Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

[Eight Foot Manchild]

the soul controls the physical body, thus bears responsibility for it's actions.

All you've done here is restate your point.

Once again, it doesn't help you. Once again, even if the soul is infinite, we are only judged for our actions during our finite time on Earth. That is what you are tasked with addressing if you want to make a case that eternal torture is 'justified'.

 

[doubtingmerle]

In the Bible when the Jews fell into temptation with the nations around them, and started worshiping pagan Gods, they because so engaged with these false religions that they became gross and nasty. Even the pagan nations started to distance themselves from them. They were worse sinners than all of the nations around them. Their former sins returned, and their latter end was worse than the beginning.

Or so you heard from Yahweh's salemen. Did it ever occur to you that the salesmen might have been using hyperbole?

 

[createdtoworship]

You can read every single word of the bible 100 times over and not once will you find the words "immortal soul" in it. It is not in it. It is a concept that derived from Greek philosophy, never from Christianity. God did not tell Adam and if that if they ate of the tree their souls would burn in hell forever. He plainly said they would die. Not one word about souls there at all. And please don't tell me that He meant their souls---either way---they would die not burn forever!! If you want to consider that God was telling a half truth, you have a warped sense of God! He doesn't lie, He dioesn't tell 1/2 truths. The unrepentant sinner will pay in the lake of fire according to their works---not forever.
One has to take into account how the word forever is used. I've said, and so has everyone else, that waiting on the phone for these machines to answer can take "forever"---well, it doesn't. Jonah was not in the belly of that whale forever, he just felt like it had been. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire---it is not still burning---they are however, still dead! The price of sin is death, that means at their appoointed time in the lake of fire, they will be dead forever.
The concept that babies and those that do not understand sin will burn forever is not of God. God is love, God is justice. He can not go against His charcter.
God states He will destroy sin, "Sin will not rise a second time." As long as there are sinners burning, there is sin. God remakes the earth anew---there will be no more tears, no more pain---as long as there is a burning hell there are tears and pain. Hell, and death will all be destroyed--permanently, forever. Not that the burning goes on forever.

you also cannot find soda pop, or trinity, or rapture (rapture is a latin word), that does not mean all those things don't exist and are not true. There are alot of things the Bible does not say. Thats ok. I know the soul is eternal because it goes to an eternal heaven. The soul cannot be destroyed. The body can but the body becomes glorified in order to make it immortal, just so the eternal fires of hell won't consume flesh and bone.

 

[createdtoworship]

I am confused why you write a diatribe explaining that Christians expect salvation in Christ, when I already told you, as a Christian, I had expected salvation in Christ.

But no matter how much one believes it, if some are going to hell for not truly being saved, then one always has to question whether he is one of those destined for hell.

It was not only hell I feared. It was the thought that everyday I was experiencing thoughts that were so horrible they made me worthy of hell fire. That is misery that no child should be put through. One could never hide from the internal thought police that judged me for every natural thought I ever had.

As others have explained, opening ourselves up to views that we are not deserving of eternal torment can be truly liberating.

you are right, no child should have to go through that. That is why I don't recommend alot of hyper pentecostal churches. I am pentecostal, but we are mildly so. And many pentecostal churches teach their followers to live in fear over salvation, which is not right.

But the Bible does not teach that.

As I have said.

any one of the many grace centered websites that may help you.

this one is basically good, basic, but good.
Is It Possible for Me to Lose My Salvation?

Now there is more to the story than just that link.

but for your situation, I think you needed more grace. And less condemnation.

The Bible says in John that Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

here is another link, about the differences between conviction and condemnation

Condemnation versus Conviction

 

[mmksparbud]

you also cannot find soda pop, or trinity, or rapture (rapture is a latin word), that does not mean all those things don't exist and are not true. There are alot of things the Bible does not say. Thats ok. I know the soul is eternal because it goes to an eternal heaven. The soul cannot be destroyed. The body can but the body becomes glorified in order to make it immortal, just so the eternal fires of hell won't consume flesh and bone.

There is no rapture, not as is taught, the word trinity is not in the bible, the concept of the three certainly is, immortal soul, is not there in any form. Please state the verse where the lost are given eternal life. It is a gift only to the saved.

 

[gaara4158]

thats ok, it's basic geometry anyways.

Basic geometry is irrelevant to the metaphysics of time, souls, and experience.

 

[lasthero]

but of sins you did when you were a baby.

Stop.

Pardon if you’ve answered this already, but what sins could I have possibly done as a baby?

I was a baby. I wasn’t even capable of coherent thought. How can I commit a sin, much less be held responsible for it?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Gradyll,

I don't know if I will ever be able to get you to understand this, but let me try one more time: As a child I was taught that the mere feeling of anger was sin and that merely having an angry or hateful thought made one deserving of hell. Your words have said that you agree with what I was taught.

But now you seem to be bobbing and weaving so please answer the question clearly: Do you or do you not believe that if a person experiences an angry thought towards another person, that this one thought causes him to deserve eternal fire in hell? Please answer.

you are right, no child should have to go through that.

Please understand that it was words very much like yours that caused me to go through the horrors I experienced as a child.

That is why I don't recommend alot of hyper pentecostal churches. I am pentecostal, but we are mildly so. And many pentecostal churches teach their followers to live in fear over salvation, which is not right.

But the Bible does not teach that.

As I have said.

any one of the many grace centered websites that may help you.

this one is basically good, basic, but good.
Is It Possible for Me to Lose My Salvation?

Now there is more to the story than just that link.

​

You don't understand. I knew all about salvation in Christ. I had accepted Christ as savior. But again and again the doubts would come that I hadn't done it sincerely or maybe had been missing something. I would repeat in my mind that I was accepting Christ. And again and again I would read things about grace like you suggest. And again and again I would convince myself that, even though I was having many hurtful thoughts and feelings, every one of which made me deserving of eternal torment and fire, that I wasn't really going to get the torment I so completely deserved.

And your solution? You ask me to do exactly what I did, to remind myself and convince myself that even though I was such a horrible person that frequently did things worthy of eternal torment, I will not get what I deserve.

​

but for your situation, I think you needed more grace. And less condemnation.

​

Telling me that my impulses make me worthy of eternal torment is not condemnation?

I now have a life free of the torments of my childhood. I now understand that I am the result of a long process of evolution, a process that has bred in me a fight or flight response when I perceive I am attacked. And when that flight or flight response becomes intense, it can produce thoughts and emotions that we identify as anger or hate. Evolution bred that in me. But that is not all evolution bred in me. It also produced emotions of love and compassion and the desire to build deep cooperative relationships with those that reciprocate. And evolution built in me the cognitive resources to sort through the various emotions and thoughts, and establish rational reactions that make for good outcomes in most circumstances.

Evolution also created a consciousness in me, but my consciousness is not really in charge. Rather, my brain is continually responding with a mass of thoughts and emotions, a stream of which filters to the top and becomes my conscious train of thought. And this consciousness, which I call "me", can observe the interacting thoughts and watch them work through my problems.

So rather than condemn myself for having some thoughts that are not the best, I can simply observe the brain--that great brain that evolution has given folks like you and me--and watch it work through the mass of thoughts to chart a good course of action.

I no longer condemn myself for having certain feelings. They happen. I feel them. I work through them. I move on. It is far better then the guilt I felt merely for experiencing the natural workings of the human brain.

​

 

[createdtoworship]

There is no rapture, not as is taught, the word trinity is not in the bible, the concept of the three certainly is, immortal soul, is not there in any form. Please state the verse where the lost are given eternal life. It is a gift only to the saved.

so then your point is useless, if trinity is not in the Bible. After all you were asking for specific words, and just because they are not there does not mean the concept is not there. Like you said, the concept of "three in one" is found in the Bible, but not trinity. And likewise while your specific word recipe is not found, there is definitely the concept of eternal life for both the wicked and righteous.

if the souls of the wicked were not eternal, why resurrect the body of the wicked?

it would make sense if the soul was just going to die, that the soul would go to the grave, not that the body of the wicked would rise again.

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Acts 24:15b

 

[createdtoworship]

Basic geometry is irrelevant to the metaphysics of time, souls, and experience.

time is a physical property, just as three dimensions change the effect of two dimensional universes, and add more options, time does as well. The flat land illustration is basic geometry.

 

[createdtoworship]

Gradyll,

I don't know if I will ever be able to get you to understand this, but let me try one more time: As a child I was taught that the mere feeling of anger was sin and that merely having an angry or hateful thought made one deserving of hell. Your words have said that you agree with what I was taught.

But now you seem to be bobbing and weaving so please answer the question clearly: Do you or do you not believe that if a person experiences an angry thought towards another person, that this one thought causes him to deserve eternal fire in hell? Please answer.


Please understand that it was words very much like yours that caused me to go through the horrors I experienced as a child.

You don't understand. I knew all about salvation in Christ. I had accepted Christ as savior. But again and again the doubts would come that I hadn't done it sincerely or maybe had been missing something. I would repeat in my mind that I was accepting Christ. And again and again I would read things about grace like you suggest. And again and again I would convince myself that, even though I was having many hurtful thoughts and feelings, every one of which made me deserving of eternal torment and fire, that I wasn't really going to get the torment I so completely deserved.

And your solution? You ask me to do exactly what I did, to remind myself and convince myself that even though I was such a horrible person that frequently did things worthy of eternal torment, I will not get what I deserve.

​

Telling me that my impulses make me worthy of eternal torment is not condemnation?

I now have a life free of the torments of my childhood. I now understand that I am the result of a long process of evolution, a process that has bred in me a fight or flight response when I perceive I am attacked. And when that flight or flight response becomes intense, it can produce thoughts and emotions that we identify as anger or hate. Evolution bred that in me. But that is not all evolution bred in me. It also produced emotions of love and compassion and the desire to build deep cooperative relationships with those that reciprocate. And evolution built in me the cognitive resources to sort through the various emotions and thoughts, and establish rational reactions that make for good outcomes in most circumstances.

Evolution also created a consciousness in me, but my consciousness is not really in charge. Rather, my brain is continually responding with a mass of thoughts and emotions, a stream of which filters to the top and becomes my conscious train of thought. And this consciousness, which I call "me", can observe the interacting thoughts and watch them work through my problems.

So rather than condemn myself for having some thoughts that are not the best, I can simply observe the brain--that great brain that evolution has given folks like you and me--and watch it work through the mass of thoughts to chart a good course of action.

I no longer condemn myself for having certain feelings. They happen. I feel them. I work through them. I move on. It is far better then the guilt I felt merely for experiencing the natural workings of the human brain.

​

sir, every sin disqualifies us for heaven. Every single sin. Heaven is a perfect place, therefore if we sin, we are not perfect and cannot be in the presence of God. For one sin you die. For example if you have a beautiful hot air balloon, and someone has one small nail (one sin), it only takes one sin to burst the balloon and cause to to fall to your death. Anger is a sin, so it would disqualify you. However this is not what you are asking. You are asking if a christian who has anger, will disqualify him from heaven. And that is no. Grace covers the christian for when he sins. Repenting of anger cannot save you, neither can committing anger take salvation away. That is the fact of the matter. Grace is not of works, it is of works it is no longer of grace the Bible says. Now granted a christian is saved by grace. If they commit the same sin over and over again, without repenting of it. They become numb to it. And it is at that point, where they no longer struggle with it, that they have accepted it as a good thing, that they are susceptible to deception by the enemy. This normally leads a person to no longer believe in the gospel message and to lose their salvation. God will not force someone to be saved, who does not want to be. But for the person who struggles with the sin, that is a sign of life. For example if you have a corps and you put a 50 pound weight on his chest, he won't do anything. But if you see a person sleeping in bed and you do that same thing, they will instantly wake up, push it off their chest and see what is wrong. A christian has God's spirit inside and because of that they cannot sin it says in 1 John. That means we will no longer be comfortable getting drunk, sleeping with our girlfriend or boyfriend, getting high on weed. Etc. We should not be comfortable. So for the christian who is trying to not be addicted to drugs, they have grace and they have the weight of God's holy spirit convincting them and pressing on them. But the one who is proud of their sin, the drug dealer for example, the pimp, the drug smuggler, the ones who no longer try to repent because they love their sin, and desire for grace to save them anyway. They won't have the grace. It's called "trampling under foot the son of God" Hebrews 10:29. I hope that makes sense. I dont' expect it to make perfect sense to you. This is deep deep theology, and 99% of christians don't understand the intricacies of calvinism/armenianism debates. In fact hebrews mentions in hebrews chapter 6 that one need to fully understand God's grace versus works, before getting into this debate, and I am not sure you fully understand it. IF you don't understand the milk of scripture, you won't understand the meat the Bible says in hebrews.

 

[gaara4158]

time is a physical property, just as three dimensions change the effect of two dimensional universes, and add more options, time does as well. The flat land illustration is basic geometry.

It's definitely not.

 

[createdtoworship]

It's definitely not.

time affects three dimensional space the same manner that 3 dimensions affect two dimensional space. Think of space time, how it warps around black holes. Without mass there is no bending of space time.

 

[Freodin]

sir, every sin disqualifies us for heaven. Every single sin. Heaven is a perfect place, therefore if we sin, we are not perfect and cannot be in the presence of God. For one sin you die.

"Die" in this case of course means: being subjected to an eternal stance in the umost displeasent conditions that an omnipotent being can make up.
If what you wrote there was indeed the reason for this system, almost any other method would be better, more reasonable, more emphatic, more "loving". Eta: No, I have to correct that: EVERY other method would be better.

Can't exist next to "sin"? Hey, then get rid of it. Not keep it around eternally and "punish" babies for all those evil evil sins they committed.

Other than several of the posters here, I have no negative experiences with the doctrine of Hell, or suffered from this idea. I never was a Christian, I never believed in it.
I still don't, in any form. There are some forms of Christianity that I think have good views or good ideas. I might not believe in their theology, but I can accept some of their ideas.

But your version must be the most horrific, most disgusting, most misanthropic, most hateful type of Christianity that I have encountered. Even the Holocaust was more merciful than this idea.

You should be ashamed of yourself to sell this disgusting view as "the religion of love".

 

[gaara4158]

time affects three dimensional space the same manner that 3 dimensions affect two dimensional space. Think of space time, how it warps around black holes. Without mass there is no bending of space time.

I don't know why you keep telling me this. You don't need to make this Hell thing all science-fictiony. Just admit it's God's magic.

 

[createdtoworship]

"Die" in this case of course means: being subjected to an eternal stance in the umost displeasent conditions that an omnipotent being can make up.
If what you wrote there was indeed the reason for this system, almost any other method would be better, more reasonable, more emphatic, more "loving". Eta: No, I have to correct that: EVERY other method would be better.

Can't exist next to "sin"? Hey, then get rid of it. Not keep it around eternally and "punish" babies for all those evil evil sins they committed.

Other than several of the posters here, I have no negative experiences with the doctrine of Hell, or suffered from this idea. I never was a Christian, I never believed in it.
I still don't, in any form. There are some forms of Christianity that I think have good views or good ideas. I might not believe in their theology, but I can accept some of their ideas.

But your version must be the most horrific, most disgusting, most misanthropic, most hateful type of Christianity that I have encountered. Even the Holocaust was more merciful than this idea.

You should be ashamed of yourself to sell this disgusting view as "the religion of love".

thank you. If you have the majority behind you, your are probably on the wrong path. Matthew 7:13-14

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't know why you keep telling me this. You don't need to make this Hell thing all science-fictiony. Just admit it's God's magic.

I get it, you don't like math. My daughter doesn't either.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

thank you. If you have the majority behind you, your are probably on the wrong path. Matthew 7:13-14

Yes, this is a good point for testing many things that are believed or stated anywhere.

 

[mmksparbud]

so then your point is useless, if trinity is not in the Bible. After all you were asking for specific words, and just because they are not there does not mean the concept is not there. Like you said, the concept of "three in one" is found in the Bible, but not trinity. And likewise while your specific word recipe is not found, there is definitely the concept of eternal life for both the wicked and righteous.

if the souls of the wicked were not eternal, why resurrect the body of the wicked?

it would make sense if the soul was just going to die, that the soul would go to the grave, not that the body of the wicked would rise again.

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Acts 24:15b

The concept of the immortal soul is not there. And the soul does go to the grave---it is the breath of God that gives life, when it dies, all of the body dies. For a Christian, death is but a sleep.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[gaara4158]

I get it, you don't like math. My daughter doesn't either.

No, I just don’t like throwing souls into an equation and acting like nothing crazy just happened.