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Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by gradyll, May 9, 2019.

do you believe in a literal eternal hell fire?

This poll will close on Jun 23, 2019 at 6:19 PM.
  1. no hell does not exist

  2. no it just means death

  3. it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire

  4. it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I was asked to move this thread, so that atheists could reply so here it is:

    Some people can makes sense of annihilation. But when it comes to hell fire, and reading the sheer number of verses in the Gospels (by Christ himself) about "where the worm never dies, and the smoke of their torment." It can be alot to take in initially. I sympathize with that viewpoint. But as we show here, it would be the wrong viewpoint.

    I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.

    see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.

    but my logical case for eternal hell is not based on one sin. My logical case for eternal hell is that God, who can read our thoughts and minds, and also who is perfect, can read our wickedness, and cannot forget every detail of every sin, so in an average lifetime, that is thirty thousand sins for an extremely moral person who only sins once a day. IF you do the math, 365 times eighty years, is a little under thirty thousand sins. So God is reminded of thirty thousand times you were angry, hated, lusted, looked at porn, masturbated, stole from work, cheated on taxes, etc, etc. And when you look at the holiness of God, every time you are angry that is like murder, and every time you lusted after someone on the internet, that was like adultery and fornication. So at the end of the day, thirty thousand mortal sins creates a situation where a physical prison does not meet up with the amount of sin. If a murderer is killed for one act of committing a serial murder (under capital punishment laws,) then thirty thousand angry thoughts, of murder is not paid for by a single death. It must be paid for by eternal misery.

    I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful. But I noticed one thing, I was angry at God the next day. My heart was hard like a rock! I realized this because just a day earlier, my heart was pliable and soft the day before (compassionate). At least for me it was. I can always do better though. But I noticed one sin, made my heart angry at God. Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins. How angry would you be at God? Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition. Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much. So God gives them what they want. But it is when they actually feel the heat, like lazerus... that they start being sorry. But then it's too late. Now I used to teach that the Bible taught eternal torment, not eternal torture. But that is just semantics. Those words are synonymous. One sounds better yes. But if the Bible was written in modern terms, I don't see a single problem with it mentioning torture. Because of the above information. It changes your perspective doesn't it? (I apologize already for the length of this first post) please bear with me.


    (this is part one, the logical reason for eternal hell)
    Part two and three are the Biblical reasons for Hell.

    "SINCE THE BIBLE IS A HIGHLY SYMBOLIC BOOK, HOW CAN WE BE SURE THAT HELL IS A LITERAL PLACE?"

    The premise that the Bible is a symbolic book, much less a “highly” symbolic one, is a false premise. Yes, the Bible offers some symbolism, as do most writings of men, but Satan has deceived people into over-emphasizing Biblical symbolism. Most of the Bible deals with history—the history of man’s relationship to his Creator. Within that recorded history one can learn of many things about God and His plan. As He reveals these things to us, He sometimes uses symbolism, but this doesn’t make the Bible a symbolic book. It is simply a book that contains some symbolism.

    In November, 1993, evangelist Billy Graham told Time magazine that he didn’t believe in a literal burning hell. He said that the Biblical hell was “possibly an illustration of how terrible it’s going to be—not fire, but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched.” Graham had no Scriptural authority for making such an assumption. A preacher’s duty is to preach all the counsel of God (Acts 20:27), not speculate about things that might “possibly” be an “illustration.” To make matters worse, Graham “air conditioned” hell by describing it as merely a “thirst for God,” something that wouldn’t move any sinner to repentance. Why didn’t Jesus describe hell this way, rather than leaving its occupants smoking with fire and brimstone? Graham’s symbolism is unscriptural symbolism, as is that of many other preachers.

    When the Bible uses symbolism, it is quite obvious. Jesus once said, “I am the door.” (John 10:9) That statement cannot possibly be taken literally, so it must be taken as symbolism. He also said, “I am the good shepherd.” (John 10:14) Jesus wasn’t literally a shepherd, His followers aren’t literally sheep, and literal wolves (John 10:12) are not a threat to Christians. Those are symbolic terms because they can’t be literal.

    Hell, on the other hand, can be literal. Is it possible that a Christian can be a sheep with four legs in a pasture? No, that’s not possible. Is it possible that a literal lake of fire can exist somewhere? Yes, just open any standard text book on physical science, and you can see a lake of fire. For that matter, just run an Internet search on “earth’s core,” and you’ll see plenty.

    The term “hell” occurs 54 times in the Bible, and never once is it impossible for the word to be taken literally. Every time hell fire is mentioned in the new testament or old, the literal greek or hebrew word is literal fire. Take the first occurrence, for instance, which is Deuteronomy 32:22: “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.” To say that “hell” in this verse is symbolic would demand further comment regarding the earth and the mountains. Are they symbolic as well? “Maybe they are,” one might suggest. Well, if they too are symbolic, then convenient symbolism becomes the standard by which men read and understand the Bible. If that’s the case, then why bother reading it at all? Everything in the Bible could mean anything, and no one would know anything for certain. There must be a safe standard by which we can distinguish symbolism from literal application. The safest standard is the possibility standard: if it’s possible that a given passage can be literal, then it is literal. If it’s impossible, then it’s symbolic (“I am the door,” etc.) Anyone who seeks a lesser standard is not a Bible believer and is not worthy of your attention.

    (part three is a section answering some critics of eternal hell)


    Is Hell Forever? (definition of aion, aionion)

    Universalists and Jehovah's witnesses state that Hell is not eternal because aion means age not forever. Many state that because Aion can mean temporary period of time in greek and not forever that aion ALWAYS means temporary! Wrong! . That is the fallacy of committing illegitimate totality transfer. Just because aion means temporal in one instance does not mean it means that in every instance.


    if aion universally means temporary then matthew 25:46 states that eternal life is only temporary because it's the same word for both.


    Secondly,

    "just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:

    who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)"- Matt Slick at Carm.com


    If and only If aion means temporary there would be aspects of God that would be temporary because the same greek word is used for God (aion)




    1. The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)
    2. The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)
    3. God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
    4. God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)
    5. God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)
    6. God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)
    7. God is not immortal, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)
    8. God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

    ABOVE SECTION BY DON HEWEY OF Temporarily Disabled


    DEFINITION OF "aionion" IN OUR VIEW OF HELL


    BELOW SECTION BY Matt Slick of carm.org


    Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.


    To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is greek aionion"aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.


    The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.


    With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.


    This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:


    who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)


    The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.

    How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?


    The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.


    John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

    John 10:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

    Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."

    Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."

    Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."

    Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."

    1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."

    1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"

    1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."


    The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.


    Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.

    Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

    Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."

    Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."

    Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.

    Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."

    2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

    Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."


    It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019 at 7:01 PM
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  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I have been active at this forum for about 2 decades. I realized early on that the same arguments, proof texts, and invalid "sources" turn up over and over and over. So I started saving my replies. One of the frequent fliers is "aion/aionios do not mean eternity/eternal" they mean various things but not eternal. I decided to review every occurrence of these words in the NT.
    In twenty one [21] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.

    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [3]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only ages long which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …

    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [10]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [12]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
    [13]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [14]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [16]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[ εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [18]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [19]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [20]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [21]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [22]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.



     
  3. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

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    No I wouldn't. You are never going to convince me that there is such a thing as thoughtcrime, or that it is worthy of eternal torture.

    Ok, let's do some math.

    A punishment is just if it fits the crime. As such, eternal torture would require an infinite amount of sin for it to be justified.

    Which is completely impossible. It doesn't matter how many sins you try to 'do the math' on. Suppose it's ten thousand a day. Suppose it's a billion. Suppose it's nine hundred octillion. It's all an infinitesimal speck of nothing compared to infinity.

    So, no. It's not justified. Nor can it possibly be justified. I'm sure glad that's not my problem.
     
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  4. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    You will actually get conflicting answers from theists on this belief. As a matter of fact, I'm speaking to @Tone at present, in the topic God is Good (post #30). He would seem to disagree with you.

    Since the Bible IS truth, the answer should be quite simple. So, is hell eternal, or finite?

    I would like to see you two engage, to 'square' the details. Because as far as I'm concerned, it would appear God is 'the author of confusion'.
     
  5. Skreeper

    Skreeper The handsome rogue

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    I'm sorry but anyone who actually believes that eternal torture in hell fire is justified is on the same level as ISIS.

    And anyone who teaches this to children should be charged with child abuse.
     
  6. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    Eternity does funny things. Any number you can name for the amount of lashes you think the worst sinner deserves, infinity dwarfs it. Infinity dwarfs its double. No matter how justified your initial time in Hell might be (which it isn’t, but that’s a separate angle) that time will eventually expire, and then any additional time you serve (which will also be an eternity) is completely unjustified.
     
  7. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I believe the OP addresses most of these posts, granted it was a long OP. So I will just post the first section:

    reading the sheer number of verses in the Gospels (by Christ himself) about "where the worm never dies, and the smoke of their torment." It can be alot to take in initially. I sympathize with that viewpoint. But as we show here, it would be the wrong viewpoint.

    I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.

    see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.

    See if we sinned just once a day. And we know we sin probably hundreds. But lets do the math on one sin alone. That is 365 sins a year. Before your are even a teenager you have committed 3,650 sins. In an average 80 year life span you have committed nearly 30,000 sins. Now that's all fine and dandy because we forget about what we had for lunch yesterday. But imagine being a superiour being, and being constantly reminded not just of yesterdays sins, but of sins you did when you were a baby. (because God is omniscient, and knows everything). That is being constantly reminded of 30,000 sins all at once. Just for one person, for 1 sin a day. I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful. But I noticed one thing, I was angry at God the next day. My heart was hard like a rock! I realized this because just a day earlier, my heart was pliable and soft the day before (compassionate). At least for me it was. I can always do better though. But I noticed one sin, made my heart angry at God. Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins. How angry would you be at God? Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition. Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much. So God gives them what they want. But it is when they actually feel the heat, like lazerus... that they start being sorry. But then it's too late. Now I used to teach that the Bible taught eternal torment, not eternal torture. But that is just semantics. Those words are synonymous. One sounds better yes. But if the Bible was written in modern terms, I don't see a single problem with it mentioning torture. Because of the above information. It changes your perspective doesn't it?

    remember to God, looking at a woman in lust is adultery, and hating a man is murder.

    so if you were given a life time sentence for murder every time you had an angry thought, this would start to approach How holy God is.

    It's not that the punishment is horrible, (and it is), it's that God is that Holy.

    remember in the old testament simply touching the arc of the covenant meant certain death, and opening it, killed an entire enemy army. Now you are starting to see what I mean by, it's not really about eternal hell at all. It's about How eternally Holy God is.
     
  8. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

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    If the punishment is infinite, then the crime would also have to be infinite for it to be justified. That's what 'justified' means, in regard to this subject - proportional to the crime.

    It is not possible to commit infinite crimes in a finite lifetime.

    So your feeling on this matter is wrong. Definitionally, logically, absolutely wrong.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  9. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I guess you would have to prove crimes committed with a soul controlled body are in fact finite. As I have shown before, souls are mass-less and thus are outside of time all together, as general relativity dictates that time accelerates mass. So a sin, if controlled and commanded by a timeless soul, is an eternal crime.
     
  10. cloudyday2

    cloudyday2 Generic Theist Supporter

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    There are other reasons for inflicting a punishment ( Punishment - Wikipedia ):
    - deterrence (the THREAT of eternal hell might be justified and in fact God doesn't need to actually apply the sentence as long as some people BELIEVE God will apply the sentence - sort of like mutually assured destruction in nuclear strategy)
    - rehabilitation (nope)
    - incapacitation and societal protection (hell might be justified in the Eastern Orthodox view where it is distance from God in the afterlife and only tortuous due to the absence of bliss and only eternal due to the ever increasing difficulty for people to reverse their course and embrace God as time goes on)
    - retribution (nope)
    - restoration (nope)
    - education and denunciation (nope)

    Of course I don't believe in hell, but I suppose we could imagine some far-out justifications for it.
     
  11. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

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    The soul doesn't help your equation. Life is finite, and that is what we are purportedly judged on.

    So, no. You are tasked with proving an equivalence between finite and infinite. Good luck with that.
     
  12. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    If souls do not experience time, how do they experience anything? To perceive one event after another is to perceive time, and if a soul isn’t perceiving time, how are they perceiving one event after another?
     
  13. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I guess I believe something called annihilation, in the lake of fire the body and soul are both destroyed completely. This is almost defensible Biblically, with one passage I can't seem to find a satisfactory work around for. Yes people suffer in hell and there is a terrible moment when the children of perdition enter the fire, agony beyond belief. It's just that over time I've come to realize the lake of fire is final and there is no reason for consciousness to continue. I've come to accept this concept, yet I do not hold to it dogmatically.
     
  14. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    I just did that. The soul is infinite because it is in a timelessness.
     
  15. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    probably because they are limited to a physical body, and have been designed for this body type. When we are glorified to a timelessness, they most likely will be reprogrammed to a timeless body.
     
  16. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    But that doesn’t answer my question. If you’re timeless, you don’t experience time, correct? But if you don’t experience time, that means you’re not experiencing anything. So how are they experiencing anything without experiencing time?
     
  17. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    why on earth do you think you only experience things in a time domain. Without time you have less restriction, not more. Again I recommend you watch the flat lander cartoon, once again to learn about how a higher dimensional being supercedes lower dimensionality.

    the video also explains scientifically how Jesus was able to prophecy of future events, as well as appear inside of locked rooms, in the upper room for example.
     
  18. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    Without time you have no change. Change necessarily takes time. Without change how can you have any experience at all?

    Why are you talking about hypothetical dimensions? We’re talking about souls and how they’re able to experience anything at all. Unless you’re just invoking magic?
     
  19. gradyll

    gradyll logical debater- for better or for worse

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    so you didn't watch the researched video I provided. Thats ok. Basically it says If you are in a three dimensional universe, you are a flat lander. But a being in a fourth dimension, can pop in out of no where, violating the principles of a two dimensional universe, that being would be like a God to them. So too a being in a fifth dimensional universe or higher can see the past and the future all at once. They can still move around in that dimension, but it takes no time to do so, because like the other, they supercede all natural law of the dimensions below it.

    that is like the doubt of the flatlander, watch the video. The flatlander was scared of a 3D object penetrating it's universe at any moment, behind locked doors. And it would do so completely scientifically. Scientifically for a four dimensional universe that is. But someone in a higher realm, does not need to be limited by XY and Z, or T, (time). They can penetrate the universe at any time period, move around, see things in the future, as well as in the past, like they are present. That is how I conceive being timeless, it's probably wrong, I admit. But I don't see a limitation that you see, it does not take time to change state. You would have to prove that aspect.
     
  20. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    I know about all that. How is it relevant?

    Time is literally the unit by which we measure change. Without time there is no change, and without change there is no time. So yes, your conception of timelessness is wrong, and I appreciate your honesty in admitting your uncertainty. Theoretical higher dimensions are fun to think about, but using them to justify wild assertions about timeless souls and the like isn’t any better than appealing to magic. Until you can demonstrate that such dimensions exist and work the way you say, you’re just making things up.
     
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