Evolution and Genesis account of creation

[dad]

The Bible didn't take your words out of context. It's just that God doesn't agree with what you said. He makes it perfectly clear that your actions determine whether you go with Him or with Satan. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Opposite is true actual, works have precisely zero to do with it.

If you do this, you will have eternal life. As Jesus say, not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter heaven by those who do the will of the Father. Do you?

I should maybe explain what He meant. 'Not every one that mouths the words while not meaning them in their heart is saved'

 

[The Barbarian]

Opposite is true actual, works have precisely zero to do with it.

God says that He will decide whether you go with Him or with Satan, depending on your works. He said it. I believe it. And that's all that matters.

 

[dad]

God says that He will decide whether you go with Him or with Satan, depending on your works. He said it. I believe it. And that's all that matters.

Romans 4:1-8 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[The Barbarian]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? ... [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? ... [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. ... [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

This is why Martin Luther wanted to remove James from the Bible. He correctly argued that James contradicted his new doctrine of "faith only."

And it's not hard to see why. Like Matthew 25, it unequivocally states that works justify a man.

 

[NobleMouse]

Guessing from some of the remarks by dad and JDD_III you must be interacting with The Barbarian. As you've come to see, your comments will regularly be taken out of context, as they also twist and redefine scripture to fit their worldview. I've come to block this person, but that was just my preference.

 

[The Barbarian]

I told mouse that almost everyone who puts people on ignore, actually peeks. (Hi Mouse!)

Usually, they're more careful about hiding it, though.

 

[Erik Nelson]

A great many Christians are under the impression that our scriptures were written in the same order in which they now appear in the canon. These documents have been exhaustively studied by a great many biblical scholars particularly in the last two centuries. The large majority of these scholars, both conservative and liberal, now agree with what has come to be called "the documentary hypothesis" when dealing with the Torah.

In the late 1800s, a group of scholars in Germany led by Professors K. H. Graf and Julius Wellhausen began to study rigorously the details of the first five books of the Bible – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. These books, called the Torah or the Books of Moses, constitute the most sacred part of the Hebrew Scriptures and were traditionally required by the Jews to be read in their entirety on the Sabbaths of a single year in the synagogues of the Jewish world. These scholars began to apply to these texts the insights of literary criticism. The results were salutary and more than anything else opened the doors to a new academic interest in the Bible itself.

Analyzing these texts carefully, these scholars discovered that there were many observable differences that could be noted which led them to the conclusion that the Torah consisted of several strands of what had once been independent material. One strand referred to God by the name Yahweh, or at least by an unpronounceable set of consonants that were written as YHWH, and it called the holy mountain of the Jews Mt. Sinai. Another strand of material called God by the name of Elohim and it called the holy mountain Mt. Horeb. A third strand of material reflected life in the Kingdom of Judah in the seventh century. Still another strand appeared to be dated during the time of the Exile and perhaps even later. When they began to separate these strands from one another, other insights became available.

These four strands are termed, in the order mentioned above, as J or Jahwist, E or Elohist, D or Deuteronomist and P or Priestly. These four strands were cut and pasted into a new document by R or Redactor (Editor) at some point late in the Exile or shortly after. All of this leads to modern confusion because the subject matter of the different strands is frequently similar but is handled quite differently.

There are contradictions found in the three versions of the Ten Commandments contained in the Bible (Exodus 34:1-28, Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:1-21). The three versions are not the same. Exodus 34, the oldest version at about 950 BC, is from the pen of the "J" or Jahwist writer and is not one of which many have ever heard. The final commandment in this earliest version reads "You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk." Why, we are led to wonder, was this original set of Ten Commandments rejected or replaced? The second version Exodus 20, from about 850 BC, was from the pen of the "E" or Elohist writer, but was greatly expanded about 560 BC by a group of people called the "P" or priestly writers. Did these writers, who added so much to the entire body of the Jewish Scriptures, do so because they judged the original version to be so woefully inadequate that it required major additions and editing? Does one alter or tamper with what one believes to be "The Word of God?" The third version, Deuteronomy 5 in about 625 BC, was from the pen of the "D" or Deuteronomic writers composed somewhere between the original writing of Exodus 20 and the expansion done on that same text some 400 or so years later. For example, the version in Deuteronomy did not offer as the reason the Sabbath must be observed the fact that God rested on the Sabbath, for the version of that seven day creation story had not yet been written. So this author states that the Sabbath is to be observed because the people of Israel must remember that they were once slaves in Egypt and even slaves must have a day of rest. Which of these versions of the Ten Commandments, we might ask, can qualify as "The Word of God?"

Much later in the Old Testament Micah seems to summarize the commandments into just three:

Micah 6:8 --- And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Looking ahead into the New Testament we find:

Mark 10:19 --- Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Here Jesus only lists six of the ten. When we look at the other two synoptic gospels we quickly note that "Defraud not" is not on Matthew's and Luke's list of Jesus' commandments. We also note Jesus' famous summary of the commandments down to just two:

Matthew 22: 35-40 --- One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Please consider reading the books by Richard Elliott, Friedman, including

• who wrote the Bible.
• The Bible with source is revealed.
• The hidden book in the Bible.

His major revision of the documentary hypothesis. States that the priestly source P was written under the reign of and during the religious reforms of King Hezekiah in about 700 BC about the same time as. The Prophet Isaiah.

 

[misput]

Please consider reading the books by Richard Elliott, Friedman, including

• who wrote the Bible.
• The Bible with source is revealed.
• The hidden book in the Bible.

His major revision of the documentary hypothesis. States that the priestly source P was written under the reign of and during the religious reforms of King Hezekiah in about 700 BC about the same time as. The Prophet Isaiah.

While this is interesting and I appreciate you sharing it. Do you think it basically changes anything, like maybe our faith?

 

[Erik Nelson]

While this is interesting and I appreciate you sharing it. Do you think it basically changes anything, like maybe our faith?

Why would it? The New Testament Gospel of Jesus was written by many authors. They complement and harmonize. Why can't the same true for the Old Testament of Moses? We don't even have any manuscripts from the first century AD. Much less the second Millennium BC. There's no way whatever Moses himself wrote survived directly. But he had many followers. Each of whom could have. Continued his heritage in memory.

 

[dad]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? ... [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? ... [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. ... [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

This is why Martin Luther wanted to remove James from the Bible. He correctly argued that James contradicted his new doctrine of "faith only."

And it's not hard to see why. Like Matthew 25, it unequivocally states that works justify a man.

Justify does not mean save. Jesus saves.

 

[The Barbarian]

Justify does not mean save. Jesus saves.

Paul says we are justified by faith. So you're telling us that we aren't saved by faith? How so?

 

[dad]

Paul says we are justified by faith. So you're telling us that we aren't saved by faith? How so?

We are saved by faith in Jesus. So was Abraham. By works shall no flesh be justified.

Ga 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

 

[The Barbarian]

We are saved by faith in Jesus. So was Abraham. By works shall no flesh be justified.

Well, let's take a look. God says:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

So God says that we are justified by works and faith. However, works of the law will not justify you.

Ga 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law,

So what works is God speaking of when He tells us that we are justified by works?

Here's what Jesus said:

Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. ... [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: ... [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. ... [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ... [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

... [36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. ... [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? ... [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? ... [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? ... [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.


... [41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. ... [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. ... [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. ... [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? ... [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.


... [46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

This is how He will decide your eternal home. Best listen to Him.

 

[dad]

Well, let's take a look. God says:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

So God says that we are justified by works and faith. However, works of the law will not justify you.

Ga 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law,

So what works is God speaking of when He tells us that we are justified by works?

Here's what Jesus said:

Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. ... [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: ... [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. ... [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ... [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

... [36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. ... [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? ... [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? ... [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? ... [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.


... [41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. ... [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. ... [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. ... [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? ... [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.


... [46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

This is how He will decide your eternal home. Best listen to Him.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[The Barbarian]

We can agree to disagree.

Your disagreement is here:

We are saved by faith in Jesus. So was Abraham. By works shall no flesh be justified.

God says:
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

 

[notreligus]

Justified = Just As If I Had Not Sinned

Our sin was imputed to Christ on the cross; His righteousness was imputed to us. It's often called The Great Exchange. The Book of Hebrews describes Christ as our Great High Priest, our Mediator, and our Intercessor. Think of Christ as your attorney, the one who stands before the Father, and with Christ's righteousness it is as though we are sinless. The Father sees us through the blood, Christ's blood, and the blood He shed is the sacrifice that the Father would accept as payment for our reconciliation back to Him.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Justified = Just As If I Had Not Sinned

Our sin was imputed to Christ on the cross; His righteousness was imputed to us. It's often called The Great Exchange. The Book of Hebrews describes Christ as our Great High Priest, our Mediator, and our Intercessor. Think of Christ as your attorney, the one who stands before the Father, and with Christ's righteousness it is as though we are sinless. The Father sees us through the blood, Christ's blood, and the blood He shed is the sacrifice that the Father would accept as payment for our reconciliation back to Him.

Yeah, only by faith can we begin to seek God, and arguably, only by faith, receive Jesus' powerful blood, which cleans the heart, the inner thoughts, and sets us up as just. Also by faith the living water, and the anointing can come in and set the captive free, as in Luke 4.

Faith and receiving grace gives righteousness? Not faith alone?

The Catholic church changed it's stance on the by faith or works teaching, in the joint declaration as in the link linked above.

For example, a woman in great ill health had faith that if she touched Jesus garment, she would be healed. She did so, and Jesus knew virtue had flowed out of him. With the Centurion who told Jesus, I am not worthy that you come under my roof, by faith healing took place, of course, it took virtue, the Spirit, perhaps by an angel, like a Roman messenger under a Centurion. It is the Holy Spirit that does the change by his touch and fill, his hand.

A justification or a healing, they are similar.

 

[The Barbarian]

As God says:
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

 

[notreligus]

Yeah, only by faith can we begin to seek God, and arguably, only by faith, receive Jesus' powerful blood, which cleans the heart, the inner thoughts, and sets us up as just. Also by faith the living water, and the anointing can come in and set the captive free, as in Luke 4.

Faith and receiving grace gives righteousness? Not faith alone?

The Catholic church changed it's stance on the by faith or works teaching, in the joint declaration as in the link linked above.

For example, a woman in great ill health had faith that if she touched Jesus garment, she would be healed. She did so, and Jesus knew virtue had flowed out of him. With the Centurion who told Jesus, I am not worthy that you come under my roof, by faith healing took place, of course, it took virtue, the Spirit, perhaps by an angel, like a Roman messenger under a Centurion. It is the Holy Spirit that does the change by his touch and fill, his hand.

A justification or a healing, they are similar.

Salvation is by faith in what Christ has done and what He alone has done. You nor I can do anything to add to it. I didn't work up a sweat by believing He is the Son of God and accomplished what was necessary by Himself. The Holy Spirit bears witness to me that the Gospel is true. So even when the Holy Spirit intervenes it is still attributed to God. The Father - The Son - The Holy Spirit - separate but all three are God.

 

[notreligus]

As God says:
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

This is a type of what Christ was going to do in the future!! (James was describing Abraham and Issac and Abraham's obedience - an Old Testament reference.) Christ was the obedient one who reconciled mankind by His obedience.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.