Evolution and Genesis account of creation

[dad]

First off, I'm glad I found a forum specifically dedicated to this topic. Its something that I've been wanting to discuss.

How do you line up Evolution with what the Bible says in Genesis about creation.
Some Christians say Genesis should not be read literally or that its like a parable or allegory. And the language used in Genesis is written in a poetic way, similar to Psalms.

To me if evolution is fact then Adam evolved and there was no garden of eden or where did original sin occur and hence the remainder of Bible story does not line up or Jesus being crucified for mankind's 'original sin'

Interested to hear you ideas.

I line it up like this, God was right and science is wrong.

 

[dad]

Theology won't save you. Loving Him and loving others will save.

Actually, no. That will not save anyone any more than burning their body, or donating to the poor. Believing in Jesus saves us.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Theology won't save you. Loving Him and loving others will save.

Actually, no.

Jesus disagrees with you.
Matthew 22:37Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. [38] This is the greatest and the first commandment. [39] And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.
...
Matthew 25:44 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
...
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
...
Between a theologically-correct Levite, and a heretic who cared for others, Jesus gave this advice:
Luke 10:36Which of these three, in thy opinion, was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers? [37] But he said: He that shewed mercy to him. And Jesus said to him: Go, and do thou in like manner.

That will not save anyone any more than burning their body, or donating to the poor. Believing in Jesus saves us.

I suppose one has to believe in God to love Him, no? But believing is not sufficient:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[dad]

Barbarian observes:
Theology won't save you. Loving Him and loving others will save.



Jesus disagrees with you.
Matthew 22:37Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. [38] This is the greatest and the first commandment. [39] And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.
...

The law and prophets depend on that but not salvation. The reason we love Him is because He first loved us, and for what He did for us.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

That was not why they were saved or blessed. They are only saved by the blood of Jesus. Consequently they may do some fairly good deeds. Jesus did say, if you recall no man comes to the Father but by me. There is no other way. If some newly saved folks in the very end do some feeble good works, great, God in His mercy will count it a great thing for their reward. NOT for their salvation.


...

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

It is a matter of the heart and asking Him sincerely, not just mouthing words like lord lord. But in the very end whoever will eve call on His name, Jesus, will be saved. Context.
...

Between a theologically-correct Levite, and a heretic who cared for others, Jesus gave this advice:
Luke 10:36Which of these three, in thy opinion, was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers? [37] But he said: He that shewed mercy to him. And Jesus said to him: Go, and do thou in like manner.

great, that did not supersede the often given advice He gave that only He was the way and truth and light. It is great advice, but not something that saves us eternally. If we love we are close to the kingdom, but only by receiving Jesus are we in it.

I suppose one has to believe in God to love Him, no? But believing is not sufficient:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The devils are not saved though and we are if we believe! The point there is that we ought to get off our derrieres and do some good after being saved...NOT that works save us, or save devils!

 

[The Barbarian]

The law and prophets depend on that but not salvation.

Jesus disagrees with you:
Matthew 25:44 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

I suppose one has to believe in God to love Him, no? But believing is not sufficient:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The devils are not saved though and we are if we believe!

James says otherwise. I believe it. You should too.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The point there is that we ought to get off our derrieres and do some good after being saved...NOT that works save us

James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Get with God's way. It's the only way.

 

[dad]

Jesus disagrees with you:
Matthew 25:44 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

Since they were saved, that is what we would expect. What, you thought alms saved you?

I suppose one has to believe in God to love Him, no? But believing is not sufficient:

For what? Salvation? Yes it is! It is not sufficient for (a 'good' Christian example kind of) life and for believers though, in general. We are rewarded for works, saved by grace alone.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Faith without works is inactive faith. Dead faith. However, God is working on us, so maybe people will do better before they die! In any case they are saved anyhow.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Joh 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Yes I do! Do you see how he is saved by faith alone and not by works! Many are saved but not all have a super just life.

 

[The Barbarian]

We are rewarded for works, saved by grace alone.

God disagrees with you. In Matthew, He says that your works will determine whether you spend eternity with Him, or with Satan. You best listen to Him.

 

[dad]

God disagrees with you. In Matthew, He says that your works will determine whether you spend eternity with Him, or with Satan. You best listen to Him.

No, nothing like that. The will of the Father is that people listen to and come to Jesus. His work is that we believe in Jesus. Only Accepting the free gift of Jesus saves us. We cannot save ourselves by own own goodness or works in any possible way. Forget giving a glass of water to someone as a saving work. Even if you gave all your goods to the poor and sacrificed your life, you still would not be worthy. Only Jesus, who is God could have done it for us. Any and all works are after the fact, and hopefully a result of having Christ in you.

I kid you not.

 

[The Barbarian]

God disagrees with you. In Matthew, He says that your works will determine whether you spend eternity with Him, or with Satan. You best listen to Him.

No, nothing like that.

Well, let's take a look...

Matthew 25:44 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

Sorry, He says you're wrong.

 

[dad]

God disagrees with you. In Matthew, He says that your works will determine whether you spend eternity with Him, or with Satan. You best listen to Him.

Your works do not determine salvation or where you spend eternity. Only choosing Jesus or rejecting Him does that. Works determine rewards in heaven for believers, not whether they go to heaven.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

Sorry, He says you're wrong.

The only reason He says come to heaven is because they believe in Jesus. In the case of Matt 25, it was talking about nations in the endtime being separated.

Look and see..

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another,

The them refers to what? Nations. Nations, then, if they take care of those folks that choose Jesus, will be treated well. So there are different levels of judgment, individual, nation, etc.

The people in those nations still have to stand on their own feet before God, and we know from the rest of the bible that this means choosing Jesus (repenting, coming to Him etc)

We also know that works do not save us. 'NOT of works, lest any man should boast' In fact Paul spells out how works are totally useless toward salvation. ( ! Cor 13)

 

[The Barbarian]

Your works do not determine salvation or where you spend eternity.

Matthew 25:44 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

Sorry, He says you're wrong.

Works determine rewards in heaven for believers, not whether they go to heaven.

See above. He says you're wrong. No way to dodge it.

 

[dad]

Matthew 25:44 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

Sorry, He says you're wrong.



See above. He says you're wrong. No way to dodge it.

1 Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Your works and goodness are like used menstral cloths.

Isa 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

That does not mean that there may not be a special blessing to nations and individuals who support believers in that very end time. However, if they are saved it is not because of their works. Perhaps in that short period spoken about, standing up for Jesus and His people shows that a person's heart is right, and repentant, so those same folks whose deeds are mentioned are saved. In any case thankfully we have the rest of the bible to weigh and measure claims. Yours have been weighed in the balances and are found wanting.

 

[The Barbarian]

and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Yep. God saves you, based on what you do, as He told you in Matthew 25. You can have all the faith possible, and if you don't act on it, you are lost.

 

[dad]

Yep. God saves you, based on what you do, as He told you in Matthew 25. You can have all the faith possible, and if you don't act on it, you are lost.

No, He saves us based on what we believe..Jesus! If any man's work is burned up (even if their works are so small and pitiful or misdirected etc etc) YET he will still be saved!!!

1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[bhillyard]

And thus were First World War naval battles. A salvo of texts from one side, replied to by a salvo from the other. And so on..

 

[The Barbarian]

No, He saves us based on what we believe..Jesus! If any man's work is burned up (even if their works are so small and pitiful or misdirected etc etc) YET he will still be saved!!!

I can believe you or I can believe God. Not really a choice, is it?

 

[JDD_III]

I can believe you or I can believe God. Not really a choice, is it?

Tell me about the works that the thief on the cross did?

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Unless you believe that Jesus is God (the I AM) who died for your lack of perfectly keeping His law, you will die in your sins.

John 8:24
"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Your works of "love" or any other work cannot save you. The Scriptures could not be clearer on this matter. Further, this faith (in Jesus who is God incarnate and paid the price we could not pay) itself is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

If your works save you, you would have cause to boast.

So no need for works as it's all of grace, right? May it never be so!

Romans 3:31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Galatians 5:13-15
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

This is the point James makes. Faith without works is dead - true faith was never there to begin with.

- God grants saving faith to the elect
- None granted faith are lost (John 18:9) - as faith itself is a gift of God it cannot fail
- True saving and effectual faith produces works / fruit (cf James)
- The one that loves God with all their heart accepts His free gift of His Son's sacrifice, accepts in humility His assessment of their inability to save themself through works, and lives by true faith

If you are relying on your human works of perceived "love" or any "works" you have rejected God's gift, His Word, and are living from pride that believes you can do something to be right with God apart from the blood of Christ. Sadly such a person is not part of the Kingdom of God and does not know Him.

True salvation produces works; no work can produce salvation. The Word of God is very clear on that.

 

[The Barbarian]

Tell me about the works that the thief on the cross did?

An act of contrition, and a call on Jesus to remember him. Are you suggesting that God would condemn you if you weren't able to do good? C'mon. That excuse won't fly.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I don't think it will go well, if one shows up at judgement, and when placed with the goats, says, "what about the good thief? He didn't do anything!"

If you are relying on your human faith, you have rejected God's direction to do for the least among you. And that puts you in the goats.

Your pride that believes "Lord, Lord" is enough to be right with God apart from the blood of Christ, even when He explicitly tells you that you must do the will of the father. Sadly such a person is not part of the Kingdom of God and does not know Him.

Think it over. It might matter a lot.

 

[JDD_III]

An act of contrition, and a call on Jesus to remember him. Are you suggesting that God would condemn you if you weren't able to do good? C'mon. That excuse won't fly.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I don't think it will go well, if one shows up at judgement, and when placed with the goats, says, "what about the good thief? He didn't do anything!"

If you are relying on your human faith, you have rejected God's direction to do for the least among you. And that puts you in the goats.

Your pride that believes "Lord, Lord" is enough to be right with God apart from the blood of Christ, even when He explicitly tells you that you must do the will of the father. Sadly such a person is not part of the Kingdom of God and does not know Him.

Think it over. It might matter a lot.

You haven't read anything I wrote honestly and like the Bible you have completely taken my comments out of context in isolation rather than the whole.

I have had grace to do the will of the Father, have you?

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[The Barbarian]

You haven't read anything I wrote honestly and like the Bible you have completely taken my comments out of context

The Bible didn't take your words out of context. It's just that God doesn't agree with what you said. He makes it perfectly clear that your actions determine whether you go with Him or with Satan. No ifs, ands, or buts.

If you do this, you will have eternal life. As Jesus say, not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter heaven by those who do the will of the Father. Do you?