Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

[createdtoworship]

I know about all that. How is it relevant?


Time is literally the unit by which we measure change. Without time there is no change, and without change there is no time. So yes, your conception of timelessness is wrong, and I appreciate your honesty in admitting your uncertainty. Theoretical higher dimensions are fun to think about, but using them to justify wild assertions about timeless souls and the like isn’t any better than appealing to magic. Until you can demonstrate that such dimensions exist and work the way you say, you’re just making things up.

yes time is a unit by which we measure change in our laws of physics for 3 dimensional beings. Laws of physics like I said, change for every dimension. So someone who supercedes our three dimensional laws of physics, is not necessarily bound. For example in the case of the flat lander, living on a piece of paper, you can put a pencil in the middle of a room, where it is locked for a two dimensional being, but not for a three dimensional being. The laws of physics apply to three dimensional beings. Not souls.

 

[gaara4158]

yes time is a unit by which we measure change in our laws of physics for 3 dimensional beings. Laws of physics like I said, change for every dimension. So someone who supercedes our three dimensional laws of physics, is not necessarily bound. For example in the case of the flat lander, living on a piece of paper, you can put a pencil in the middle of a room, where it is locked for a two dimensional being, but not for a three dimensional being. The laws of physics apply to three dimensional beings. Not souls.

You’d have to demonstrate that, not just post thought experiments about higher dimensions.

 

[createdtoworship]

You’d have to demonstrate that, not just post thought experiments about higher dimensions.

http://pubs.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/BASIS/pcandid/www/engpub/DDW?W=SYSNUM=525204

that is the peer review behind the flatlander theory, I suppose that is what you wanted. I cannot demonstrate proof of a higher dimension, we can only theorize. But my theory is no worse than your theory about the same material.

 

[doubtingmerle]

so if you were given a life time sentence for murder every time you had an angry thought, this would start to approach How holy God is.

This brings back horrors of my childhood christian experience. I was taught exactly this. And though I was expecting salvation in Christ, I had torments that every day I was still experiencing thoughts of anger. If each of these thoughts made me deserving of eternal torment, what a horrible person I must be! And so I spent every day trying to keep from thinking angry thoughts, and always losing the mental struggle.

It is not wrong to have an angry thought. It is human. Years of evolution have conditioned us to feel this way when we perceive we are attacked. It is far better to feel the feelings that come, without guilt, and then rationally respond in a respectful manner.

 

[Freodin]

The idea that some people indeed try to sell this protection racket as "love" is astonishing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.

No, I wouldn't. I can't imagine why I would.

I'm not saying that I approve of such acts, since I value excellence of character. However, I don't see such imperfections as justifications for punishment. Yes, in the case of murder, rape, kidnapping, torture, etc, I can see some justification for sending someone to prison for a finite time in order to protect innocents and to show the criminals that their bad character won't be tolerated. That may give them a chance to "turn over a new leaf" and work on themselves. I recommend that they take up meditation, or philosophical reflection, or learning productive skills and taking pride in newfound virtues.

However, infinite punishments for finite crimes is ridiculously over-the-top, and is not justice at all. It is tyranny. That is especially true if you are just punishing someone for just getting irritated with others now and then ("angry words"). Yes, a peaceful mind is preferable to an angry mind, but that's no reason to see putting someone in hell as an act of justice.

See if we sinned just once a day. And we know we sin probably hundreds. But lets do the math on one sin alone. That is 365 sins a year. Before your are even a teenager you have committed 3,650 sins. In an average 80 year life span you have committed nearly 30,000 sins.

So far, that's all finite.

But imagine being a superiour being, and being constantly reminded not just of yesterdays sins, but of sins you did when you were a baby.

Why would God have such a thin skin? Or are you confusing yourself with God?

I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful.

So God doesn't have a thin skin?

Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins.

So God could just forgive you and not send you to Hell?

Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition.

So now this isn't about God at all? Why was I being asked to imagine being a superior being?

Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much.

Are you speaking about yourself? I'm pretty sure that no one "would rather be in hell" being tortured unless God were an evil being.

So God gives them what they want.

That sounds like sophistry to me. No one wants to be tortured for an eternity.

But it is when they actually feel the heat, like lazerus... that they start being sorry.

So pain is the only thing you understand? Is goodness simply the avoidance of pain? That doesn't make people good, only self-protective. And that's a good reason we human beings don't simply torture people in prisons. What good would it do?

But then it's too late.

No, we haven't established that. We're asking if an infinite time in hell makes good sense. You're now just citing your dogma.

Now I used to teach that the Bible taught eternal torment, not eternal torture. But that is just semantics. Those words are synonymous.

Not exactly synonymous, but you are correct that the result is the same.

One sounds better yes.

No, both sound incredibly evil. I suppose that one may sound better if one thinks that Stalin "sounds" slightly less evil than Hitler, or vice-versa.

But if the Bible was written in modern terms, I don't see a single problem with it mentioning torture.

I don't know you from Adam, and I'm not a psychologist, but reading your words makes me think that the sort of heartlessness contained within is sociopathic.

Because of the above information. It changes your perspective doesn't it?

Not really, no. It just makes me feel sorry for anyone who would have such views. I am happy that there are Christians who don't share those views.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I just did that. The soul is infinite because it is in a timelessness.

Again, that does nothing at all to help your argument. Even if 'souls' are infinite, you are not judged based on that. You are judged based on the finite time you spend on earth.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I voted for "eternal conscious hellfire".
Although I do not myself believe that hell exists in any form, I do believe that the Bible makes it clear that Christians should believe that eternal conscious torment in real.

 

[gaara4158]

http://pubs.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/BASIS/pcandid/www/engpub/DDW?W=SYSNUM=525204

that is the peer review behind the flatlander theory, I suppose that is what you wanted. I cannot demonstrate proof of a higher dimension, we can only theorize. But my theory is no worse than your theory about the same material.

No, that’s not a peer-reviewed paper about flatlander theory, it’s a paper about how cameras can focus on targets moving in three-dimensional planes.

But anyway, if you can’t demonstrate evidence for a higher dimension, you have no business having that higher dimension as part of your explanation of souls experiencing things without time. You’re just making things up to fit your opinion.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

See if we sinned just once a day. And we know we sin probably hundreds. But lets do the math on one sin alone. That is 365 sins a year. Before your are even a teenager you have committed 3,650 sins. In an average 80 year life span you have committed nearly 30,000 sins. Now that's all fine and dandy because we forget about what we had for lunch yesterday. But imagine being a superior being, and being constantly reminded not just of yesterdays sins, but of sins you did when you were a baby. (because God is omniscient, and knows everything).

I have a feeling that if God is wise and good, he probably isn't going to act as you suggest.
Follow your own reasoning. A baby has sinned? So we should...punish the baby? Lock it in jail? Hit it?
Or should we just say: it's a baby, it doesn't know any better.
If, that is, you consider screaming for a rattle, pooping your pants and biting on things when teething to be "sins". And if you do, and you think these deserve to be punishment, then I hope you're not a babysitter or a parent.

As for teenagers and adults and the sins (or "sins") the commit - well, if we don't think these are worth punishing in life, then why should they be punished after death either?

And finally - eternal hellfire? I would not wish that on my worst enemy. I would not wish one day of hellfire on my worst enemy. If I saw my worst enemy suffering in a fiery pit, and if I could help him out, I would do it in a heartbeat. And so, I hope would you.

 

[createdtoworship]

This brings back horrors of my childhood christian experience. I was taught exactly this. And though I was expecting salvation in Christ, I had torments that every day I was still experiencing thoughts of anger. If each of these thoughts made me deserving of eternal torment, what a horrible person I must be! And so I spent every day trying to keep from thinking angry thoughts, and always losing the mental struggle.

It is not wrong to have an angry thought. It is human. Years of evolution have conditioned us to feel this way when we perceive we are attacked. It is far better to feel the feelings that come, without guilt, and then rationally respond in a respectful manner.

A christian is saved by grace. Many hyper Pentecostal groups teach that if you struggle with sin you have no assurance of salvation, but these same people have their own struggles with sin. That is not a proper way to teach. Sin causes death yes, but after coming to Christ sin merely destroys your life, not your eternal life. Although if you continue in the same sin, and start feeling comfortable in it, that sin can decieve you to where you start to doubt the gospel itself, and thus become apostate, and leave the faith. This last year God has delivered me from two addictions. Two of the most common addictions in american history. It was only after being forgiven, that I wanted to follow God more with all of my heart. The sin I was doing was ruining my life, so I repented of it. And kept repenting of it when I fell, until eventually the Bible says "if you resist satan He will flee." We are saved and forgiven, when we struggle with sin, He will save us. It's when we no longer struggle but embrace the sin, and think. We are saved, God will forgive this too. That sin sews a seed in our life, that grows, and when it is full mature, it brings forth a forfeiture of salvation. I was angry yesterday, I was tired I was trying to sleep and my wife kept calling me from the grocery store asking what I wanted. I used an angry voice, because I was angry. I sinned. I even prayed that the ringing would stop. God didn't answer that prayer. It was one of the only prayers He didn't answer all day, so I thought I had some hidden sin, that I didn't know I was doing. But it ended up being a test. God was testing me, that when I am tired, I still retain love in my heart. I am not unsaved because of this sin. The difference is that I am struggling with it, and God is working this out of my life slowly. I don't have ability in myself to stop it. Because when I am tired I can't control my emotions well. But God is working in me to have victory even over this, and I claim it by faith. Anger is a lack of faith. If we are in a situation where we don't like it, we become bitter. And we lack the faith that God has us exactly where we should be just to deal with our anger issues. But don't give up and just think that anger is ok. God can root it out of your heart. When we sin, we curse our own lives. Anger causes breaks in relationships. If it evolved as you say, then it's a virus in american evolution, and causes relationships to others in the pack to be destroyed. What should have evolved, if evolution was in fact true, is love. Because love grows our herd and family. But it didn't, and this shows to me evolution is false.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

A christian is saved by grace. Many hyper Pentecostal groups teach that if you struggle with sin you have no assurance of salvation, but these same people have their own struggles with sin. That is not a proper way to teach. Sin causes death yes, but after coming to Christ sin merely destroys your life, not your eternal life. Although if you continue in the same sin, and start feeling comfortable in it, that sin can decieve you to where you start to doubt the gospel itself, and thus become apostate, and leave the faith. This last year God has delivered me from two addictions. Two of the most common addictions in american history. It was only after being forgiven, that I wanted to follow God more with all of my heart. The sin I was doing was ruining my life, so I repented of it. And kept repenting of it when I fell, until eventually the Bible says "if you resist satan He will flee." We are saved and forgiven, when we struggle with sin, He will save us. It's when we no longer struggle but embrace the sin, and think. We are saved, God will forgive this too. That sin sews a seed in our life, that grows, and when it is full mature, it brings forth a forfeiture of salvation. I was angry yesterday, I was tired I was trying to sleep and my wife kept calling me from the grocery store asking what I wanted. I used an angry voice, because I was angry. I sinned. I even prayed that the ringing would stop. God didn't answer that prayer. It was one of the only prayers He didn't answer all day, so I thought I had some hidden sin, that I didn't know I was doing. But it ended up being a test. God was testing me, that when I am tired, I still retain love in my heart. I am not unsaved because of this sin. The difference is that I am struggling with it, and God is working this out of my life slowly. I don't have ability in myself to stop it. Because when I am tired I can't control my emotions well. But God is working in me to have victory even over this, and I claim it by faith. Anger is a lack of faith. If we are in a situation where we don't like it, we become bitter. And we lack the faith that God has us exactly where we should be just to deal with our anger issues. But don't give up and just think that anger is ok. God can root it out of your heart. When we sin, we curse our own lives. Anger causes breaks in relationships. If it evolved as you say, then it's a virus in american evolution, and causes relationships to others in the pack to be destroyed. What should have evolved, if evolution was in fact true, is love. Because love grows our herd and family. But it didn't, and this shows to me evolution is false.

I can see that this is difficult and painful for you. I would like to respectfully point out that atheism offers good news. Many atheists have written of the enormous relief they felt once they realised that God was not real, that there was no danger they would ever go to hell, and that nobody else would either. This was not selfishness on their part; indeed, it reflected well on their morality that they feared for others - and, in embracing the good news of atheism, they found that the world was saved from damnation.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, I wouldn't. I can't imagine why I would.

I'm not saying that I approve of such acts, since I value excellence of character. However, I don't see such imperfections as justifications for punishment. Yes, in the case of murder, rape, kidnapping, torture, etc, I can see some justification for sending someone to prison for a finite time in order to protect innocents and to show the criminals that their bad character won't be tolerated. That may give them a chance to "turn over a new leaf" and work on themselves. I recommend that they take up meditation, or philosophical reflection, or learning productive skills and taking pride in newfound virtues.

However, infinite punishments for finite crimes is ridiculously over-the-top, and is not justice at all. It is tyranny. That is especially true if you are just punishing someone for just getting irritated with others now and then ("angry words"). Yes, a peaceful mind is preferable to an angry mind, but that's no reason to see putting someone in hell as an act of justice.



So far, that's all finite.



Why would God have such a thin skin? Or are you confusing yourself with God?



So God doesn't have a thin skin?



So God could just forgive you and not send you to Hell?



So now this isn't about God at all? Why was I being asked to imagine being a superior being?



Are you speaking about yourself? I'm pretty sure that no one "would rather be in hell" being tortured unless God were an evil being.



That sounds like sophistry to me. No one wants to be tortured for an eternity.



So pain is the only thing you understand? Is goodness simply the avoidance of pain? That doesn't make people good, only self-protective. And that's a good reason we human beings don't simply torture people in prisons. What good would it do?



No, we haven't established that. We're asking if an infinite time in hell makes good sense. You're now just citing your dogma.



Not exactly synonymous, but you are correct that the result is the same.



No, both sound incredibly evil. I suppose that one may sound better if one thinks that Stalin "sounds" slightly less evil than Hitler, or vice-versa.



I don't know you from Adam, and I'm not a psychologist, but reading your words makes me think that the sort of heartlessness contained within is sociopathic.



Not really, no. It just makes me feel sorry for anyone who would have such views. I am happy that there are Christians who don't share those views.


eudaimonia,

Mark

again the gist of the argument is that one that commits finite sins, should not be tortured in an infinite way. I have addressed this twice already, but since your new here I will do it again.

the soul is infinite, time according to general relativity on accelerates mass, if you have no mass you don't have time. Let me quote Einstein: “Time and space and gravitation have no separate existence from matter.” Many things we intermingle with actually exist in higher dimensions, the soul is one of those things, angels are another, they have no mass therefore they are timeless and for this illustration infinite. Although infinite is a misnomer, an infinity is a lot of time, where timelessness is no time is being applied. But granted we will say that the soul is infinite. If the soul is infinite then when it sins, commands our body to sin. It bears the responsibility for that evil. Because it commanded it. All sin is eternal. Because it started out as a thought. And thoughts can be sin. IT makes more sense when you think of it this way. Information in general is eternal, it has no mass. Only higher up information theorists know what I am talking about, but I will let the cat out of the bag. Information cannot be destroyed. Information I can also say, has always existed. It is up to us to discover it. Sin is going against the information, and violating the information. Information is Holy, and Just. And pure. And it is in that information we see the law of nature as CS lewis put it. Every tribe in the world uses this moral law. Never in a tribe or culture do you see selfishness honored, and self sacrifice not honored. But anyway, I hope this answers your question. For one infinite sin, we deserve to be punished for eternity. Because sins are eternal. But there is hope, Jesus died for our sins, and we can receive the free gift of eternal life. But you must repent of known sins, prepare your heart to receive Him by faith, and receive Him. At that point you will be saved because you chose to follow the one person who can save. This means no more inappropriate contentography, no more prostitution, online or other, taking the high road, curbing your anger. And just basically following Christ.

Are you ready to do that today?

 

[createdtoworship]

Again, that does nothing at all to help your argument. Even if 'souls' are infinite, you are not judged based on that. You are judged based on the finite time you spend on earth.

the soul controls the physical body, thus bears responsibility for it's actions. Sort of like how the boss of your department bears the consequences of your actions, if your reports are not filed on time.

 

[createdtoworship]

I voted for "eternal conscious hellfire".
Although I do not myself believe that hell exists in any form, I do believe that the Bible makes it clear that Christians should believe that eternal conscious torment in real.

At least you realize the christian religion should teach it, that's a wise decision. Many christians don't teach it, because of being confused about it.

 

[createdtoworship]

I can see that this is difficult and painful for you. I would like to respectfully point out that atheism offers good news. Many atheists have written of the enormous relief they felt once they realised that God was not real, that there was no danger they would ever go to hell, and that nobody else would either. This was not selfishness on their part; indeed, it reflected well on their morality that they feared for others - and, in embracing the good news of atheism, they found that the world was saved from damnation.

sir thank you. But no thanks. If I were to leave the christian faith I would heap severe cursings, all of my fomer sin would return in number, and overwhelm me. In the Bible when the Jews fell into temptation with the nations around them, and started worshiping pagan Gods, they because so engaged with these false religions that they became gross and nasty. Even the pagan nations started to distance themselves from them. They were worse sinners than all of the nations around them. Their former sins returned, and their latter end was worse than the beginning. It would have been better for those atheists to have never been christian:

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2 peter 2:20-23


But christianity is the blessed life, like I said i have conquered two addictions, and God blesses me every day. My prayers are answered, my relationships are meaningful, and loving. I am doing better than I deserve thats for sure. All because of Jesus in my life.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, that’s not a peer-reviewed paper about flatlander theory, it’s a paper about how cameras can focus on targets moving in three-dimensional planes.

But anyway, if you can’t demonstrate evidence for a higher dimension, you have no business having that higher dimension as part of your explanation of souls experiencing things without time. You’re just making things up to fit your opinion.

thats ok, it's basic geometry anyways.

 

[mmksparbud]

again the gist of the argument is that one that commits finite sins, should not be tortured in an infinite way. I have addressed this twice already, but since your new here I will do it again.

the soul is infinite, time according to general relativity on accelerates mass, if you have no mass you don't have time. Let me quote Einstein: “Time and space and gravitation have no separate existence from matter.” Many things we intermingle with actually exist in higher dimensions, the soul is one of those things, angels are another, they have no mass therefore they are timeless and for this illustration infinite. Although infinite is a misnomer, an infinity is a lot of time, where timelessness is no time is being applied. But granted we will say that the soul is infinite. If the soul is infinite then when it sins, commands our body to sin. It bears the responsibility for that evil. Because it commanded it. All sin is eternal. Because it started out as a thought. And thoughts can be sin. IT makes more sense when you think of it this way. Information in general is eternal, it has no mass. Only higher up information theorists know what I am talking about, but I will let the cat out of the bag. Information cannot be destroyed. Information I can also say, has always existed. It is up to us to discover it. Sin is going against the information, and violating the information. Information is Holy, and Just. And pure. And it is in that information we see the law of nature as CS lewis put it. Every tribe in the world uses this moral law. Never in a tribe or culture do you see selfishness honored, and self sacrifice not honored. But anyway, I hope this answers your question. For one infinite sin, we deserve to be punished for eternity. Because sins are eternal. But there is hope, Jesus died for our sins, and we can receive the free gift of eternal life. But you must repent of known sins, prepare your heart to receive Him by faith, and receive Him. At that point you will be saved because you chose to follow the one person who can save. This means no more inappropriate contentography, no more prostitution, online or other, taking the high road, curbing your anger. And just basically following Christ.

Are you ready to do that today?

You can read every single word of the bible 100 times over and not once will you find the words "immortal soul" in it. It is not in it. It is a concept that derived from Greek philosophy, never from Christianity. God did not tell Adam and if that if they ate of the tree their souls would burn in hell forever. He plainly said they would die. Not one word about souls there at all. And please don't tell me that He meant their souls---either way---they would die not burn forever!! If you want to consider that God was telling a half truth, you have a warped sense of God! He doesn't lie, He dioesn't tell 1/2 truths. The unrepentant sinner will pay in the lake of fire according to their works---not forever.
One has to take into account how the word forever is used. I've said, and so has everyone else, that waiting on the phone for these machines to answer can take "forever"---well, it doesn't. Jonah was not in the belly of that whale forever, he just felt like it had been. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with eternal fire---it is not still burning---they are however, still dead! The price of sin is death, that means at their appoointed time in the lake of fire, they will be dead forever.
The concept that babies and those that do not understand sin will burn forever is not of God. God is love, God is justice. He can not go against His charcter.
God states He will destroy sin, "Sin will not rise a second time." As long as there are sinners burning, there is sin. God remakes the earth anew---there will be no more tears, no more pain---as long as there is a burning hell there are tears and pain. Hell, and death will all be destroyed--permanently, forever. Not that the burning goes on forever.

 

[doubtingmerle]

A christian is saved by grace. Many hyper Pentecostal groups teach that if you struggle with sin you have no assurance of salvation, but these same people have their own struggles with sin. That is not a proper way to teach. Sin causes death yes, but after coming to Christ sin merely destroys your life, not your eternal life. Although if you continue in the same sin, and start feeling comfortable in it, that sin can decieve you to where you start to doubt the gospel itself, and thus become apostate, and leave the faith. This last year God has delivered me from two addictions. Two of the most common addictions in american history. It was only after being forgiven, that I wanted to follow God more with all of my heart. The sin I was doing was ruining my life, so I repented of it. And kept repenting of it when I fell, until eventually the Bible says "if you resist satan He will flee." We are saved and forgiven, when we struggle with sin, He will save us. It's when we no longer struggle but embrace the sin, and think. We are saved, God will forgive this too. That sin sews a seed in our life, that grows, and when it is full mature, it brings forth a forfeiture of salvation. I was angry yesterday, I was tired I was trying to sleep and my wife kept calling me from the grocery store asking what I wanted. I used an angry voice, because I was angry. I sinned. I even prayed that the ringing would stop. God didn't answer that prayer. It was one of the only prayers He didn't answer all day, so I thought I had some hidden sin, that I didn't know I was doing. But it ended up being a test. God was testing me, that when I am tired, I still retain love in my heart. I am not unsaved because of this sin. The difference is that I am struggling with it, and God is working this out of my life slowly. I don't have ability in myself to stop it. Because when I am tired I can't control my emotions well. But God is working in me to have victory even over this, and I claim it by faith. Anger is a lack of faith. If we are in a situation where we don't like it, we become bitter. And we lack the faith that God has us exactly where we should be just to deal with our anger issues. But don't give up and just think that anger is ok. God can root it out of your heart. When we sin, we curse our own lives. Anger causes breaks in relationships. If it evolved as you say, then it's a virus in american evolution, and causes relationships to others in the pack to be destroyed. What should have evolved, if evolution was in fact true, is love. Because love grows our herd and family. But it didn't, and this shows to me evolution is false.

I am confused why you write a diatribe explaining that Christians expect salvation in Christ, when I already told you, as a Christian, I had expected salvation in Christ.

But no matter how much one believes it, if some are going to hell for not truly being saved, then one always has to question whether he is one of those destined for hell.

It was not only hell I feared. It was the thought that everyday I was experiencing thoughts that were so horrible they made me worthy of hell fire. That is misery that no child should be put through. One could never hide from the internal thought police that judged me for every natural thought I ever had.

As others have explained, opening ourselves up to views that we are not deserving of eternal torment can be truly liberating.

 

[doubtingmerle]

What should have evolved, if evolution was in fact true, is love. Because love grows our herd and family. But it didn't, and this shows to me evolution is false.

That's odd.

For me, feelings of love is one of the things evolution gave me. I have natural feelings of love for others, especially to those who reciprocate and show love back. It evolved because I am a member of a social species.

But I also have feelings of anger and hate when I perceive I am hurt.

The point is that I don't deserve eternal hell because I have certain instinctual feelings when I feel I am being hurt by others.