Evolution and Genesis account of creation

[GoldenKingGaze]

Salvation is by faith in what Christ has done and what He alone has done. You nor I can do anything to add to it. I didn't work up a sweat by believing He is the Son of God and accomplished what was necessary by Himself. The Holy Spirit bears witness to me that the Gospel is true. So even when the Holy Spirit intervenes it is still attributed to God. The Father - The Son - The Holy Spirit - separate but all three are God.

Works must follow a clean and justified heart. But it is God as you say, who makes it clean and just and gracious in return. Not by knowledge or gnosis, or by simply trusting him, but by his Spirit in us.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

This is a type of what Christ was going to do in the future!! (James was describing Abraham and Issac and Abraham's obedience - an Old Testament reference.) Christ was the obedient one who reconciled mankind by His obedience.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This reconciliation is not automatic, by Jesus actions, but is enabled by us responding to him by acknowledging our sin and asking for him to come into our hearts, individually. Jesus' powerful blood, which is actual like substance and when it is locally upon the individual, makes the heart clean, protects, gives life, justifies and God sees his son's righteousness when he looks down at us from Heaven.

 

[The Barbarian]

This is a type of what Christ was going to do in the future!! (James was describing Abraham and Issac and Abraham's obedience - an Old Testament reference.) Christ was the obedient one who reconciled mankind by His obedience.

Yes. But that's a different issue as to what will justify us. As God says, we are justified by works as well as by faith.

 

[The Barbarian]

Salvation is by faith in what Christ has done and what He alone has done.

But if you follow Jesus, you know that He has said your works will determine whether you spend eternity with Him or with Satan and his angels.

 

[Erik Nelson]

This is a type of what Christ was going to do in the future!! (James was describing Abraham and Issac and Abraham's obedience - an Old Testament reference.) Christ was the obedient one who reconciled mankind by His obedience.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

condemnation for ALL men...

MANY will be made righteous...

many are called, few chosen

 

[Erik Nelson]

Salvation is by faith in what Christ has done and what He alone has done. You nor I can do anything to add to it. I didn't work up a sweat by believing He is the Son of God and accomplished what was necessary by Himself. The Holy Spirit bears witness to me that the Gospel is true. So even when the Holy Spirit intervenes it is still attributed to God. The Father - The Son - The Holy Spirit - separate but all three are God.

and a truly saving faith manifests good deeds, so that others can know about your status with Heaven

judge a tree by its fruit

 

[Erik Nelson]

As God says:
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

John 9:31
John 14:24
?

 

[Erik Nelson]

The creation account in Genesis 1 uses three Hebrew verbs, all of which portray God as a skilled artisan, something like a carpenter, stone mason, jeweller, or metalsmith:

bara (H1254) = to carve (as with wood in carpentry or stones in stonemasonry or jewels in jewelry making)

asah (H6213) = to manufacture (as to produce with labor)

melakah (H4399) = business affairs

 

[Erik Nelson]

The creation account in Genesis 2 uses one other Hebrew verb, which portrays God as a skilled potter.

Note: Genesis 2 uses yatsar (H3335) "to mould" wherever Genesis 1 uses asah (H6213) "to manufacture"

yatsar (H3335) = to mould (as with clay being formed)

 

[Erik Nelson]

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/Genesis 1 and creation.pdf

all of this is consistent with the "pre-creation chaos" interpretation favored by Semitic Language Scholar Michael Heiser, according to which Genesis one describes God acting on pre existing matter which God orders and purposes. As well as by John Walton in The lost world of Genesis 1

Notes on “The Lost World of Genesis One”, by John Walton — David Johnstone

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/Genesis 1 and creation.pdf

all of this is consistent with the "pre-creation chaos" interpretation favored by Semitic Language Scholar Michael Heiser, according to which Genesis one describes God acting on pre existing matter which God orders and purposes. As well as by John Walton in The lost world of Genesis 1

Notes on “The Lost World of Genesis One”, by John Walton — David Johnstone

Are you saying matter existed apart from creation, as self existent?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Are you saying matter existed apart from creation, as self existent?

think that the authors i cited above are implying that the biblical writers probably did believe in Creation ex nihilo out of nothing, however just that the first chapter of Genesis doesn't cover that "Big Bang" but jumps into events after that

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
As God says:
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

John 9:31
John 14:24
?

I don't see how either of these means that God is wrong in James. How do you figure?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[JackRT]

Are you saying matter existed apart from creation, as self existent?

If we can consider an invisible and immaterial God as uncreated then I have no problem with a visible and material universe as also being uncreated. Why one and not the other?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

If we can consider an invisible and immaterial God as uncreated then I have no problem with a visible and material universe as also being uncreated. Why one and not the other?

God's word says in Him all things hold together. Everything is intrinsically good. Through Christ all things were made.

Then there is the matter of the tree of life and the river of life. Heaven...

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

think that the authors i cited above are implying that the biblical writers probably did believe in Creation ex nihilo out of nothing, however just that the first chapter of Genesis doesn't cover that "Big Bang" but jumps into events after that

Yes and there is a lost plot, maybe too long to read.

 

[dad]

The creation account in Genesis 2 uses one other Hebrew verb, which portrays God as a skilled potter.

Note: Genesis 2 uses yatsar (H3335) "to mould" wherever Genesis 1 uses asah (H6213) "to manufacture"

yatsar (H3335) = to mould (as with clay being formed)
View attachment 252631

Well, if God made Adam from dust that is both manufactured and formed.

 

[trophy33]

Well, if God made Adam from dust that is both manufactured and formed.

Have you ever wondered why the word is "dust" and not "clay?"

Dust does not stick together, you cannot form anything from dust. Its just a symbol of mortality.

 

[dad]

Have you ever wondered why the word is "dust" and not "clay?"

Dust does not stick together, you cannot form anything from dust. Its just a symbol of mortality.

No. The Hebrew meaning of the word translated as dust is
" dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish "
If we add water to earth we can mold it. Surely God had ways of molding stuff. Was God incapable of molding the mortar or ground??

 

[trophy33]

No. The Hebrew meaning of the word translated as dust is
" dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish "
If we add water to earth we can mold it. Surely God had ways of molding stuff. Was God incapable of molding the mortar or ground??

To read Genesis 1/2 as a scientific description of creation is not the right way of reading it, IMHO.

People in those times used symbolism for everything. They did not care about nature sciences. When they said that we are from dust, they did not mean our chemical composition. They meant it as a symbol of mortality. We are made to the image of God, but still mortal.

"And Abraham replied, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes."
Gen 18:27
-> Abraham was not made of ashes... not literally. This was their symbolic language. Abraham was not giving us a scientific description of his body, he just symbolically said that he is amazed that he was able to speak with God, even though he is just a fleshy, mortal, sinful, weak, destroyable, fragile man.

When we begin to understand their language and realize it is not our language, all the controversy between some Christians and science will disappear.