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Featured Everything I see convinces me Emmanuel Macron is the antichrist

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by IfThePuzzleFits, Sep 24, 2017.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So who you gonna believe?

    Partial list of Reformation defenders and martyrs of the faith:

    John Wycliffe, John Hus, Jerome of Prague, Savonarola, Peter Waldo, Wessel Harmenz Gansfort, Theodore Beza, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, Johannes Hus, John Calvin, Andreas von Carlstadt, Wolfgang Fabricius Capito, Martin Chemnitz, Thomas Cranmer, William Farel, Matthias Flacius, Caspar Hedio, Justus Jonas, John Knox, Jan Łaski, Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, Johannes Oecolampadius, Peter Martyr, Aonio Paleario, Laurentius Petri, Olaus Petri, John Wycliffe, Jiří Třanovský, William Tyndale, Joachim Vadian, Pierre Viret, Primož Trubar, Huldrych Zwingli, John of Leiden, Thomas Müntzer, Kaspar Schwenkfeld, Sebastian Franck, Menno Simons, Hans Denck, Conrad Grebel, Balthasar Hubmaier, Felix Manz

    or

    Bible2+"None of these things has happened yet"

    ?

    Easy decision for me.

    The Origin of Futurism
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The question is simple: Was the Reformers' conclusion that the papacy was antichrist, wrong?

    Would one expect God to be associated with a wrong conclusion, or a right conclusion? Obviously the latter.

    Was the Reformation of God? I'm convinced that it was, as was everyone in the true Church in the ensuing years up to the 19th century.

    Then was the conclusion of the Reformers also of God? I consider it reasonable to believe that it was, for it was an essential weapon in overcoming the papacy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    jgr, you seem to think that being martyrs is proof that the papacy is the Antichrist. It is not. The papacy qualifies as a false prophet, but not the Antichrist. Pink writes how the reformers had to bend the scriptures out of place to support their eschatology, Not the less of which is that 1260 days is 1260 years.
    The assertions are directly supportable from scripture, because they are using scripture to show that the Antichrist must be a Jew, albeit not a direct statement. Likewise, there is not a direct statement that the person will be a gentile either.

    The scriptures support that the Antichrist will be an individual, not a system.
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't disagree. But how many are there who have been martyred as a direct result of espousing futurism anywhere in the world? I'm not aware of one. If there are, the numbers are insignificant compared to those of the Reformers. Espousing speculation is not typically a high risk activity.

    The Reformers testified of extant and historical realities. The most salient reality was that of the papal antichrist. Those testimonies directly threatened the existence of the prevailing powers, and ultimately unseated them. The testimonies carried very high risk.

    And that is why there were numerous martyrs among the Reformers, and why there are none or comparatively few among futurists.
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The reformers developed an eschatological view in the reaction to the persecutuon by the RCC. Not that their Papacy is the Antichrist caused it.
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    The point of the Reformation was not to believe any fallible human, but to stick only with what the Bible itself teaches (sola scriptura).

    And when we look to the Bible itself, we discover that the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus Christ will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't started yet. For it will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. And after this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the U.S.'s eastern seaboard.

    If such a tsunami occurs, it could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the U.S.'s eastern seaboard. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

    After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

    Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who'd been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

    After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind desperate before its takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

    (And all this will be part of only the 1st half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

    It's at this point Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm he came to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, whom he could say is his only-begotten Son, called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

    Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

    Near the end of these 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

    When Jesus Christ returns, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), He will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the Church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    At that meeting, Jesus will judge the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as He defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), a time period commonly called the Millennium.

    At Jesus Christ's return, He will also make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the Millennium, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

    At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the Great White Throne Judgment will occur, in which all people who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus Christ's return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a New Heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and He will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the Church (Revelation 21:3).

    In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the New Earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

    *******

    Yes.

    But the Reformers' conclusion that the papacy of their time was wrong, wasn't wrong.

    *******

    There will be many Christian Futurist martyrs in our future, just as there will be many Christian Preterist and Historicist martyrs in our future.

    For all Christians, no matter what their eschatology, need to read Mark 13:9-13 as possibly applicable to them if they're Biblical Christians. For in our future, "political correctness" could make Biblical Christianity "hate speech", because the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27), and that Christianity is the only way to be saved (John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12), and that all other religions are cursed, doubly cursed (Galatians 1:8-9).

    Be prepared to be arrested and tried before courts of law for the violation of "hate speech" laws which could be instituted in our future (by the Supreme Court, without any approval from the People in Congress). If you are brought to trial, remember Mark 13:9-13, and testify as God's Holy Spirit gives you at that time. But don't expect to be set free after your testimony. You must be willing to face imprisonment and even execution for the truths of Jesus Christ and His Word the Holy Bible (Matthew 24:9-13, Mark 8:34-38, John 8:31b).
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Was the Reformation of God? Yes or no will suffice.
     
  8. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Yes or No can't suffice because the Reformation was partly of God and partly not of God.

    The Reformation idea of Sola scriptura was of God. For it should have broken Protestants off of relying on any fallible human for their doctrine, and get them back focusing only on what the Bible itself teaches (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4).

    But the Reformation idea of Sola fide was not of God, insofar as while it's true that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Also, the Reformation idea that the papacy was the Antichrist was not of God.

    Also, Calvin's murder of Servetus was not of God.

    Also, Luther's rejection of the books of Revelation and James was not of God.

    Also, the Protestant rejection of transubstantiation was not of God.

    Also, the Protestant continuance of infant baptism was not of God.

    Also, the Protestant continuance of non-immersion baptism was not of God.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is entirely unsurprising that the Reformation's declaration of the apostate papacy as (an) antichrist is anathema to futurism. The confirmation of the doctrinal impact of that declaration is seen in the apostate papacy's orchestration of the counter-reformation, with its production by the Jesuit Ribera of the counterfeit doctrine of a futurized Antichrist. Futurism denies and rejects the scriptural Reformation teaching, and embraces and espouses that produced by the apostate papacy. Futurism thus represents a continuation of that apostasy.

    God set out to raise up a Reformation army to emancipate and deliver His true Church from spiritual enslavement and darkness. The two salient doctrines which achieved His purpose were 1. The just shall live by faith. 2. The papacy is (an) antichrist. That purpose would not have been achieved in the absence of either doctrine. It is therefore indisputable that both of these doctrines were of God.
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that it's also anathema to the Biblical definition of an antichrist (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

    Note that neither Christian Futurism nor Catholicism is apostate. For neither has fallen away from faith in Jesus Christ and His saving Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    That's right, insofar as the Reformation taught that Christians should base all their doctrine on "sola scriptura".

    But if by a Reformation "army", you're including the literal armies of Protestants who slaughtered their fellow Christians (Catholics) in physical battles, those armies were not of God at all.

    For under the Old Covenant, murder was forbidden (Deuteronomy 5:17), while killing in a war commanded by God was required (1 Samuel 15:3). But under the New Covenant, which Christians are under (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), Christians are commanded never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39, Matthew 26:52). They're to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c). For Christians are commanded to love even their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and this means they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

    It's the meek who will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5, Psalms 37:11).

    Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus Christ at His 1st coming set the example for what Christians are to do when they're physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). They're to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient Christians don't fear death (Hebrews 2:15) and don't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but hate their lives in this world, so they might retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38). For obedient Christians know being killed is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this fallen world (Philippians 1:23).

    During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Christians (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as Christians have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11).

    Note that the purpose of spiritually delivering Christians from the papacy only required "sola scriptura". For the papacy isn't scriptural, but is based on a man-made doctrine of "apostolic succession".

    That is, all the Reformers had to do was insist on the scriptural doctrine that Jesus Christ Himself is the highest apostle (Hebrews 3:1). And He can ordain people directly, without any other apostles having to be involved (Acts 26:13-20).

    Also, Acts 14:14 shows that eventually there were at least 14 apostles of Jesus Christ, including Paul and Barnabas, and the 12 apostles of Acts 1:26.

    Also, if the pope were the apostolic successor of Peter, then who were the apostolic successors of the at least 13 other apostles besides Peter?

    Did all the other lines of apostolic succession peter out? And if so, how could that be? How could the Church at the time of the Reformers need only one apostolic successor while the early Church needed at least 14 apostles?

    What had happened?

    -

    Also, the Reformers could have simply shown that Matthew 16:18 wasn't establishing the papacy, but meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus Christ Himself (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the Church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the Church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

    That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus Christ (Psalms 107:16), when, after His physical resurrection, He went down and liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament believers from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

    Regarding the 1st doctrine you mentioned: The just shall live by faith, it is indeed from God, because it's scriptural (Romans 1:17). But the Reformers' doctrine of "sola fide" was not from God. For scripture shows that Christians must have both faith and works if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8)

    Regarding the 2nd doctrine you mentioned: The papacy is (an) antichrist, it's not from God, because it's not in line with the scriptural definition of an antichrist (1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It should be clarified that it is the historical papacy rather than the contemporary RCC (Roman Catholic Church) which is the primary focus of the scrutiny here, although there will also be references to the contemporary RCC. As a result of the Reformation, there were many significant changes made which are still found in today's RCC, and there are unquestionably many true believers in Christ within it.

    That being said, the question must be posed: If the Reformation had not succeeded and the papacy's historical supremacy continued, would the pogroms of terror, torture, and slaughter, which it unleashed for more than 1000 years on as many as 50 million true believers and dissidents, also have continued? It must realistically be acknowledged that the answer could be yes.

    A further clarification to be noted is that the Reformers not infrequently used “antichrist” as a generic expression encompassing not only the descriptions in John's epistles, but also those in the fulfilled prophecies in e.g. Daniel, Thessalonians, and Revelation.

    1 John 2:22
    Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    Pius X: "The Pope...is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
    Pius XI: "You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on the earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am God on the earth."

    To claim to be God and Christ is to deny that there is only one God, and only one Christ, contrary to Deuteronomy 6:4:
    Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord

    2 John 1:7
    For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    Jesus himself came as sinless flesh, but he came in the sinful flesh of Mary. This is denied by the RCC doctrine of the immaculate conception, which claims that Mary herself was sinless. The RCC also claims that Christ inherited His sinlessness from Mary:

    “Jesus was the sinless Son of God. He took his sinless nature from his mother.”
    Mary: A Catholic / Evangelical Debate, Dwight Longenecker, David Gustafson, Gracewing Publishing, 2003, ISBN 0852445822, pg. 55.

    Whatever Catholicism is today, it would be an egregious error to claim that the historical apostate papacy, which terrorized, tortured, and slaughtered millions over hundreds of years, had not “fallen away from the faith.” Paul specifically declared in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 that it would:

    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition”

    The Reformers recognized the papal apostasy and antichrist in Paul's inspired foresight.

    Predictably, contemporary futurism futurizes Paul's declaration, and rejects its recognition by the Reformers, as it echoes the apostate papacy's own futurized attempts to evade responsibility. Contemporary futurism is thus inescapably complicit in apostasy.

    Any warfare other than spiritual by the Reformers is indefensible. But any implication that their transgressions compare in any way with the magnitude and duration of the papacy's is simply the epitome of disproportionality.

    Agreed. So if the papacy, with full knowledge of the Scriptures you've cited, was not apostate, why did it embark upon and persist in its apostate orgies of terror, torture, and slaughter of millions over hundreds of years?

    It is interesting that contemporary futurism's futurization exceeds even that of the RCC in various instances e.g. Matthew 24, wherein the RCC recognizes historical prophetic fulfillment in various of the verses. This is in contrast with contemporary futurism, which futurizes virtually the whole chapter.

    Spiritually, all that the Reformers had to do, and all that they would logically be expected to do, and all that they did do, was to utilize every scriptural weapon available to them in their battle against the papal antichrist. And those weapons took the form of the incontrovertible historical prophetic fulfillments found at various locations in Scripture. Daniel 7 furnished a number of those weapons. Thus for example:

    Daniel 7:24
    And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    is fulfilled in the ten kings of the ten kingdoms that emerged from the dissolution of the pagan Roman empire: the Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons. The horn that arose after them is the papacy. The three kings who were subdued by the papacy were of the kingdoms of the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths.

    Daniel 7:25
    And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    “Speak great words against the most High” is fulfilled in the papacy's antichristian claims seen above, and numerous others. “Wear out the saints of the most High” is a remarkable description of a campaign lasting hundreds of years and claiming millions of lives. “Change times and laws” is a reference to the papacy's change of the Sabbath and alteration of the contents of the Ten Commandments. “Time and times and the dividing of time” is a description of a 1260 year period of the lifespan of the papacy from 538 AD to 1798 AD.

    Predictably, again, contemporary futurism's intransigent refusal to recognize historical prophetic fulfillment compels it to emulate the apostate papacy's own futurism, and futurize this prophecy. But the Reformers' hindsight and insight in recognizing actual fulfillment was an indispensably formidable and effective weapon in its battle against the papal antichrist. To ignore such a weapon would have invited or guaranteed the failure of the Reformation's mission. To utilize it was to ultimately ensure success.

    That is, of course, the Catholic perspective. But the prophetically fulfilled scriptures which the Reformers used to identify antichrist, primarily those in Daniel 7, 2 Thessalonians 2, John's epistles, and Revelation 13; do not deal specifically with justification.

    Dealt with above.


    Other papal claims are listed below. None has ever to this day been publicly repudiated by the RCC:

    Pius IX was described as "the living Christ", and "the Lamb of the Vatican".

    The Canon Law in the Gloss on the Extravaganza of John XXII, AD 1316-1334, calls the Roman pontiff "Our Lord God the Pope."

    Martin V was addressed as: "The most holy and most blessed, who holds the celestial jurisdiction, who is Lord over all the earth...the anointed...the ruler of the universe, the father of kings, the Light of the World."

    During the Vatican Council, 9 January 1870, it was stated: "The Pope is Christ in office, Christ in jurisdiction and power...we bow down before thy voice, O Pius, as before the voice of Christ, the God of truth; in clinging to thee, we cling to Christ."

    The Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas said: "There is no difference between the Pope and Jesus Christ."

    Cardinal Henry Edward Manning said: "He [the Roman pope] was elevated to be, in his Divine Master's Name, King of kings and Lord of lords."

    “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17 Bellarmine (1542-1621), a professor and rector at the Jesuit Gregorian University in Rome, is generally considered to have been one of the outstanding Jesuit instructors in the history of this organization.

    “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as Kind of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art.Papa II” (Ferraris was an Italian Catholic canonist and consultor to the Holy Office in Rome.)

    “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.
     
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Not Catholic doctrine. Also, while this claim was absurd, it's different than the claim of the future Antichrist, who will say Jesus is not the Christ (1 John 2:22).

    Note he'd just finished saying he was only "the representative" of God on earth. So he was not claiming equality with God, but meant his authority was the same as God's on the earth. While this claim was absurd, it's different than the claim of the future Antichrist, who will say he's God Himself (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

    While this claim is mistaken, it's different than the claim of the future Antichrist, who will deny Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

    Gnosticism is an ancient religious movement which says everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is pure spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches all humans used to be pure spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven, called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and of all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering in fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

    Gnosticism became one of the main enemies of the early Church, and it will become the greatest enemy of the Church during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

    Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with Buddhism and Hinduism:

    1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

    2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely, and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.

    3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.

    4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, while they see YHWH as the bad guy.)

    The Bible contradicts each of the 4 points above:

    1. The material realm is real, and was created by YHWH God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). God himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39) and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there's nothing evil about matter in itself.

    2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11) in an immortal human body of flesh and bones like the immortal human body of flesh and bones which Jesus Christ obtained at His resurrection on the 3rd day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), and in which He will remain forever as Christians' fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and at His Second Coming, He will show the scars of the Crucifixion on His body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living on a New Earth with God (Revelation 21:1-4).

    4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).

    Note that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has never been fulfilled, because no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15).

    Note that it isn't, because Christian Futurism, just as Catholicism, has never apostatized from faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    For the same reason that almost all Christians today are not pacifists, but supported the U.S. slaughter of millions in warfare during World War II.

    Note that just as the highly detailed Tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, so the Tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 have never been fulfilled. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same, future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the future Antichrist's literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the Church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

    In Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear) and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria and Syria.

    Regarding the "time and times and the dividing of time", it and the 42 months, and the 1,260 days referred to elsewhere: they're all the same time period in the prophecies of Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2-3, and Revelation 12:6,14. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days, and the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days.

    Daniel 7:25 isn't referring to a pope changing the time of the sabbath, but to the future Antichrist, who could radically change the calendar to where he will even get rid of the 7-day week, with its connotation to YHWH God and His 7-day creation of the world (Genesis 2:2). For the future Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

    The Antichrist could do what the atheists of the French Revolution did: Change the calendar to one consisting of 10-day weeks. Then he could say every month will consist of 3 of these 10-day weeks, so a year will consist of 12 months of 30 days each. But because this will make a year only 360 days, he could add a 5 or 6-day holiday period at the end of the year.

    Like they did in the French Revolution, the Antichrist could also change the names of the 12 months to whatever pleases him. And he could change the names of his 10 days of the week to whatever pleases him.

    The Antichrist's changing of "times" could even extend to the hour, minute and second. For he could replace the 60-second minute with a 10-second "new minute", and the 60-minute hour with a 10-new-minute "new hour", so the decimal-based metric system will finally be extended to time-keeping.

    But because a new, 100-second new-hour would mean there would be 864 new-hours in a day, the Antichrist could change the length of the second to a "new-second" consisting of about 86.4 of our current seconds, so there will be exactly 10 new-hours in every day. Times shorter than the new-second will be metric: the deci-new-second, the centi-new-second (about .864 the length of our current second), the milli-new-second, etc.

    So the Antichrist's "changing of times" could seem pretty neat to the world (and to metric-system-loving scientists): 10 days in a week, 10 hours in a day, 10 minutes in an hour, and 10 seconds in a minute.

    This could be sold to the world as part of a "New World Order", as a way of (in the Antichrist's words) "finally shedding all the archaic time-keeping conventions, and replacing them with a modern and scientific system of time-keeping in line with the metric system of weights and measures, which has already proven to be such a boon to mankind".

    Nor were they fulfilled by the papacy. For example, the papacy never fulfilled the "mark of the beast" of Revelation 13.

    Ask the pope today, or ask any Catholic today, if the pope is Christ Himself or God Himself. They will laugh in your face, because the idea is so ridiculous.

    Also, any mistaken teaching which says the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,025
    Non-Denom
    The RCC has never repudiated the claim, therefore it is still doctrine. To claim to be another Christ is to deny the one and only Christ.

    He concluded by saying that he was God on the earth, which was no different from his predecessor's claim of being Christ in the flesh; and which was a denial of the one and only God. Never repudiated by the RCC.

    Never repudiated by the RCC, therefore not considered mistaken.

    2 Thessalonians 2:4 is fulfilled by the papal man of sin who sits in spiritual authority within the Church and proclaims himself God (as seen in the above quotes). Daniel 11:36 refers to Herod. Matthew 24:15 refers to the Romans during the destruction of Jerusalem.

    The apostate papacy was the predominant spiritual and secular authority during its reign. It was never threatened militarily by the saints, yet itself "made war with the saints, and wore them out." (Daniel 7:21,25). There is no parallel with the US, which was militarily threatened by the Axis coalition.

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 have been almost completely fulfilled historically in the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea in the time period of 70 AD.

    The ten kingdoms emerging from the pagan Roman empire were the Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons.

    The historical papacy reigned from 538 AD to 1798 AD, a period of 1260 years corresponding to the time period of 3.5 years when the day-year prophetic correlation is applied.

    Daniel 7:25 refers to the papacy changing the sabbath and alteration of the Ten Commandments, as well as instituting unscriptural rituals, practices, times, and observances e.g. "holy days".

    All applicable prophecies in Daniel 7, 2 Thessalonians 2, John's epistles, and Revelation 13 are fulfilled by the papal antichrist. The mark of the beast is fulfilled in VICARIVS FILII DEI.

    No pope or any other Catholic has ever officially repudiated the historic claims.

    The papacy is still with us; it has not gone.
     
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Note that it isn't. For ask the pope today or any other Catholic if it's the doctrine of the RCC that the pope is Jesus Christ Himself. They will all reject that idea as false doctrine.

    Note that no pope ever claimed to be "another" Christ, just as no pope ever denied that Jesus is the Christ, as the future Antichrist will do (1 John 2:22), and without ever claiming to be Christ himself.

    Also, note that no pope ever denied YHWH God the Father, as the future (Gnostic) Antichrist will do (1 John 2:22b).

    But the preceding context showed that he meant he had God's authority on the earth.

    The RCC idea of the Immaculate Conception is mistaken because it's not Biblical. Also, that RCC idea doesn't claim that Christ isn't in the flesh, as the future (Gnostic) Antichrist will claim (1 John 4:3).

    Note that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 makes no reference to the Church, but to a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

    For Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the Church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the future Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

    Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque to keep the temple from being "defiled".

    But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

    At the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the Second Coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the Church during the future Millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the Church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

    Note that they refer to the future Antichrist, just as Daniel 11:31 does. For regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54 which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus Christ's statement in Matthew 24:15 the Church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future when the Church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15) after they've stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

    The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the 1st and only time (2 Thessalonians 2:4), he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the 1st part antitypically and the rest for the 1st and only time) when he arises on the world stage. For that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by a future, Iraqi Baathist General (the Antichrist's precursor) who will defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

    Daniel 7:21,25 refers to the future Antichrist.

    Similarly, Daniel 12:7b means at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, He will come to a Church which will have been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the Church and overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the Church that the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' Second Coming will immediately occur, at which time He will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the Church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at His Second Coming, Jesus Christ will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so He/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For He/God won't share this glory with the Church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

    Note that Protestant armies threatened the pope much more than Axis armies ever threatened the U.S. itself.

    Also, Christians are never to respond with violence to any threat, or even outright attack (Matthew 5:39).

    Note that they haven't. For example, regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), this doesn't have to mean 1st century AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile Christians, not just Jewish Christians. The Church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the Church, whether Gentiles or Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

    The future Antichrist's persecution of the Church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the Church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the Church (not in hiding) will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). So the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to Christians around the world.

    Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents different people in the Church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the Church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15), they should flee to places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the Church who will be living in places other than Judaea should flee to other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

    And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of canned food, bottled water, warm clothing and bedding, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (cf. 1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus Christ returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Note that they weren't. For the Roman empire consisted not only of parts of Europe, but also included the Middle East and North Africa. So the 10 nations emerging from the former territory of the Roman empire could be the present-day nations of Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria and Syria. Also, the 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. And the Europeans could be the iron and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43 the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

    Note that there is no such thing (yet) as "The historical papacy", in the sense that the papacy never ceased to exist, and it continues on today.

    Also, Revelation chapters 11 to 14 show from 4 different angles the same, literal, and never-fulfilled, 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13) of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), which will occur after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 10 and before the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 15 to 21, and which reign will legally end at the future Tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15).

    [Similarly, the 70 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5), and the 400 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Genesis 15:13 were literal years.]

    Also, just as Revelation chapters 12 to 14 have never been fulfilled, neither has Revelation 11.

    For example, in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the Two Witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the Transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4 the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

    Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the Transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the Two Witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

    Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And the archangel Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like how, for example, Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could be alive at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

    The Two Witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3,6) of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That's why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the Two Witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the Tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). The Two Witnesses will be taken up to heaven before the Tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

    They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

    Note that nothing requires that. Instead, Daniel 7:25 can refer to the future Antichrist making radical changes to our calendar and system of time-keeping.

    Note that they aren't. For example, the papacy never fulfilled Revelation 13's "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:14-15).

    Note that it isn't. For "Vicarius Filii Dei", a title of the pope, was never placed as a mark on the hand or forehead of people (Revelation 13:16). Also, no one was ever unable to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17) without receiving a mark of the pope.

    Also, instead of "The mark of the beast", did you mean the "number" of the beast, 666 (Revelation 13:18)?

    If so, note that "Vicarius Filii Dei" only equals 666 when by mistake people use the Roman-numeral method of counting the number of a name:

    V = 5
    I = 1
    C = 100
    A
    R
    I = 1
    U = 5 (because under this method U is the same as V)
    S

    F
    I = 1
    L = 50
    I = 1
    I = 1

    D = 500
    E
    I = 1

    Total = 666

    This doesn't mean the pope is the Antichrist. It just means the Roman-numeral method gives false positives. For example:

    E
    L = 50
    L = 50
    E
    N

    G
    O
    U = 5
    L = 50
    D = 500

    W = 10 (because W = double U = UU = VV)
    H
    I = 1
    T
    E

    Total = 666

    This doesn't mean the most important early leader of the SDA view is the Antichrist. It just means the SDA view (or any other view) shouldn't employ the Roman-numeral method of counting the number of a name, instead of the Bible's own method, which is gematria.

    That doesn't mean that Catholics or any sane pope has ever believed that the pope is God Himself or Jesus Christ Himself.

    Then are you claiming that the papacy is still the Antichrist, so that the Antichrist hasn't "come and gone"?

    That's right, which contradicts the mistaken, SDA, "538 AD to 1798 AD" idea.

    Are you SDA?

    Also, are you aware that SDA doctrine is in many respects different than Reformed doctrine?

    Also, which of the Reformers ever referred to the "538 AD to 1798 AD" idea?

    And how could the Reformers have referred to it, when they lived hundreds of years before 1798?
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,025
    Non-Denom
    We're now just reiterating our own arguments, so time for our readers to decide. History is pure reality. The historical fulfillments stand. The historical evidence stands. The faith and sacrifices of the Reformers stand, despite all efforts to impugn them. The success of the Reformation attests to the Reformers' empowered accuracy in recognizing the fulfillments and evidence, and utilizing them as effective spiritual weapons in achieving that success. You and I would not be having this discussion absent the Reformation. The papal antichrist's apostate counter reformation and futurism have for this moment in Church history succeeded beyond its wildest expectations. They will not endure. Futurism's apostate speculations and fantasies will disappear. The Church will return to her prophetic roots before Christ's return, and she will be presented as a bride fit for her Groom.

    And as the song says, "We'll understand it better by and by."
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    True history is reality, but note there can also be false history based on sources which are mistaken or even intentionally biased.

    Note there have been no historical fulfillments of the Biblical passages regarding the future Antichrist, or the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    For example, the Tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) has never been fulfilled, but could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes farther away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

    That's impossible to prove, because there's no way to know if there could have eventually been an internal reformation in the RCC led by an enlightened pope who even dismantled the papacy, like how Gorbachev's reforms in the U.S.S.R. eventually helped to bring about its dismantling.

    Similarly, your argument is like those non-pacifists who say Americans would have no freedoms today were it not for the violence of the American Revolution.

    But the U.S.'s founding fathers rebelled against YHWH God when they rebelled against the King of England. For YHWH God has commanded people not to rebel against established governmental authorities (Romans 13). If the people of America had only been more patient, like, for example, the people of Canada and Australia were more patient, they could have obtained liberty from the King of England without having to have waged war against him, and without having to have caused the completely unnecessary early deaths of so many people during the American Revolutionary War, and then the War of 1812.

    Note that the Reformation, in order to succeed, didn't require a belief that the pope was the Antichrist. All it required to succeed was a belief in sola scriptura, and the printing of Bibles for the masses in their native tongues. God's Word would take care of the rest (Isaiah 55:11).

    Also, note that neither Christian Futurism nor Catholicism has ever been apostate, because neither has ever fallen away from faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    Note that the Church's prophetic roots include futurism, looking to "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b).

    Also, within the Church, the mistaken formulation of historicism (in its various modern forms), as well as preterism (whether full or partial), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of historicism, preterism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the Church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through the Tribulation.

    Preterism says the Tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church into the 3rd heaven before the Tribulation. Symbolicism says the Tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which Christians have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some Christians have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says the Tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

    But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the Church and the Tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the Church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some Christians unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some Christians ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the Tribulation, when they will become "offended" that God is letting them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

    Even though the Church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future Tribulation, the Church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many Christians will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,025
    Non-Denom
    2 Peter 1
    19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


    The more sure word of prophecy is the fulfilled word of prophecy. This the Word has given us in abundance.

    Futurism's speculations are the antithesis of the sure word of prophecy, and are the quintessence of private interpretation.

    They will not endure.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    It's also unfulfilled Biblical prophecy, which will also surely be fulfilled in our future.

    For example, the world will surely experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the final stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have also surely been fulfilled in our future.

    At the 1st vial, an awful sore will appear on those people who will have received the future Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all natural, surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, mankind will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future Tribulation.

    At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9), and the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together to fight YHWH God Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12), such as the vast armies of India and China, can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16), which is Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel. Once the armies of the east have gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there. That's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon. Instead, the armies will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH) returns from heaven and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

    At the 7th vial, right before Jesus Christ returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

    Are you saying the unfulfilled prophecy of Jesus' Second Coming is less sure? That is might not happen? Of course you aren't saying that.

    But why does historicism, like partial preterism, believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:

    1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

    2. The Second Coming and rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

    3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

    Historicism, like partial preterism, might answer: "It's obvious the Second Coming hasn't happened yet". And that's right. But full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims the Second Coming, resurrection and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument which historicism and partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If historicism and partial preterism have no problem accepting the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church and rapture haven't occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does historicism and partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 haven't occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,025
    Non-Denom
    I've been seeking an answer to the following question on other threads, so far unsuccessfully:

    Who are "us" and "them" and "you" and "ye" in the following verses?

    Matthew 24
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    25 Behold, I have told you before.
    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +374
    Christian
    Private
    Note that while Jesus Christ was originally speaking with His apostles in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, in His mind all Christians of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). So the "ye" in Matthew 24 doesn't require Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the lifetime of the apostles. The "ye" will see "all these things" (Matthew 24:33-34), including Jesus' never-fulfilled Second Coming (Matthew 24:30-34). The "ye" must watch (stay awake, spiritually) for the Second Coming (Matthew 24:42,44).

    Also, Bible prophecy isn't missing any information, insofar as in it, Jesus Christ has told Christians everything they need to know in order not to be deceived by anything that's coming: "take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). "Take heed lest any man deceive you" (Mark 13:5).

    The main reason the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything Christians alive at the time of the future Tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus Christ returns immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future Tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the Tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
     
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