Evolution and Genesis account of creation

[The Barbarian]

I think you mean rising o the third day? That was no parable.

Yes, third day. And it's a parable. Did you not understand that real events can be also parables?

Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.


24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolate than of the one who has a husband.” (Isaiah 54.1)


28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.” (Gen 21.10-12) 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Much of the Bible works this way. The fact of Abraham as a real person, does not preclude God using him in a parable, which can be a real incident, just as the Genesis creation story is about real things, which are presented figuratively.

 

[The Barbarian]

Did he point out mornings were not really about mornings or evenings about evenings also?

Yes. He realized that (for reasons you've learned, and others) that they couldn't be literal time periods at all. And he worked for years, trying to find a way to interpret them as literal days.

More importantly who really cares what he thought?

Pretty much all the Christians in the world at the time; he was the most prominent and respected Christian theologian of the time.

And today, who cares? Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christians, who honor him as one of the doctors of the Church.

Eve was not real

As you learned earlier, it's possible for God to make an allegory about real people, as St. Paul wrote.

and really taken from a bone of Adam?

It's a parable about the bond between a man and a woman.

 

[Hank77]

Hi, there are several main views on Genesis and endless number of various combinations.
Comparing Interpretations of Genesis 1

 

[dad]

Yes, third day. And it's a parable.

Sorry, you simply cannot deny that Jesus rose again on the third day as a Christian. Isn't that in the creed you agreed to to use the christian label here?

Did you not understand that real events can be also parables?

Yes I do, in fact I think the parables are true stories.

Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.


24 This is allegorically speaking,

Call it what you like, they were real women. Any attempted fitting of actual events into your pet doctrines is basically opinion.

Much of the Bible works this way. The fact of Abraham as a real person, does not preclude God using him in a parable, which can be a real incident, just as the Genesis creation story is about real things, which are presented figuratively.

This has nothing to do with people believing Adam was actually a product of evolution.

 

[dad]

Yes. He realized that (for reasons you've learned, and others) that they couldn't be literal time periods at all. And he worked for years, trying to find a way to interpret them as literal days.

No idea what you are talking about.

Pretty much all the Christians in the world at the time; he was the most prominent and respected Christian theologian of the time.

Maybe within the Catholic church. Basically the guy is a joke. I doubt real believers cared less what he said.

And today, who cares? Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christians, who honor him as one of the doctors of the Church.

Not my problem. I weigh what is said on it's merits and by the bible.

As you learned earlier, it's possible for God to make an allegory about real people, as St. Paul wrote.

Allegory is fine as long as one does not use it as a tool of disbelief. So do you believe in a real Adam and a real Eve that was taken from his bone or not?

It's a parable about the bond between a man and a woman.

Ha. So no. You do not believe in the first people God created!?

 

[The Barbarian]

This has nothing to do with people believing Adam was actually a product of evolution.

You've confused our bodies, which are produced naturally (as God produces most things in this world), with our souls, which are the immortal part of us, and given directly by God to each of us.

Adam was specifically created by God as a living soul. That is why He says so in Genesis. Not a living body, but a "living soul." Much of your confusion would be cleared up if you'd spend more time with the Bible.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian, regarding Augustine of Hippo:
Yes. He realized that (for reasons you've learned, and others) that they couldn't be literal time periods at all. And he worked for years, trying to find a way to interpret them as literal days.

No idea what you are talking about.

Because you have no contact with apostolic Christianity from the early years of His church, much of Christianity is news to you.

(respected as a theologian)Pretty much all the Christians in the world at the time; he was the most prominent and respected Christian theologian of the time.

Maybe within the Catholic church.

You really missed on that one:

Augustine is recognized as a saint in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Christian Church, and the Anglican Communion and as a preeminent Doctor of the Church. He is also the patron of the Augustinians. His memorial is celebrated on 28 August, the day of his death. Augustine is the patron saint of brewers, printers, theologians, the alleviation of sore eyes, and a number of cities and dioceses.[5] Many Protestants, especially Calvinists and Lutherans, consider him to be one of the theological fathers of the Protestant Reformation due to his teachings on salvation and divine grace.

Historian Diarmaid MacCulloch has written: "[Augustine's] impact on Western Christian thought can hardly be overstated; only his beloved example Paul of Tarsus, has been more influential, and Westerners have generally seen Paul through Augustine's eyes."
Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia

Basically the guy is a joke.

Christians don't think so. See above.

Allegory is fine as long as one does not use it as a tool of disbelief.

That's what YE creationists do.

So do you believe in a real Adam and a real Eve that was taken from his bone or not?

As you learned, the "bone transplant" is a parable for the relationship between man and woman. As you also learned, parables can be about real people.[/QUOTE]

 

[dad]

You've confused our bodies, which are produced naturally (as God produces most things in this world), with our souls, which are the immortal part of us, and given directly by God to each of us.

Adam was specifically created by God as a living soul. That is why He says so in Genesis. Not a living body, but a "living soul." Much of your confusion would be cleared up if you'd spend more time with the Bible.

Right. You think it is me that is confused in thinking that the man God took a bone out of to make woman was actually a man rather than some sort of spook.

 

[dad]

Barbarian, regarding Augustine of Hippo:
Yes. He realized that (for reasons you've learned, and others) that they couldn't be literal time periods at all. And he worked for years, trying to find a way to interpret them as literal days.

Whatever reasons the monk thought existed to say the years were not real years were baloney. How would you expect me to respect such people's opinions?

Because you have no contact with apostolic Christianity from the early years of His church, much of Christianity is news to you.

(respected as a theologian)Pretty much all the Christians in the world at the time; he was the most prominent and respected Christian theologian of the time.

They were mistaken, the guy is a joke.

You really missed on that one:

Augustine is recognized as a saint in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Christian Church, and the Anglican Communion and as a preeminent Doctor of the Church.

That says a lot when people value silly opinions and elevate them to ridiculous levels. All believers are saints in case that is news to you.

He is also the patron of the Augustinians. His memorial is celebrated on 28 August, the day of his death. Augustine is the patron saint of brewers, printers, theologians, the alleviation of sore eyes, and a number of cities and dioceses.[5] Many Protestants, especially Calvinists and Lutherans, consider him to be one of the theological fathers of the Protestant Reformation due to his teachings on salvation and divine grace.

Was he like you in not even realizing Adam was a flesh and blood man? Ha.

Christians don't think so. See above.

This one does.

As you learned, the "bone transplant" is a parable for the relationship between man and woman. As you also learned, parables can be about real people.

Thanks for coming right out of the closet and expressing that opinion. Lurkers...I rest my case.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian, regarding Augustine of Hippo:
Yes. He realized that (for reasons you've learned, and others) that they couldn't be literal time periods at all. And he worked for years, trying to find a way to interpret them as literal days.

Whatever reasons the monk thought

Wasn't a monk. Do you really know nothing about the beginnings of our faith?
Because you have no contact with apostolic Christianity from the early years of His church, much of Christianity is news to you.

(respected as a theologian)Pretty much all the Christians in the world at the time; he was the most prominent and respected Christian theologian of the time.

You really missed on that one:

Augustine is recognized as a saint in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Christian Church, and the Anglican Communion and as a preeminent Doctor of the Church.
That says a lot when people value silly opinions and elevate them to ridiculous levels.

All believers are saints in case that is news to you.

No.
saint
noun
\ ˈsānt

, before a name (ˌ)sānt or sənt\
Definition of saint
(Entry 1 of 2)

1 : one officially recognized especially through canonization as preeminent for holiness —abbreviation St.
2a : one of the spirits of the departed in heaven
b : angel sense 1a
3a : one of God's chosen and usually Christian people
b capitalized : a member of any of various Christian bodies specifically : latter-day saint
4 : one eminent for piety or virtue
5 : an illustrious predecessor

Was he like you in not even realizing Adam was a flesh and blood man?

Remember, I showed you that Adam was a real person?

As you learned, the "bone transplant" is a parable for the relationship between man and woman. As you also learned, parables can be about real people.

Thanks for coming right out of the closet and expressing that opinion.

First, I've been quite forthcoming about being a Christian. Second, I've shown you that, several times before. St. Paul, for example, mentions that the story of Isaac and Ishmael as a parable. So there's no question as to whether or not real people can be in parables. You seem to forget this every time.

 

[The Barbarian]

Right. You think it is me that is confused in thinking that the man God took a bone out of to make woman was actually a man rather than some sort of spook.

Remember, I told you Adam was an actual person, as was Eve. You keep getting confused about what the Bible says about it.

 

[dad]

Barbarian, regarding Augustine of Hippo:
Yes. He realized that (for reasons you've learned, and others) that they couldn't be literal time periods at all. And he worked for years, trying to find a way to interpret them as literal days.

So because some ancient religionist did not have the wherewithal to comprehend how the time periods in the bible could be real, you think we should toss them out. Get serious.

Wasn't a monk. Do you really know nothing about the beginnings of our faith?
Because you have no contact with apostolic Christianity from the early years of His church, much of Christianity is news to you.

How your 'saint' aligned with God's word is the issue. Not how much ridiculous false veneration you want to heap on the guy.

(respected as a theologian)Pretty much all the Christians in the world at the time; he was the most prominent and respected Christian theologian of the time.

? Proof? How would you know what all the Christians at the time thought??

Augustine is recognized as a saint in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Christian Church, and the Anglican Communion and as a preeminent Doctor of the Church.
That says a lot when people value silly opinions and elevate them to ridiculous levels.

He was no more a saint than any other person on earth that ever lived that believed in Jesus. That is the point. Anyone washed/sanctified in the blood of Jesus is a saint. No opinions from some 'holy order' needed.

No.
saint
noun
\ ˈsānt

, before a name (ˌ)sānt or sənt\
Definition of saint
(Entry 1 of 2)

1 : one officially recognized especially through canonization as preeminent for holiness —abbreviation St.
2a : one of the spirits of the departed in heaven
b : angel sense 1a
3a : one of God's chosen and usually Christian people
b capitalized : a member of any of various Christian bodies specifically : latter-day saint
4 : one eminent for piety or virtue
5 : an illustrious predecessor

Now let's look at the bible.

From the Hebrew
"sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart"

We are set apart only by belief in Jesus.
And in Greek a saint is this
"most holy thing, a saint"
Men have no holiness except that from Jesus.

Remember, I showed you that Adam was a real person?

No. I recall you mumbled something about him being a 'soul'. Explain? Here is the simple question:
Do you believe Adam was a real man created by God who was the first man alive and from whom God took a bone and created a woman for Him that Adam saw when he woke up from the operation. Yes or no?

As you learned, the "bone transplant" is a parable for the relationship between man and woman. As you also learned, parables can be about real people.

No idea what you are talking about. The operation was where God said Eve came from. Forget any wunderbar supposed lessons buried in the event, do you believe it or not??

First, I've been quite forthcoming about being a Christian. Second, I've shown you that, several times before. St. Paul, for example, mentions that the story of Isaac and Ishmael as a parable. So there's no question as to whether or not real people can be in parables. You seem to forget this every time.

No news there. I believe the rich man and Lazarus really were people. I believe the prodigal son, and the good Samaritan were real people..etc. So?

The issue is whether people try to use the fact that lessons can be gleaned from their lives as some excuse that they actually never lived or were real. If you believe in Abraham...fine. Me too.
Where the rubber meets the road in the creation/evolution debate is where people do NOT believe in a real flood or real garden or real Adam etc etc.

 

[dad]

Remember, I told you Adam was an actual person, as was Eve. You keep getting confused about what the Bible says about it.

See my last post and answer the question.

 

[The Barbarian]

You have a personal definition of several words, which is O.K. as long as you realize that Christians don't necessarily agree with you on them.

You've made it clear that you prefer your modern revision of the story of Eve to the Genesis account. And that's where we'll have to leave it.