evaporate to produce a 400 foot thick salt layer quickly enough to be in between other flood layers. This simply couldn't happen during a year that the entire earth was supposedly under water.

Now if you takes the "days" to be hundreds of millions of years and allow natural evaporation to produce the salt and restrict Noah's flood to the Middle East as JohnR7 does then these particular problems go away as do problems with biogeograpy and varves and palesols and many other falsifications of the flood of Noah as a worldwide and recent event. Young Earth Creationism was falsied long ago and has been falsified over and over.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

JohnR7 · Aug 17, 2003

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
Young Earth Creationism was falsied long ago and has been falsified over and over.

Not exactly, you see you claim that your trying to falsify the world wide flood. Or more exactly, your trying to falsify that the highlands were underwater, because everyone seems to accept that the low lands, world wide were flooded. Ok, so lets say you accomplish your objective. Then all of a sudden you say: "Young Earth Creationism was falsied".

Now, what was your objective? To falsify the world wide flood, or was your objective to really falisify Young Earth Creationism? Because just to falsify a world wide flood does not falsify Young Earth Creationism. In order to do that, you have to falsify that the earth is YOUNG. But you say, I have all this evidence for an old earth. Yes, but what about the earth we know today. Even if there was a old earth, the earth we know today is very young. It began at the end of the last ice age about 14,000 years ago. Pretty much as the Bible says.

In fact, the Bible tells us about the old earth, and the young earth at the same time. That is why both theorys are true. Only I believe the days in Genesis represent 1000 years and are not a literal 24 hour day. The world as we know it today, has been around for about 12 to 14 thousand years. 13,970 years, to be exact.

Extensive salt deposits falsify the worldwide flood

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