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Featured Everything I see convinces me Emmanuel Macron is the antichrist

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by IfThePuzzleFits, Sep 24, 2017.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Scripture doesn't consider it to be in error. Review post 107.
  2. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    Anti-Christ - Anti-King of Israel. Becoming the King of Israel instead of Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

    I have been giving the scriptures that associate the Antichrist will becoming the King of Israel based on numerous text of what Christ mean and the role of Christ, the messiah, in the bible itself.

    The pope cannot become the King of Israel because he is not a Jew. Anti the prefix means against and instead of. Attached to Christ, it means instead of and against Christ. which Christ refers to be God's sent to be King of Israel.

    Christ(os) is the greek term for messiah. It is in the text of Scripture, this verse.

    John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

    Messiah, the hebrew word for it, means anointed. All of the kings and priests of Israel were anointeds. "The" messiah is the one special person to be their King of Israel.

    Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

    Do you think it is a coincidence that the Jews rejected Jesus as their King, and are looking for another?

    Look at what Pilate wrote on the sign about Jesus's head on the cross - Jesus of Nazerth, King of the Jews.

    The scibes siad in mocking Jesus as he was being crucified -

    32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

    ANTI-CHRIST, KING of ISRAEL, means instead of and against Jesus the true King of Israel. The Pope cannot be anointed the King of Israel because he is not descended from King David. And the Pope's religon is not Judaism for the Jews to embrace him as the King of Israel.

    John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

    The Pope cannot become the King of Israel - instead of and against Jesus, the rightful King of Israel, because the Pope is not a Jew, not descended from King David, and is the wrong religion to be anointed the King of Israel.

    The Pope cannot confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 70th shmittah, because he is not Jewish and he is not in the appointed role by Moses as that being his responsibility to do so. Daniel 9:27 has nothing to do with the Pope.

    Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 required all future leaders of Israel
    all future generations, in perpetuity, to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year Shmittah cycle, from the place of God's choosing - which the Jews currently take to be the temple mount.

    The pope is not the Antichrist, the president of the United States whoever happens to be in the office at the time is not the Antichrist, the muslim Mahdi is not the Antichrist, Matreya is not the Antichrist, Adoph Hitler was not the Antichrist, Napolean was not the Antichrist, Putin is not the Anti-Christ, Aleister Crowley is not the Antichrist - because none of them are qualified to become the King of Israel.

    Should it be within the Lord's plans, and I am still around - when the person who will become the Antichrist, I will point him out to you - when he comes to power, before he becomes the Antichrist.

    The popes are false prophets, just like the Mormon living prophets are false prophets - but they are not qualified to become the Antichrist.

    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    Revelation 12:1-6 ? Not hardly. Revelation 12:1-5. In Revelation 12:5, Jesus is caught up to heaven.

    The 70th shmittach cycle is still to go. The 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 is the first half of that 7 year shimittah cycle. Then the war in heaven and Satan cast down for the second half of the 70th shmittah cycle. Together they constitute the 7 years.

    Aren't you paying attention to the crowns on the 7 heads in Revelation 12:3 ?

    The heads, the seven kings prophecy in Revelation 17, are complete because King #7 will have come to power right before the 7 years in Revelation 12 begin.
    The Third woe did come quickly, for as soon as the 7th sounded, them in heaven reacting, John is immediately shown in Revelation 12 the vision which contains the third woe.

    The FACT is that in the text of Revelation, none of the vials are called a woe, not collectively a woe. But the FACT is that in the text of Revelation, Satan being cast down is called a woe to the inhabiters of the earth.
    Not called a woe.

    Not called a woe.

    So? I go by what the text says. It says in the text of the Revelation 10:6-7 what the seventh trumpet sounding announces - and it does not say the vials.

    6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

    7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    The mystery of God is not the seven vials. The prophets did not speak about the 7 vials. The prophets spoke about the Kingdom of God becoming the ruling Kingdom here on earth. And about the coming resurrection of the dead. And the reward of the saints to rule with Jesus and inherit the Kingdom of God.

    When the 7th trumpet sounds, the vials follow, but that is not what the text says is the purpose of the 7th trumpet. What you have done is over-ridden, or ignored, or are not familar with what it says in Revelation 10:6-7 - which is not about the vials, but the mystery of God being finished - "as he hath declared to his servants the prophets".
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Note that it did, because the image of the beast is not the beast itself, and thus is not the papacy.
    The first beast is a literal beast. Nowhere does Rev. 13 claim that it is the literal Antichrist.
    The second beast is a literal beast. Nowhere does Rev. 13 claim that it is the literal False Prophet.
    The beasts' actions and operations are wondrous and miraculous in nature (v. 13-14). There is no need for any computing capability of any kind. Given computing infrastructure's susceptibility to power and other hardware and software failure, that would be a risible dependence.
    Other than the specified miraculous and anthropogenic capabilities, there are no other literal descriptions of the beasts' mental or physical attributes.
    Nothing in Rev. 13 suggests literal discussion between the beasts or image and humankind.
    Why go to all the trouble of decapitations when a single well-placed bullet would be much faster, cheaper, and less messy? The executions could still be publicized for intimidation purposes.
    Note that Rev. 20:4 literally includes only those who have died via decapitation. Any others who have died by any other means are not included. The beast(s), of course, do not care what means of death are utilized.

    Gotta go. I feel an episode of psychosis coming on.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    The Reformers were well aware of the descriptions of antichrists in John's epistles. They did not believe that the papacy was the sole and exclusive antichrist, but rather that it was the predominant antichrist of that era. There have been, are, and will continue to be, many other antichrists.

    Any Jew is already an antichrist as a result of the denial of the Son. The papacy, while not Jewish, still qualifies as an antichrist i.e. another Christ e.g. "The Pope...is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." (Pius X)
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    If so, the reformers did not understand that John was likening them who were leaving Christianity in his day to the coming Antichrist, by his characteristics, not his qualifications to become the Antichrist.

    There is only going to be one Antichrist. That one person will become the revealed man of sin. It won't be many persons going into the temple sitting claiming to be God.

    It does not make the pope an antichrist, but a false prophet. The popes, none of them, deny the trinity. The popes, none of them, deny that Jesus is the Christ. "Anti" means both instead of and against.

    John was calling them in his days as "antichrists", likening them to the coming Antichrist, because they were denying that Jesus was the Christ, departing the truth. John was calling them who were leaving Christianity as antichrists. The jews were not part of Christianity. They are unbelievers, not antichrists. Their attitude against Jesus certainly exhibits the spirit of Antichrist already at work in John's and Paul's day. But John was not calling them antichrists.

    18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    An example of an antichrist would be someone who was a knowledgeable and professing Christian, who left Christianity to become a muslim, for example. You tube has many of them, in muslim testimony videos. Like Yusuf Estes. He is an antichrist.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    This is a classic description of apostasy, which was a classic description of the papacy.
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Musta felt good burning at the stake for being wrong.

    I'm quite certain that God did not raise up a movement to reclaim His true Church from spiritual darkness by being wrong.
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    "Beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it's referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

    Any mistaken teaching which claims the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

    A 2nd aspect of Revelation's beast is it's a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who's now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 to spiritually empower the empire of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being 3rd aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18).

    The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. The binding of a stone to a scroll (written down by the prophet Jeremiah) about the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon, and the casting of the scroll into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom (Jeremiah 51:63-64) could have been a symbolic act which included a representation of the binding of the 4 powerful fallen angels and their being cast into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom.

    When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, they will cause an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Figuratively, yes. But I thought you believed Scripture literally. Nowhere does Rev. 13 literally state that the beast is a man.

    This does not anthropomorphize the beast, but simply describes its gender.

    The beast can have the number of a man without being a man himself.

    Commonly called, but never literally declared to be.

    2 Tim. 3:17
    "That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
    Is the "man of God" exclusively an individual? If so, of all of the possible men of God, which one would he be?
    Obviously it is a reference to the class of men who qualify as men of God.
    So it is also with the "man of sin", in that instance the class of men, i.e. the popes, who drove the sin of the apostasizing church.

    The temple in 2 Thess. 2:4 is a "naos" temple. In every one of the eight instances in which Paul uses it in his epistles, it is the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church.

    Strong's Greek: 3485. ναός (naos)

    1 Corinthians 3:16 N-NMS
    GRK: οἴδατε ὅτι ναὸς θεοῦ ἐστὲ
    NAS: Do you not know that you are a temple of God
    KJV: that ye are the temple of God, and
    INT: Know you that temple of God you are

    1 Corinthians 3:17 N-AMS
    GRK: τις τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ
    NAS: destroys the temple of God,
    KJV: defile the temple of God,
    INT: anyone the temple of God

    1 Corinthians 3:17 N-NMS
    GRK: ὁ γὰρ ναὸς τοῦ θεοῦ
    NAS: will destroy him, for the temple of God
    KJV: destroy; for the temple of God is
    INT: indeed [the] temple of God

    1 Corinthians 6:19 N-NMS
    GRK: σῶμα ὑμῶν ναὸς τοῦ ἐν
    NAS: that your body is a temple of the Holy
    KJV: body is the temple of the Holy Ghost
    INT: body of you a temple of the in

    2 Corinthians 6:16 N-DMS
    GRK: δὲ συνκατάθεσις ναῷ θεοῦ μετὰ
    NAS: agreement has the temple of God
    KJV: agreement hath the temple of God
    INT: moreover agreement a temple of God with

    2 Corinthians 6:16 N-NMS
    GRK: ἡμεῖς γὰρ ναὸς θεοῦ ἐσμὲν
    NAS: with idols? For we are the temple of the living
    KJV: ye are the temple of the living God;
    INT: we indeed a temple of God are

    Ephesians 2:21 N-AMS
    GRK: αὔξει εἰς ναὸν ἅγιον ἐν
    NAS: into a holy temple in the Lord,
    KJV: unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    INT: increases to a temple holy in

    2 Thessalonians 2:4 N-AMS
    GRK: εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ
    NAS: that he takes his seat in the temple of God,
    KJV: sitteth in the temple of God, shewing
    INT: in the temple of God

    Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-6

    Pius IX was described as "the living Christ", and "the Lamb of the Vatican".

    Pius X said: "The Pope...is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."

    Pius XI, on 30 April 1922, in the Vatican throne room, said: "You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on the earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am God on the earth."

    The Canon Law in the Gloss on the Extravaganza of John XXII, AD 1316-1334, calls the Roman pontiff "Our Lord God the Pope."

    Martin V was addressed as: "The most holy and most blessed, who holds the celestial jurisdiction, who is Lord over all the earth...the anointed...the ruler of the universe, the father of kings, the Light of the World."

    During the Vatican Council, 9 January 1870, it was stated: "The Pope is Christ in office, Christ in jurisdiction and power...we bow down before thy voice, O Pius, as before the voice of Christ, the God of truth; in clinging to thee, we cling to Christ."

    The Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas said: "There is no difference between the Pope and Jesus Christ."

    Cardinal Henry Edward Manning said: "He [the Roman pope] was elevated to be, in his Divine Master's Name, King of kings and Lord of lords."

    “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17 Bellarmine (1542-1621), a professor and rector at the Jesuit Gregorian University in Rome, is generally considered to have been one of the outstanding Jesuit instructors in the history of this organization.

    “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as Kind of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art.Papa II” (Ferraris was an Italian Catholic canonist and consultor to the Holy Office in Rome.)

    “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

    All of these things have happened already.

  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    "He" is a literal male beast. "He" thus cannot literally be an angel or anything else.

    What keeps him from falling out of the bottom?

    If they're symbols, they're not literal.

    He's a literal beast. He can't be a literal prince.

    Only the beast was in the bottomless pit. But he probably fell out the bottom.

    The angels were bound at the Euphrates. They were not cast into it.

    They are described as literal horses only. It is their riders who are "strange".

    Gotta go. More psychosis coming on.
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    Countless numbers of people were persecuted and killed for objecting to, separating from, and not submitting to the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church and its corruption. But it was not because the papacy was the Antichrist.
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    7 of those times, Paul uses the term temple in a metaphoric sense. In 2thessalonians2:4 it is a literal temple, a physcial structure, because someone goes into the temple and sits. By committing that act, he does so to claim to be God.
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    The Reformation rested on two primary foundational doctrines: 1. The just shall live by faith. 2. The papacy is (an) antichrist. Both doctrines were widely disseminated, and were responsible for ultimately bringing the papacy to its knees. They unleashed the papacy's orgies of slaughter, and compelled it to contrive the counter-reformation, with its speculations of a futurized fantasized antichrist.

    If you use the KJV, here is a portion of the dedicatory epistle accompanying its release:
    "...by writing in defence of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that man of sin, as will not be healed,)..."

    From the historic Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XXV:
    "VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God."

    Notice the reference to 2 Thess. 2 and the locale of Antichrist "in the Church", not in a literal temple.

    The foregoing description appears essentially verbatim in the historic Baptist Confession of Faith.

    Contrary to your supposition, recognition of the papacy as antichrist and the man of sin was pervasive in the historic true Church, and pivotal in the historic papacy's downfall.
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    Matthew 23:1-2
    1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
    2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

    How many can sit at one time?

    See also post 134 re. the Reformation recognition of the locale of the man of sin "in the Church."
  16. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

    Its hopeless.
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    The book of Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning it shouldn't be difficult for Christians of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it which are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

    Just as Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the just-preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the Millennium in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal, and will begin right after Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when He will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

    Note that the idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist" for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity" for it to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

    Note that no pope, or any other man, ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no pope, or any other man, ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the "beast") in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9.

    The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

    The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off the Ark, showing it to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where is YHWH? He is not here! He is a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

    Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while 4 strong men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. The men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

    Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched hands. And as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could slowly zoom in on his face as he says in a deep voice: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. WORSHIP ME, ALL YE NATIONS OF THE EARTH!"

    (Compare Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

    Note that in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, like in Revelation 11:1-2, the original Greek word (naos: G3485) translated as "temple" is the same word used for an actual, physical temple in Matthew 23:16, Matthew 23:17, Matthew 23:21, Matthew 23:35, Matthew 27:5, Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 1:9, Luke 1:21, Luke 1:22, Luke 23:45 and John 2:20.

    Note that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" refers to an actual, physical temple. For your argument is like the argument of full preterism which claims the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all.

    Similarly, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" refers to an actual, physical temple.

    But why restrict Paul's use of "naos" to only his epistles? For he used "naos" in Acts 17:24 to refer to actual, physical temples.


    Regarding the bottomless pit, note that in Job 33:22 the original Hebrew word (shachath: H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit which is in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9-10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy: H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

    The bottomless pit may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). At one point during the 1st half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, strange locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment (but not kill) mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10).

    Note that the following, detailed description doesn't match the horses which now exist on the earth:

    Revelation 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
    18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
    19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

    Regarding these weird horse-like beings, because they will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them (Revelation 9:16) hidden on the earth, they could currently be living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from the earth, such as on the far side of the moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the 4th planet's surface).

    Also, the 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the Tribulation's 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) haven't come upon the earth yet, because 1/3 of mankind hasn't been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    United States
    I am not disagreeing that the reformers said that the Papacy was the Antichrist, and it was the widespread thinking at the time . But they were wrong about their conclusion.

    A few selected excerpt from a book the Antichrist, by Arthur Pink, 1923, ....The Antichrist - CHAPTER TWO. THE PAPACY NOT THE ANTICHRIST.
    No: our purpose has been simply to show that the early Christian writers uniformly held that the Antichrist would be a real person, a Jew, one who should both simulate and oppose the true Christ. Such continued to be the generally received doctrine until what is known as the Dark Ages were far advanced.
    It is not until we reach the fourteenth century (so far as the writer is aware) that we find the first marked deviation from the uniform belief of the early Christians. It was the Waldenses, - so remarkably sound in the faith on almost all point of doctrine - who, thoroughly worn out by centuries of the most relentless and merciless persecutions, published about the year 1350 a treatise designed to prove that the system of Popery was the Antichrist.
    . It should however be said in honor of this people, whose memory is blessed, that in one of their earliest books entitled "The Noble Lesson", published about 1100 A.D., they taught that the Antichrist was an individual rather than a system

    So jgr, a couple of hundred years before the Walenses themselves taught the Antichrist was an individual not a system.
    Following the new view espoused by the Waldenses it was not long before the Hussites, the Wycliffites and the Lollards - other companies of Christians who were fiercely persecuted by Rome - eagerly caught up the idea, and proclaimed that the Pope was the Man of Sin and the papacy the Beast. From them it was handed on to the leaders of the Reformation who soon made an earnest attempt to systematize this new scheme of eschatology. But rarely has there been a more forceable example of the tendency of men's belief to be mouled by the events and signs of their own lifetime. In order to adapt the prophecies of the Antichrist to the Papal hierarchy, or the line of the Popes, they had to be so wrested that scarcely anything was left of their original meaning.

    2. The Antichrist will be a lineal descendant of Abraham, a Jew. We shall not stop to submit the proof for this, as that will be given in our next chapter; suffice it now to say that none but a full-blooded Jew could ever expect to palm himself off on the Jewish people as their long-expected Messiah. Here is an argument that has never been met by those who believe that the pope is the Man of Sin. So far as we are aware no Israelite has ever occupied the Papal See - certainly none has done so since the seventh century.

    10. The Antichrist will deny both the Father and the Son: "He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son" (1 John 2:22). This scripture does not speak of virtual, but of actual and formal denial. But Rome has always maintained in her councils and creeds, her symbols of faith and worship, that there are three persons in the Godhead. Numerous and grievous have been her departures from the teaching of Holy Scripture, yet since the time of the Council of Trent (1563 A.D.) every Roman Catholic has had to confess "I believe in God the Father...and in the Lord Jesus Christ....and in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, which proceedeth from the Father and the Son".
    As a system Romanism is a go-between. The "priest" stands between the sinner and God; the `confessional' between him and the throne of grace; `penance' between him and godly sorrow; the `mass' between him and Christ; and `purgatory' between him and Heaven. The pope acknowledges both the Father and the Son: he confesses himself to be both the servant of God and His worshipper; he blesses the people not in his own name, but in that of the Holy Trinity.

  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter


    Given Jewish persecution of Christians, it is no surprise that some early writers presumed that antichrist would be a Jew. But as Pink correctly observes (although subsequently attempting to establish that argument via his own presumptions):
    "It should, however, be pointed out that there is no express declaration of Scripture which says in so many words that this daring Rebel will be "a Jew..."
    The early writers' assertions were thus not directly supportable from Scripture. But their writings were not inspired inerrant Scripture itself, so human error was predictable.

    Pink presents standard dispensational views regarding antichrist. But the introduction to "The Antichrist" also concedes:
    "He wrote two books on premillenialism, namely, "The Antichrist", and "The Redeemer's Return" (also online). It must be noted that A.W. Pink, later in his life, rejected many facets of premillenialism and dispensationalism as presented in these two works."

    Can a system which claims to acknowledge the Father and the Son, but which simultaneously claims to be God on the earth and Christ in the flesh, not be guilty of the denial of both?

    God raised up a chosen army of defenders of, and martyrs for, the faith. By His grace and mercy, they were successful in reclaiming His truth and those of His true Church. The success that God and His chosen army achieved did not involve any wrong conclusions.
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that it did. For the writings of the Reformers are not infallible scripture, like the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16).

    Also, when we keep to the Bible itself (remember sola scriptura?), we find that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Christ, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms Jesus is the Son of God, while the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, while the Antichrist will say he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms Lucifer (Satan) is evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his future, 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

    Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), could at first pretend to support Catholicism (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.


    The beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Aren't we all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but have only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

    He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say he is Jesus Himself returned (via reincarnation). But he won't say he's Christ. For the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ, and will deny Christ is in the flesh (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

    Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).


    If a secretly apostate pope does become the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 16:13), adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand he be removed for heresy and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines, because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).

    And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him and elect their own, new pope (or reinstall a former pope who's still alive), whom they could declare to be the "True Pope". But this new (or reinstated) "True Pope" could be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the Third Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss Guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

    After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken the physical power of the true Church (which consists of all true Christians, whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future Tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus Christ's Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God won't share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).