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Featured Everything I see convinces me Emmanuel Macron is the antichrist

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by IfThePuzzleFits, Sep 24, 2017.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If this is true in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, then it must be true for every word that Christ ever spoke to His disciples and any other believers. Would you agree?
     
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 24
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    This prediction of Christ was literally experienced by his disciples, as recorded in the book of Acts and other Christian history.

    If Christ believed that all Christians are one, then He believed that all Christians would be delivered up to be afflicted and killed, or hated of all nations.

    My father and mother were both believers, now passed on. Yet they were never delivered up to be afflicted and killed, or hated of all nations. No part of this prediction ever applied to them. Obviously the same and countless other equivalent scenarios have been repeated countless times throughout Christian history.

    So all Christians are not one in this and countless other instances.

    And I'm incredulous that I'm having this conversation. Only in futurized follyland.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Yes, in the sense of 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4.

    Similarly, just as Jesus Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact it hasn't yet been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly detailed and chronological events of the just-preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent Millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact they haven't yet been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

    To put it another way, the future fulfillment of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus Christ returns immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks he will still be alive to go through the Tribulation, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all parts of the Bible regarding all times are profitable to all Christians of all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

    --

    For example, Christians have always needed to be careful, and still need to be careful today, not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7) and that Christians won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows on the 3rd day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6) and He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    Gnosticism mistakenly thinks flesh is evil in itself, and only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves flesh isn't evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

    Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

    And the Bible shows the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

    So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

    *******

    Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Biblical Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, those (not in hiding) who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for Him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that He's letting them and their little ones suffer in the Tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

    No, because some Christians will be protected (Revelation 12:6,14), just as some Christians were protected during a 1st century AD persecution (Revelation 3:10).

    It did in the sense of 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4.

    Note that all Christians are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4). But this doesn't require that the same things happen to every Christian, just as we as individuals each having one physical body doesn't require that the same things happen to every part of our body. For example, we can stub our toe without stubbing our finger. But our body can still suffer generally nonetheless (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:26).
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He's future. There's nothing to beware at present.

    All of the disciples except John were killed. Why didn't Christ's literal prediction and its fulfillment include them?

    Revelation 12:6,14 refers literally to a single woman. There is no mention or implication of plural Christians or their protection.


    No sense; no rational connection.

    Why are Christ's predictions applicable only to future believers, and not to His disciples, who were also part of the "one"?


    Notwithstanding your declarations of literality, your denial of the literal fulfillments of Matthew 24 turns it into an immense allegory. No allegoricist could do better.

    Matthew 24 historical literal fulfillments. History is indisputable.

    DECEIVERS

    Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

    Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

    Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

    Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

    According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

    An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

    Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

    Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

    WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

    Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

    Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

    Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

    We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

    Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

    In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

    Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

    But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

    Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

    FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

    Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

    Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

    Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

    The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

    Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

    Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

    During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

    Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

    PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

    Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

    Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

    Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

    The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

    The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

    Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

    Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

    In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

    In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

    Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

    "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

    Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

    The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold. "But he that shall endure [such things] until the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:13)—both now and hereafter. We understand "end" here in a general sense, for unlike the use of this word in verses 6 and 14, this reference does not have the definite article in the Greek text.

    GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

    "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

    It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

    On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

    Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

    Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

    The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

    Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

    By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

    By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.


    Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    His doctrine is present (1 John 4:3).

    For the same reason it didn't include John.

    The Tribulation of Matthew 24 is future.

    The woman in Revelation 12 represents the Church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

    Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

    Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the Church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the Church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, being imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1 the Church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10) but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the Church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the Church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the Church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

    Because the Tribulation hasn't started yet.

    Actually, it doesn't.

    For example, the end of the 2nd Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus Christ spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken right after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1). And one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

    Also, in Matthew 24:2 the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 24 historical literal fulfillments. History is indisputable.

    DECEIVERS

    Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

    Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

    Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

    Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

    According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

    An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

    Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

    Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

    WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

    Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

    Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

    Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

    We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

    Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

    In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

    Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

    But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

    Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

    FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

    Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

    Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

    Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

    The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

    Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

    Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

    During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

    Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

    PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

    Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

    Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

    Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

    The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

    The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

    Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

    Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

    In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

    In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

    Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

    "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

    Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

    The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold. "But he that shall endure [such things] until the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:13)—both now and hereafter. We understand "end" here in a general sense, for unlike the use of this word in verses 6 and 14, this reference does not have the definite article in the Greek text.

    GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

    "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

    It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

    On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

    Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

    Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

    The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

    Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

    By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

    By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.


    Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the Tribulation of Matthew 24 has never been fulfilled, because Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

    Also, just because wars, for example, occurred in the 1st century AD after Jesus spoke Matthew 24:6 doesn't make those wars the fulfillment of Matthew 24:6 any more than just because much worse wars occurred in the 20th century doesn't make those wars the fulfillment of Matthew 24:6.
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Josephus was a confirming eyewitness.

    You weren't.
    You wouldn't know.

    You weren't there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that just as Josephus never saw the Second Coming, so he never saw the immediately-preceding Tribulation.

    So what will happen next is the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which the Church will have to go through (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13) and which will be immediately followed by Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the Church's physical resurrection, its rapture (gathering together to Jesus), judgment by Jesus, and marriage to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27, Psalms 50:4-5, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Jesus and the Church will then reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), a time period commonly called the Millennium. After the Millennium, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Sometime after that will occur the physical resurrection and judgment of all non-Christians of all times, at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Then will occur the time of the literal city of New Jerusalem on a New Earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

    --

    Also, from Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and other Bible passages, we can derive the following summary of the main events of the future Tribulation:

    It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8).

    Then a huge volcanic eruption will occur (Revelation 6:12-14).

    Then an island volcano will erupt and collapse into the sea (Revelation 8:8-9).

    Then a comet will strike the earth in a region containing 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10-11).

    Then a cavern deep underground will open up and strange locust-like beings will swarm up from it and torment mankind with horribly painful stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-11).

    Then 200 million strange horse-like beings will come upon the earth and kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19).

    Sometime before this, a 3rd Jewish temple will have been built in Jerusalem (Revelation 11:1).

    Then various things will happen during a literal 3.5-year period:

    Jerusalem will be occupied by enemy forces (Revelation 11:2b, Luke 21:24), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the future Antichrist) will be put in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

    Two Witnesses of God will prophesy in Jerusalem and bring amazing miraculous plagues on the world (Revelation 11:3-12).

    Satan (the dragon) will give power to an individual man (one aspect of Revelation's "beast"), commonly called the Antichrist, to take hegemony over the entire earth and to be worshipped by it along with Satan, and to kill Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:4-10). At least one time, the Antichrist will also sit in the 3rd Jewish temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

    The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will perform amazing miracles by which the people of the world will be deceived into receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) on their right hand or forehead, and into worshipping a speaking, and seemingly living, image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:11-18, Revelation 19:20).

    Right after the literal 3.5-year period:

    A horrible sore will spring up on all those people who received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2).

    Then the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3).

    Then all natural, surface fresh-water sources will be turned into blood (Revelation 16:4-6).

    Then a solar flare will strike the earth (Revelation 16:8).

    Then, for a time, there will be no light on the earth (Revelation 16:10).

    Then the Euphrates will dry up, and the armies of the earth will gather at Armageddon (a place in northern Israel) in an attempt to fight YHWH God (Revelation 16:12-16).

    Then the cities of the nations will be destroyed by fire, earthquake, and 100-pound hailstones (Revelation 16:18-21, Revelation 17:16).

    Then Jesus Christ will return and physically resurrect the Church, rapture (gather together) the Church, judge the Church, and marry the Church, in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27, Psalms 50:4-5, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), before He descends and completely defeats the world's armies gathered (by that time at Jerusalem) against YHWH God (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14).
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Correct. He saw the tribulation prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24:21.

    Suetonius was a confirming historian.
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that he couldn't have seen it, because Jesus Christ will return immediately after that Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

    Therefore, we Christians alive today will have to go through the future Tribulation.

    Also, while at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the Church will still be spiritually protected during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so they will survive the Tribulation's 1st stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It's near the end of this 1st stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the Tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the Tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of God's Holy Spirit which they and all others in the Church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

    After this 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the Tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

    The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the future Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the Church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the Church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the Church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    After the future Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These 7 vials (Revelation 16) will be the Tribulation's 4th and final stage. Because the Church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the Church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark they'd built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the Church will survive the entire future Tribulation on the earth. They're those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' Second Coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,025
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    Matthew 24
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    1074 [e]
    genea
    γενεὰ
    generation
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    STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά
    the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30...

    Tacitus was a confirming historian.

    The Church and the 144,000

    Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

    2 Corinthians 1:21-22
    Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

    Ephesians 1:13
    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:30
    Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


    The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
    Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

    While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number can be depicted as 12, representing faithful OT saints, one from each of the 12 tribes.

    Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing the 12 apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20). The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

    Galatians 3:28
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Ephesians 2:14
    For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

    Thus we have...:
    ...when multiplied together, yielding 144,000 representing the Church through the ages in its fullness.

    The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

    No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the future Tribulation, and Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which He would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean the Tribulation, Second Coming and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' 1st coming in the 1st century AD, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

    Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future Tribulation and Second Coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

    This doesn't require Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: that is, 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the Tribulation which will immediately precede the Second Coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the Tribulation's 1st year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

    Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Note that the 144,000 will be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so will indeed be part of the Church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). And they will be the firstfruits of the Church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). And they will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could already be part of the Church. For they will be alive on the earth, and will already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the Tribulation along with the rest of the Church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the Church. For all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    The number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 will be a literal number of people, which will consist of literally 12 groups with literally 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8). Similarly, the 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4), just as, for example, 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins.
     
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Greek is clear. Tribulation would befall "the whole multitude of men living at the same time" (Strong). It did within 40 years. All was fulfilled as Christ predicted in Matthew 24:34.

    The New Covenant is made with the Church (2 Corinthians 3:6), which includes believing Israelites and Gentiles. As at the birth of the Church in Acts 2, "men of Israel" and those subsequently who accepted the New Covenant were "added to the Church daily."

    That's one prayer that won't be answered. Believing Jews and Gentiles alike are grafted into the root, who is Christ. (Romans 11:16-18). Ethnicity is irrelevant (Galatians 3:28). It is shared by hundreds of millions on the planet.
    "And indeed, the number of people in the world today with the “Abrahamic Genetic Signature” is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions."
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that the Tribulation did not befall the temporal generation alive when Jesus spoke Matthew 24, just as His Second Coming did not befall it.

    But both could befall our present temporal generation.

    That's right. And Christian Gentiles even become Israelites under the New Covenant.

    For all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1b) but also the Gentiles in the Church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24) as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28) and as Jesus Christ is (Galatians 3:16,29). So both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

    Note that just as all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus Christ (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish Christians remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile Christians have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile Christian becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile Christians, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Note this can't mean there are no Christians who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, for Christians remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean there are no Christians who are males or females, for we're still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

    So Galatians 3:28 can only mean there's no distinction between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles, or between Christian males and Christian females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

    Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).
     
  16. dawei7

    dawei7 New Member

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    My english is not so good, so please excuse any mistakes.

    I think there is a confusion between the beast from the Earth (Israel) -> Antichrist, False Messiah, has to be Jew, False Prophet
    and the beast out of the Sea (Leader Europe (Former Roman Empire))

    Emmanuel Macron is in my view a good matching candidate as beast out of the Sea.
    Especially consider this passage:
    Daniel 36-38
    36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath is accomplished: for what has been determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in their place he shall honor the god of fortresses: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

    I listened a sermon 2 years ago, in which God of fortresses could be translated as "Temple of Jupiter Capitolinus". Shocklingly in 2017 Emmanuel Macron declared that he wants to rule like Jupiter.

    -> The Antichrist (Beast out of the Sea) (False Son Messiah) does only honor his father God (Beast out of the Sea -> Self declared Jupiter).

    Interestingly Mr. Macron calls his dog Nemo. If you enter "Nemo Macron" it results in English Gematria as 666. However, I guess this is just coincidence, but interesting (nemo macron Gematria Value - English Gematria Calculator).
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Hi dawei7, welcome to the forum.

    There are things about Macron that would lend himself to being the person commonly called the Antichrist.

    But Macron is not a Jew - and cannot be that person. To become the Antichrist, the person must be anointed the King of Israel - instead of and against (Anti) Jesus Christ the rightful King of Israel. For the Jews to embrace the person as their King of Israel, the person has to be a Jew.

    The person just has not surfaced yet. What to watch for as far as his emergence - is that the EU reorganizes into a ten leader form of government with one leader over the ten.

    There's a lot of disagreement in the conversations here. But in recent times, not a lot of anger over it. :hug:
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  18. Karen Reid

    Karen Reid New Member

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  19. Karen Reid

    Karen Reid New Member

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    You didn't use Emmanuel Macron's full name; additionally, I've been researching some interesting websites that prove that Gematria is the wrong method to determine "the number of a man." Just from what I've researched about Macron, he's the closest I've seen yet to the Antichrist. I happened to have my TV on yesterday when "Days of Our Lives" came on. There were two male actors, one of which was accusing the other of "hopping into bed with MY husband." Yep, we are IN the last days--"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be when the Son of Man returns." We all need to get ready and keep our lamps burning!!!
     
  20. Karen Reid

    Karen Reid New Member

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    I agree with YOU. Just ignore all the ignoramuses who are mocking you. The antichrist is NOT a "Jew," and Gematria is way off. Just ignore them, be ready and keep watch. The antichrist will not come to power until he sustains a massive head wound which is seen by the whole world (no one knew about internet when Revelation was written!), and which will be healed by Satan.
     
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