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Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by gradyll, May 9, 2019.

  1. no hell does not exist

  2. no it just means death

  3. it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire

  4. it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

  1. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

    United States
    Just because they are eternal at the moment of creation does not mean that they are given heaven by default, (paradise, and abrahams bosom). Besides Hell is considered eternal death. But if eternal death meant the grave, why not just say the grave? Why use eternal in it? We all know that death is permanent, that adds no new information, it's extra wordage. I don't believe the Bible uses extra wordage for any reason. Hell is eternal, and it specifies eternal in the same way it specifies eternal life in heaven.
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    Many modern Jews claim to not believe in hell but as I have shown, before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in hell and the teaching of Jesus did not contradict the teaching of the Jews.
  3. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

    United States
    That’s interesting. Well, I’ve got no dog in that fight but it might be interesting to see you debate that with a modern Jew. Being raised SDA I was always taught a different interpretation of those verses, but as a nontheist I’m not interested in debating it myself anymore.
  4. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

    United States
    He is correct, I have an post I will post here later, showing a jewish version of hell, very similar.
  5. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter


    Once again I am asking, "Do you or do you not believe that if a person experiences an angry thought towards another person, that this one thought causes him to deserve eternal fire in hell?" Please answer.

    No sir, that is not what I am asking.

    Once again I am asking, "Do you or do you not believe that if a person experiences an angry thought towards another person, that this one thought causes him to deserve eternal fire in hell?" Please answer.
    How can a person possibly deserve hell because an angry thought comes into his mind? Thoughts are something that happen to us. They are the result of massive parallel processing in the brain that causes thoughts to happen, some of which rise to the forefront in what we call consciousness. But the consciousness has no direct control over what thoughts get presented to it. These thoughts just happen.

    So how can anybody say my conscious self is deserving of eternal hell for the thoughts that my mental processing cause to happen in my mind. That makes no sense to me.
  6. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

    United States
    sir it depends.

    if they are christian, then no.

    if they are not christian they yes.

    that one sin will disqualify an unregenerate person.

    but to the person who is saved, grace covers that sin.

    I hope that answers your question.

    a sin of the heart is still a sin, if you look at lust at a woman, you have done nothing wrong externally, granted you only looked briefly. But this is a heart sin, a sin of the mind. Anger is another sin of the mind, lust for material things is another sin of the mind, envy, or vengeful attitudes, are all sins of the mind, any sin can disqualify an unregenerate person. Just as a balloon is popped from one needle, so to for one sin we die.

    but my logical case for eternal hell is not based on one sin. My logical case for eternal hell is that God, who can read our thoughts and minds, and also who is perfect, can read our wickedness, and cannot forget every detail of every sin, so in an average lifetime, that is thirty thousand sins for an extremely moral person who only sins once a day. IF you do the math, 365 times eighty years, is a little under thirty thousand sins. So God is reminded of thirty thousand times you were angry, hated, lusted, looked at porn, masterbated, stole from work, cheated on taxes, etc, etc. And when you look at the holiness of God, every time you are angry that is like murder, and every time you lusted after someone on the internet, that was like adultery and fornication. So at the end of the day, thirty thousand mortal sins creates a situation where a physical prison does not meet up with the amount of sin. If a murderer is killed for one act of seriel murders under capital punishment laws, then thirty thousand angry thoughts, of murder is not paid for by a single death. It must be paid for by eternal misery.
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    <MM>You can read every single word of the bible 100 times over and not once will you find the words "immortal soul" in it. It is not in it. It is a concept that derived from Greek philosophy, never from Christianity. God did not tell Adam and if that if they ate of the tree their souls would burn in hell forever. He plainly said they would die. Not one word about souls there at all. And please don't tell me that He meant their souls---either way---they would die not burn forever!! If you want to consider that God was telling a half truth, you have a warped sense of God! He doesn't lie, He dioesn't tell 1/2 truths. The unrepentant sinner will pay in the lake of fire according to their works---not forever.
    One has to take into account how the word forever is used. I've said, and so has everyone else, that waiting on the phone for these machines to answer can take "forever"---well, it doesn't. Jonah was not in the belly of that whale forever, he just felt like it had been. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire---it is not still burning---they are however, still dead! The price of sin is death, that means at their appoointed time in the lake of fire, they will be dead forever.
    The concept that babies and those that do not understand sin will burn forever is not of God. God is love, God is justice. He can not go against His charcter.
    God states He will destroy sin, "Sin will not rise a second time." As long as there are sinners burning, there is sin. God remakes the earth anew---there will be no more tears, no more pain---as long as there is a burning hell there are tears and pain. Hell, and death will all be destroyed--permanently, forever. Not that the burning goes on forever.<MM>

    We don't get to decide what is/not just for God. His thoughts are higher than ours. Some folks might think that it was to harsh, unjust etc. when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities of the plain with fire men, women, old, young, infants.
    .....Yes Sodom and Gomorrah were burned by eternal fire.

    Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    The adjective "eternal" only modifies "fire" it does not modify "suffering" or "vengeance."
    That God did not tell Adam and Eve they would be punished forever and ever is a logical fallacy, argument from silence. Just because God didn't say it doesn't mean He can't or won't do it. God didn't say He was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah with fire before He did it, but that didn't stop Him from doing it.
    While the Bible does not specifically say that the soul is immortal there are three passages of scripture which depicts the unrighteous having some kind of conscious awareness after death.
    …..In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

    Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    . . .
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
    …..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
    …..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

    …..The jews considered this passage to be factual.

    Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
    “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
    GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
    Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
    Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Eze 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
    Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
    Luk 16:22-28
    (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

  8. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    United States
    And? It is still said to be eternal fire---it is still not burning.

    Then God would be guilty of going against His character by withholding the truth from Adam and Eve---God doesn't lie and He doesn't tell 1/2 truths.
    But God did say He would destroy Sodom and Gomorrah---Abraham had Him down to if there were 10 righteous persons then He would not destroy it---there weren't--He destroyed it.

    If it doesn't say so, then it isn't.

    Job 14:10-12
    "But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
    Job 7:21 "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."
    Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    Parables -- the parable of the sower is not about farming, Lazarus is not about the state of the dead---that is one huge bosom, no drop of water is going to help, it was directed at the Pharisees
    Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

    He spoke of marriage also and then Lazarus--he was speaking of their unbelief.
    Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    United States
    The fire was burning before God sent it down from heaven. You don't know if it is still burning the or not.
    Where does it say that God has to tell people what He is going to do before He does it? He didn't tell Sodom and Gomorrah what He was going to do. All the cities God told the Israelites to destroy He didn't tell them before hand.

    So you blow off the three passages I quoted with 8 words without addressing them
    Please explain to me how, if at all, this addresses the three passages I quoted?

    This is a favorite passage for people to quote out-of-context trying to disprove vss. like Matt 25:46.

    This same writer said in Ecc 3 that he did not know whether the soul of a man went up or down when he died.

    Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
    .....The phrase "under the sun" occurs 29 times in the book of Ecclessiastes. 6 times in chapter 9.
    Ecc_9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
    Ecc_9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
    Ecc_9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
    Ecc_9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
    Ecc_9:13 This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me:
    If we assume that vs. 5 refers to man's eternal fate then we must assume that even the righteous have no more reward after they die.
    Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; [under the sun] for the memory of them is forgotten.[under the sun]
    The writer of Ecclesiastes is not talking about man's eternal fate but what happens in this world, under the sun.
    If Jesus had been talking specifically to the Pharisees of course they heard what Jesus said. Why did Luke say they also heard? Jesus was not speaking to the Pharisees they overheard what Jesus said to His disciples "And the Pharisees ... heard also."

    Of course a drop of water is not going to help. Do you expect someone who is tormented in flames to be rational or logical?
    And FYI the "bosom of Abraham" is not a place it is a position, to the right or actually in front of the host. They didn't sit down at a table as we do but reclined on their left elbow with their feet pointing away from the table. That is how the woman was able wash Jesus' feet with her tears. Women didn't crawl around under a table of strange men. Also that is how John was able to lay his head on Jesus' bosum. In order to look Jesus in the face he would lay his head on Jesus' bosum.
    All of the ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.

    • Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
    Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
    1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
    ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    • Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
    On the Resurrection.
    This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
    • Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
    In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
    • Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
    9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
    • The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
    Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
    • Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
    But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
  10. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    United States
    Tell you what---you go anywhere over there in the middle east and if you find a fire that has been burning for a few 1000 years---then you'll have your eternal fire. Unless you do---it's very apparent it is not burning to everyone but you.

    Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
    God doesn't lie or tell 1/2 truths---If Adam and Eve were going to burn forever, that is what He would have told them. God said if they ate of it they would die. If God had not told them, they would have ate of it without knowing what would happen to them and it would not have been a sin. God wanted them to know what would happen----which was to die, not burn in hell forever.

    I hold no place for those people you quoted---sorry. They are not cannon. It doesn't matter to me what they believe. You can believe whomeverr you want, I go by the bible.
    A nd that is exactly the point--the dead know not anything. Lost or saved--until the resurrection.
    If you want to believe that Lazarus was a depiction of the state of the dead, go right ahead. I'll take whast Jesus said about it,
    Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Though---even if someone rose from the dead. Not that they do. IKt is about unbelief--that is what Jesus said and I believe Him.
  11. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

    United States
    your post on sodom reminded me of a small post I created about three evidences for eternal hell:

    1. Matthew 25:46

      "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

      Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.

      Annihilationists are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.
    2. secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked. Again annihilationists are stuck to believe that the duration is relative to whom it is given.
    3. thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.

      Revelation 14:11

      "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

      that verse proves that whoever worships the beast or his image or receives the mark will have the same destination as the beast and the false prophet.

      Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

      Now we need to know how long the beast and the false prophet and those who worship the beast are in hell, do they self destruct after so long or are they in there for eternity like it says?

      Now remember what it says in revelation 20, satan is bound after this for a 1000 years. Revelation 20:1-3, and simultaneously the saints reign with Christ for 1000 years verses 4-6. Then after that satan is released to tempt those who were born in the millenium (verse 7-9), that never knew what temptation was and free will to sin due to Jesus ruling and "reigning with an iron rod" as the Bible says. Some will rebel at this time, and join satan, then after this happens the rebellion is crushed by God verse 9, and then what I want you to see here is this. Remember the beast and the false prophet, throne in the fire, before this thousand years? Well Satan is thrown in there, and they are still there! Read this verse...

      Rev 20:10

      "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

      notice it states that they currently ARE there in revelation 20:10, placed in prior to the millenium, and still there 1000 years later!

      This not part of the three arguments for eternal hell, but it is a separate argument that likens the fire from Sodom and Gomorrah to literal hell.

      Luke 17:29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

      Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

      Are you suggesting they are right now suffering in eternal fire? Or that the fire destroyed them for eternity?

      2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

      Or are you suggesting God did not put them in chains of dense darkness, but is instead punishing them before judgment has been passed?

      Chains of darkness - death - to there await the resurrection and judgement.

      Because "hell" the grave - is likened to sleep, where there exists no knowledge - no anything.

      Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, for in Sheol, where you are going, there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.

      Hebrew Sheol, Greek Gehenna.

      SHEOL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

      So as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah who instead of being hurled into the lake of fire - had the lake of fire hurled onto them. And will never exist for eternity. The punishment is everlasting and the punishment is eternal death, the opposite of eternal life. And since no resurrection will be possible, it will be an eternal punishment. They will indeep weep and gnash their teeth for however long their mortal bodies can survive - as those at Sodom and Gomorrah wept and gnashed their teeth before being destroyed.

      no, when Revelation 20:10 happens, they will be there, hence the "are" in verse 10. And as I said before, they were placed in before the tribulation, and there 1000 years later, still. Burning.

      In in conclusion: here is one more verse:

      Mark 14:21

      but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.

      this verse should be confusing to an annihilationist, as if someone dies, it's not anything more than turning someone's soul off for eternity. Judas hung himself, and died. Very little pain involved. So why would Jesus say that it would be good for that man if he was never born?

      I await your responses.
  12. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

    United States
    annihilation does not seem to take account of the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" For when we annihilate there is no more pain right? Wrong!

    I believe the Bible states that there is a hybrid type of fire that burns flesh and spirit, but not consuming them. Many many verses talk about "weeping and gnashing of teeth", "smoke of their torment", and other things that really can only be accomplished with some type of fire. If weeping and gnashing of teeth was not real, why repeat himself 7 times for something that was just metaphorical?

    1. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:11-12).

    2. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42).

    3. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:49-50).

    4. And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 22:12-13).

    5. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 24:50-51).

    6. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:29-30).

    7. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out (Luke 13:27-28).

    Lastly: This verse: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" Matthew 10:28 For this to be true Hell must be worse than the worst torment on earth.
  13. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

    United States
    I agree with Der Alter, Dante got his views of hell from ancient jewish views of hell here is quotes from jewish sources:

    Simcha Paull Raphael is adjunct assistant professor in Jewish Studies at Temple University, is a spiritual director at Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, Rabbinic Pastor, ordination by Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, Adjunct Faculty, Department of Religion, La Salle University, Philadelphia, Pa., Spiritual Director (1999-2009, Ph.D., Psych, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, Ca.

    and he states that gehennah was in fact more than simply a garbage dump, (which actually is inaccurate to say the least- as there is no evidence of garbage in the valley of hinnom) anyways...

    according to jewish tradition there were seven levels/names of gehennah, and one of them was sheol. Anyway here is an excerpt of it while he quotes from the traditional texts of the apocrypha to gain context and bearings of this tradition:

    " Sheol as a Realm of Torturous Punishment

    Associated with Sheol in this period of Jewish history are very strong, harsh images of punishment, affliction, and torment. Sheol never appears as a desirable place to be; it is usually rather dreadful. In the texts of the Apocrypha, we find a proliferation of depictions of torture, punishment, darkness, fire, burning, and so on. The Book of Enoch, interestingly enough, is a precursor to an entire genre of literature—referred to as “Tours of Hell”32—that describes with vivid detail the torments and punishments of the underworlds. In the “tour of hell” given to our antediluvian hero of 1 Enoch, Sheol is unequivocally a realm of postmortem punishment, and it is described with far more imaginative detail than anything we have observed thus far in Jewish afterlife literature.

    First Enoch 54, for example, describes how on “the great day of judgment” even lofty rulers will be subjected to burning fire, imprisonment chains, and iron fetters of immense weight before finally being cast into the abyss of complete condemnation (1 Enoch 54:1-6).

    Elsewhere we encounter a similar negative fate ascribed to those souls condemned to Sheol: “Woe unto you sinners who are dead! ... You yourselves know that they will bring your souls down to Sheol; and they shall experience evil and great tribulation—in darkness, nets and burning flame” (1 Enoch 103:7).

    Other Images of Gehenna/Sheol

    While there is a diverse collection of horrific images associated with Sheol at this point, we do not yet see any comprehensive structural pattern in place. The well-developed “Tour of Hell” motif, which comes into place somewhat later, is in a nascent state at this time. However, to understand the historical evolution of afterlife teachings, it is useful to observe and to catalog recurring motifs and themes of postmortem torment in this period which bridges biblical and rabbinic Judaism. Thus, the following passages from 1 Enoch illustrate the landscape of the underworld in the apocryphal era.

    Fire and Burning

    In numerous places Gehenna is described as an “abyss... full of fire (1 Enoch 90:26ff.) or a place where there is “a burning worse than fire” (1 Enoch 100:9).

    We find more of these images of fire and burning in a section of 1 Enoch (chapters 91-104) dating from the early first century C.E.,33 which speaks of Sheol/Gehenna as follows:

    Therefore they shall be wanting in doctrine and wisdom, And they shall perish thereby together with their possessions. And with all their glory and their splendour, and in shame and in slaughter and in great destitution, their spirits shall be cast into the furnace of fire. (1 Enoch 98:3)

    In a similar vein, 1 Enoch 90 describes how the fallen angels and shepherds are subjected to judgment and condemnation to burning by fire:

    And behold, they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. And the judgment was held... and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, full of pillars of fire. And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into that fiery abyss. And I saw at that time how a like fire of abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and they were judged and found guilty and cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned.... (1 Enoch 90:23-26)"

    above from:

    Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife (p. 43). Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.

    now, granted sheol, gehennah was only a prison for 12 months according to jewish tradition, some people got eternal hell:

    "However, rabbinic literature does assert that certain classes of sinners are eternally condemned to Gehenna. In particular, heretics, informers, and scoffers (Hebrew: epikorsim), as well as people who have rejected the words of Torah and denied the belief in the resurrection, are sentenced to Gehenna “for all generations” (Rosh Ha-Shanah 17a). Another tradition maintains that only “one who commits adultery with a married woman, publicly shames his neighbor, or fastens an evil epithet upon his neighbor” descends to Gehenna and never reascends (Baba Metzia 58b)."

    above from:

    Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.

    THE JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA acknowledges the 12 month max but at the same time also talks of eternal gehenna for heretics, adulterers etc:

    "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

    …The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

    Above from : GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    so it was this context of rabbinical settings that Jesus came and said, "hey you know gehennah? The one the scribes talk about? It is that place that even liars will go to, and it's duration will be forever! NOTE: I don't take the rabinnical view that Hell is torture, I take it literally as the KJV states - torment (more on that difference later)
  14. Skreeper

    Skreeper Member of the 'sexual deviancy club'

    I so sorry that you were indoctrinated into this vile belief system. I hope that someday you will get rid of it.

    And I hope that you don't teach children this horrible theology.

    You are basically advocating for the punishment of thought crimes. I am at a loss for words...
  15. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    Just stumbled over this little piece of "Holy Scripture":
    1 Cor 13:4-8 (partial)
    "Love [...] keeps no record of wrongs."

    Compare that with the love of a God who remembers every tiny little "sin" that you ever commited, and deliberately ensures that you will suffer eternally because of it.
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    United States
    Not every Christian believes in this vile concept. It speaks more about the individual who holds such a view than about God. They must have been horrible hurt by someone to want to have anyone tormented forever. When God forgives, He forgives and forgets, He does not remember you sin and you stand before Him as though you had not sinned. There is a burning hell for those that refuse Him but it is not forever, they must pay for their transgressions. They have it backwards actually---it's that those who rejected God's mercy asre not covered by the blood of Jesus, they are unprotected from the burning presence of the Lord.
    Exo_19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
    Exo_24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
    Num 11:1 And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
    Num_16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
    Deu_4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

    Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
    Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

    It is the righteous that live with everlasing burnings---they are protected from His flames---the wicked are not. Only the saved have eternal life.
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  17. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    And I am sure you will rejoice in the knowledge that I find your version (which isn't in any way more objective or correct than any others) somewhat less disgusting.

    Still, I am astonished by the ideas that Christians can sell as "love".
  18. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    United States
    I accidently hit reply before I was finished--reread my post, please. I am messing things up! Click to expand on the rest--I took benedryl for allergic reaction and am falling asleep as I type!!! Goodnight!
  19. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    Get a good night's sleep and hopefully be better when you wake.

    Now regarding your post: I can understand that you believe that, and that you base that belief in what others believed and wrote about.

    But personally, I find this version of "justice" that you promote here almost as disgusting as the eternal torture dogma. Not quite, but almost.
    It is so petty, small-minded, limited and useless. Very human... in the worst sense of that concept.

    I have no interest in convincing you of that. I am just expressing my utter astonishment of the many ways people try to sell their ideas without a shread of regard as to how these ideas appear to those who have not already bought it.
  20. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

    United States
    I am reminded of a person who has a DUI and kills an innocent pedestrian crossing the road. The police watching the whole thing, pull the car over (hit and run), and said, "did you see you just ran over someone?" They administer a blood alcohol test, and the driver fails. the driver says, no I don't believe in DUI's. I just drink alcohol, but I don't take responsibility, I refuse to believe I am in error, you can't prove that everyone drinking alcohol should go to prison. They arrest the person and sentence them to five years in prison. At the court trial, the prisoner says: I don't believe in the Judge, nor do I believe in prison. You can't prove that alcohol is evil. Prove it! And as he yells his insults at the jury and judge, they unanimously vote that he is guilty because of the eye witness of the officers. And he is sent to a prison he didn't believe in, from a judge he didn't believe in, and because of a sin, he didn't believe in. Thus will be your judgement. The judgement comes regardless if you believe in the judge, or the crime.

    I am reminded of this:


    just because a baby covers his face and refuses to see the parents, does not mean the parents aren't coming.
    Last edited: May 16, 2019