Evolution and Genesis account of creation

[NobleMouse]

I have already answered those questions but evidently you did not understand. Do you believe the Jesus, Lazureth miracle was figurative of the death burial and resurrection of Christ?

Lazarus being raised may have been a foreshadowing of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection... but it may also just been a testimony to His power and manifestation of His glory. The Bible also gives accounts of others being raised from the dead by prophets and Jesus' disciples and I don't believe these are all to give a symbolic meaning to a future event or events. Also, if an event is figurative of a future event that will occur, that really only makes sense if the first event actually happened.

So, you do believe the miracle of God turning Moses' staff into a serpent, then back into a staff (and this wasn't just in front of Moses, but also in front of Pharaoh and his accompaniment)?

Then, you don't believe God made the heavens and and earth in 6 days, right?

So my question is where in Genesis to you go from not believing to... believing?

 

[The Barbarian]

So my question is where in Genesis to you go from not believing to... believing?

Christians don't agree on that. Some actually think of it as a literal history. Most don't. And there are all sorts of varieties of opinion. Here's the key; they are all Christians.

The essential doctrines:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.

Notice that "Catholic" in this case, is not referring to the Roman Catholic church only, but to all who accept Christ as savior and follow this creed.

 

[misput]

Lazarus being raised may have been a foreshadowing of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection... but it may also just been a testimony to His power and manifestation of His glory. The Bible also gives accounts of others being raised from the dead by prophets and Jesus' disciples and I don't believe these are all to give a symbolic meaning to a future event or events. Also, if an event is figurative of a future event that will occur, that really only makes sense if the first event actually happened.

May. You find it tough to deal with symbology in the scripture, to bad, you are missing a lot.

So, you do believe the miracle of God turning Moses' staff into a serpent, then back into a staff (and this wasn't just in front of Moses, but also in front of Pharaoh and his accompaniment)?

Yes and I see the serpent as symbolic of sin that is devouring Pharaoh, you know, like the serpent of sin devoured Adam and the serpent on the pole representing Christ on the cross/pole taking sin on Himself and everyone looking on that to be healed. See what you are missing when you refuse to be open to symbology.

Then, you don't believe God made the heavens and and earth in 6 days, right?

I believe He could have made it in 6 seconds, 6 hours, 6 days or 6 million years, it really does not matter.

So my question is where in Genesis to you go from not believing to... believing?

I told you I have already answered this but you seem to be too dull of hearing to understand.

 

[NobleMouse]

May. You find it tough to deal with symbology in the scripture, to bad, you are missing a lot.

Yes and I see the serpent as symbolic of sin that is devouring Pharaoh, you know, like the serpent of sin devoured Adam and the serpent on the pole representing Christ on the cross/pole taking sin on Himself and everyone looking on that to be healed. See what you are missing when you refuse to be open to symbology.

I believe He could have made it in 6 seconds, 6 hours, 6 days or 6 million years, it really does not matter.

I told you I have already answered this but you seem to be too dull of hearing to understand.

Sorry I could not understand you, but thank you for your time. Admittedly though, you've been inconsistent: first insisting what science says and evolution are the truth, then saying you believe what the bible says, then not directly answering questions (see your remark "6 seconds, 6 hours, 6 days, etc..."). Maybe someone else here benefitted from what you wrote.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I believe He could have made it in 6 seconds, 6 hours, 6 days or 6 million years, it really does not matter.

True, what you believe does not matter.
What Yahweh Says is what matters.
Yahweh does not say what you say.
"He could have" is not authority for anything.
"He Says" is TRUTH. Plain , Simple, Truth, with No Darkness , with no spot nor wrinkle.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="NobleMouse, post: 73511943, member: 402214"]Lazarus being raised may have been a foreshadowing of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection... but it may also just been a testimony to His power and manifestation of His glory. The Bible also gives accounts of others being raised from the dead by prophets and Jesus' disciples and I don't believe these are all to give a symbolic meaning to a future event or events. Also, if an event is figurative of a future event that will occur, that really only makes sense if the first event actually happened.

So, you do believe the miracle of God turning Moses' staff into a serpent, then back into a staff (and this wasn't just in front of Moses, but also in front of Pharaoh and his accompaniment)?

Then, you don't believe God made the heavens and and earth in 6 days, right?

So my question is where in Genesis to you go from not believing to... believing?[/QUOTE
=============================
Rather not believing God's Word, not having faith in God Himself as well as His Word.
Not in Genesis did the deception of men over all the world be so great as today -
it was in the last few hundred years the deception has grown so fast and over all the earth,
yes, as written in the Apocalypse (Revelatino) Revealed from the Father through the Angel He Sent to John the Apostle.

 

[misput]

Sorry I could not understand you, but thank you for your time. Admittedly though, you've been inconsistent: first insisting what science says and evolution are the truth, then saying you believe what the bible says, then not directly answering questions (see your remark "6 seconds, 6 hours, 6 days, etc..."). Maybe someone else here benefitted from what you wrote.

Its good to see your judgement of me has changed from unbelieving to inconsistent. You as well as others on here need to lighten up and understand folks with different opinions can still be brothers, then maybe we could have much better discussions : )

 

[JDD_III]

Of course it matters what we believe even on the non-essential doctrines of theology. To worship God you must do so in spirit and in truth; believing and proclaiming untruth about God may not mean you are unsaved but is robbing God of His glory and not true worship, which he desires.

One of my favourite quotes is that of the great and late RC Sproul:

"If we are to desire God it is imperative that we desire the God that is and not one of our own imagination."

 

[The Barbarian]

Of course it matters what we believe even on the non-essential doctrines of theology.

No. God makes it very clear what determines your eternal home, and a detailed theology is not one of those things. Theology will not save you; loving God and loving your fellow man will save you, if Jesus can be believed.

To worship God you must do so in spirit and in truth; believing and proclaiming untruth about God may not mean you are unsaved but is robbing God of His glory and not true worship, which he desires.

Not the God of the NT.

One of my favourite quotes is that of the great and late RC Sproul:

"If we are to desire God it is imperative that we desire the God that is and not one of our own imagination."

Do you think the God of the Good Samaritan was imaginary?

Think.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No matter what the so-called "issues" and/or doctrines or teachings about evolution rejeting Genesis ;

"Nobody else can give you a clean heart but God."

a few more quotes from Leonard Ravenhill >

"There's one thing we need above everything else; it's something we don't talk about these days. We need a mighty avalanche of conviction of sin."

"We're living in an unprecedented day (when) evil is no longer evil. We've changed the terminology— iniquity is now infirmity; wickedness is now weakness; devilry is now deficiency."

"A Roman Catholic priest startled us not very long ago by saying that for 25 years he had been sitting in the confessional, listening to the confessions of men and women. He said he heard (of) murders, rapes, adultery, and fornication. He met men and women who have broken every law of God and man with repetition. But never in 25 years had anyone ever confessed to be covetous. Covetousness! We wrap it up and call it ambition. We may call it business or something, but right down in the middle of those things is a rotten word called "covetousness." Paul called it idolatry!"

"The Church used to be a lifeboat rescuing the perishing. Now she is a cruise ship recruiting the promising."

www . truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/sermons/leonard-ravenhill.php?cmtx_sort=1

 

[The Barbarian]

No matter what the so-called "issues" and/or doctrines or teachings about evolution rejeting Genesis ;

Evolution can't reject Genesis. They had the same Author, after all.

"We're living in an unprecedented day (when) evil is no longer evil. We've changed the terminology— iniquity is now infirmity; wickedness is now weakness; devilry is now deficiency."

Evil is all of those things; weak, infirm, deficient.

"A Roman Catholic priest startled us not very long ago by saying that for 25 years he had been sitting in the confessional, listening to the confessions of men and women. He said he heard (of) murders, rapes, adultery, and fornication. He met men and women who have broken every law of God and man with repetition. But never in 25 years had anyone ever confessed to be covetous. Covetousness! We wrap it up and call it ambition. We may call it business or something, but right down in the middle of those things is a rotten word called "covetousness." Paul called it idolatry!"

Good point.

"The Church used to be a lifeboat rescuing the perishing. Now she is a cruise ship recruiting the promising."

Maybe some churches. The Church is still for sinners who want to get better.

 

[JDD_III]

No. God makes it very clear what determines your eternal home, and a detailed theology is not one of those things. Theology will not save you; loving God and loving your fellow man will save you, if Jesus can be believed.

You are misrepresenting what I said. I said it matters what you believe even for non-essential doctrines. Non-essential = not essential for salvation. It does matter what you believe and proclaim on things about God that are not essential doctrines for salvation. If you love God with all your heart mind and soul you will desire to know and love exactly who He is. In doing so you will produce greater works and fruit which will lead to a greater reward in heaven and a greater ability to serve. Not everyone in heaven will have the same reward or capacity to serve.

[QUOTEThe Barbarian, post: 73515112, member: 7989"]Not the God of the NT.[/QUOTE]
John 4:23

The God of the OT and the NT are one and the same.

If God isn't concerned with us having a correct theological view of Him then half of the NT is unnecessary.

Do you think the God of the Good Samaritan was imaginary?

I think the Good Samaritan is a parable.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
No. God makes it very clear what determines your eternal home, and a detailed theology is not one of those things. Theology will not save you; loving God and loving your fellow man will save you, if Jesus can be believed.

You are misrepresenting what I said. I said it matters what you believe even for non-essential doctrines. Non-essential = not essential for salvation.

What matters to you besides salvation?

It does matter what you believe and proclaim on things about God that are not essential doctrines for salvation.

In the sense that (for example) YE creationism often repells people who might otherwise come to Him.

If you love God with all your heart mind and soul you will desire to know and love exactly who He is.

He is neither creationism nor evolution. He doesn't care what you think of those things.

To worship God you must do so in spirit and in truth; believing and proclaiming untruth about God may not mean you are unsaved but is robbing God of His glory and not true worship, which he desires.

[QUOTEThe Barbarian, post: 73515112, member: 7989"]Not the God of the NT.[/QUOTE]

The God of the OT and the NT are one and the same.

That's good that you see this. So there you are.

If God isn't concerned with us having a correct theological view of Him then half of the NT is unnecessary.

There is very little theology therein, but a great deal about how to love God and love one's fellow man.

Barbarian asks:
Do you think the God of the Good Samaritan was imaginary?

I think the Good Samaritan is a parable.

When Jesus advised His people to emulate a heretic who cared for others, rather than a theologically-correct levite, who did not, you think He was wrong?

 

[JDD_III]

What matters to you besides salvation?

Knowing my Saviour? Being true to His Word? Sanctification? Having the greatest capacity and depth to serve in eternity? Do these things not matter to you or do you only care about scraping through the Heavenly gate?

In the sense that (for example) YE creationism often repells people who might otherwise come to Him.

People need to accept God for who He is, but no-one will have an excuse. Jesus asked people to leave their families, give up their theologies to follow Him. Equally, faith originates from God. The sad thing here is you are looking at this in a man-centric manner, which robs God of His power and glory (by the way none of my posts here have tried to support one viewpoint over the other, rather make the point that what you believe does matter).

He is neither creationism nor evolution. He doesn't care what you think of those things.

A good and pure and Holy God does care about error and a wrong view of Him. He overlooks those and forgives, but He does care. Anything that fails to give the correct glory to God is sin and of course God cares about sin. Jesus died for that.

There is very little theology therein, but a great deal about how to love God and love one's fellow man.

Sounds like you have barely read any of Paul's epistles. Romans, Galatians, Corinthians are just a few examples that go into correct theology.

When Jesus advised His people to emulate a heretic who cared for others, rather than a theologically-correct levite, who did not, you think He was wrong?

You've missed the point of the parable - the Levite was not theologically correct. Correct theology should always result in correct action. The two are inextricably linked. However you can have appearance of either, but actually have none.

 

[The Barbarian]

Knowing my Saviour? Being true to His Word? Sanctification? Having the greatest capacity and depth to serve in eternity? Do these things not matter to you or do you only care about scraping through the Heavenly gate?

You're treating scripture like a lawyer going over a contract, looking for loopholes. Why not just trust Jesus when he tells you that everything else depends on loving God and loving your fellow man? Theology won't save you. Loving Him and loving others will save.

The sad thing here is you are looking at this in a man-centric manner

I'm looking at it in a Christ-centric manner. You're using the same argument as the Pharisees.

A good and pure and Holy God does care about error and a wrong view of Him.

Odd then, that Jesus tells us to emulate a heretic who cares for his fellow man, rather than a Levite, whose theology is sound, but does not care.

Sounds like you have barely read any of Paul's epistles.
1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

In the Good Samaritan, you've missed the point of the parable - Jesus specifically used a Levite because they were known to be theologically correct. His point was that theology will not save you, but love will. If you understood what Paul is saying, you would know this.

If you read what Jesus says in Matthew, He makes it very clear how He will separate the sheep from the goats. And it's not by theology. It's by whether or nor you were charitable to your fellow man. Listen to Him.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The Levite was a theologian, and knew scripture. But he had no works. His faith was real, but it was dead. The Samaritan was a heretic, but he loved God and he loved his fellow man. Jesus tells us to be like the Samaritan.

Instead of looking on scripture as a legal document, think of it as careful guidance from a parent who loves you. And then you'll understand.

 

[JDD_III]

You're treating scripture like a lawyer going over a contract, looking for loopholes. Why not just trust Jesus when he tells you that everything else depends on loving God and loving your fellow man? Theology won't save you. Loving Him and loving others will save.



I'm looking at it in a Christ-centric manner. You're using the same argument as the Pharisees.



Odd then, that Jesus tells us to emulate a heretic who cares for his fellow man, rather than a Levite, whose theology is sound, but does not care.

Sounds like you have barely read any of Paul's epistles.
1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

In the Good Samaritan, you've missed the point of the parable - Jesus specifically used a Levite because they were known to be theologically correct. His point was that theology will not save you, but love will. If you understood what Paul is saying, you would know this.

If you read what Jesus says in Matthew, He makes it very clear how He will separate the sheep from the goats. And it's not by theology. It's by whether or nor you were charitable to your fellow man. Listen to Him.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The Levite was a theologian, and knew scripture. But he had no works. His faith was real, but it was dead. The Samaritan was a heretic, but he loved God and he loved his fellow man. Jesus tells us to be like the Samaritan.

Instead of looking on scripture as a legal document, think of it as careful guidance from a parent who loves you. And then you'll understand.

We have a fundamental misalignment and disagreement on what the Bible says and probably the doctrine of Salvation. My purpose here is not to have an argument or continue to debate where it is clear you have no desire to consider this more, and I have no desire to disregard the wealth of doctrine espoused by the Scriptures.

For the sake of those wanting to learn and grow and reading this, I repeat my initial point. Whilst it does not matter to salvation what you believe on doctrines/matters not essential to salvation, it does matter in general to God and ultimately to how your eternity will look like (not where you will end up, but in what capacity you will be able to serve for eternity) and also to your faithful witness (which is love towards God and your neighbour). The Bible is very clear on that.

Let me also be clear that I am not saying doctrine/theology is greater than deed. Far from it. Correct doctrine and theology leads to greater action. This is the point of The Good Samaritan parable, the point James makes. You cannot have real genuine saving faith if it is not accompanied by good works because true saving faith results in good works. Dead faith is not saving and is not real faith at all. Faith is a gift from God, and any gift from God is effectual.

Many might profess to love God and their neighbour, but if they do not love the right, true God and accept Jesus as their God, Lord and Saviour, they will die in their sins. That requires a correct understanding of God and His standards and how you can attain to righteousness not on your own but only by Him and His Sacrifice. The Good Samaritan was a great example of how Jesus was pointing out that those that THOUGHT they knew the law and were thought of as "theologically" correct were incorrect because they ring-fenced their "neighbour" as those immediate that agreed with their religion and religious practices. Jesus in this parable did not say that the Samaritan was going to Heaven and the Levite was not, He was illustrating a point that was quite controversial to the audience.

But yes, you can have all of your theology right but not have saving faith and die in your sins. Equally you can have very little theology right, just the essentials and be saved from your sins. HOWEVER, that does not mean that what your theology on the non-essential matters is does not matter. It does matter to God. However of course God desires that we love Him and our neighbour and show this love. Both things can be and are true at the same time. This is my point, which should be very clear to anyone who is not looking to patronize and argue.

 

[The Barbarian]

We have a fundamental misalignment and disagreement on what the Bible says and probably the doctrine of Salvation.

I just showed you what it says. Believe it; don't believe it. Doesn't matter, that's still what it says.

Many might profess to love God and their neighbour, but if they do not love the right, true God and accept Jesus as their God, Lord and Saviour, they will die in their sins.

If so, Jesus was misleading those he told to emulate the Samaritan, who didn't even have a clear understanding of God.

Jesus in this parable did not say that the Samaritan was going to Heaven

Actually, He did.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He says that when He separates the sheep from the goats, some of the saved won't even understand why they are saved. Theology does not save. Loving God and loving one's fellow man saves.

If you get a bigger house in heaven than I do, that's of no consequence to me at all. To be eternally with Him makes anything else pointless.

 

[dad]

wow thats an amazing amount of different belief's, interpretation, acceptance of literal vs allegorical Genesis account.
And everyone has a Bible verse to backup their view on how they want to interpret it.

I'm still reading and investigating this and will make up my mind one way or another.
On the one hand evolution is at this stage undeniable fact. It is testable and used to model and predict gene behavior and improve treatments.
On the other hand Genesis is open to interpretations (as I've seen in this forum alone). It will come down to 'Faith' alone on this matter.
At this stage I will keep science and bible separate. One is used to understand the world around us and use that knowledge for betterment of humanity while the other is to feed the soul, spiritual growth and life after.

I have found that seemingly most folks that do not believe in a real Adam and Eve, also do not believe in a real flood.

 

[dad]

I just want to say that, we are adults here. We can put on our big boy pants and still be Christians while simultaneously recognizing that women aren't made of rib bones and snakes dont speak human language.

We shouldn't trap ourselves in strange 6000 year old world's with vegetarian tyranasaurs on a boat full of animals for a year, just because its difficult to not always have clear answers about existance.

And its ok to acknowledge that there are some things that we don't really understand about the universe and our place in it. It's ok to say "I don't know".

And it's ok if...our understanding of the afterlife isn't served to us on a silver platter. It's ok that where we go when we die, isn't crystal clear.

It's going to be ok because it's all in God's hands.

We can be adults with whatever clothes we like and believe what the bible says from start to end about creation and Adam also.

 

[dad]

. You’ve just demonstrated that you know absolutely nothing about evolutionary processes. Instead of this silly strawman creationist version why don’t you find out what scientists really say about evolution and/or common descent and the evidence for it.

Creationists have their own silly version of evolution and real scientists don’t use that creationist version.

Not sure why my ideas as a creation believer on evolution, are being called silly by you. I believe evolution is something God given, and that happens to created animals and people quickly long ago. Nothing in science opposes this. We still have all the same evidences, just a different belief as to what they mean.