see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.
No, I wouldn't. I can't imagine why I would.
I'm not saying that I approve of such acts, since I value excellence of character. However, I don't see such imperfections as justifications for punishment. Yes, in the case of murder, rape, kidnapping, torture, etc, I can see some justification for sending someone to prison for a finite time in order to protect innocents and to show the criminals that their bad character won't be tolerated. That may give them a chance to "turn over a new leaf" and work on themselves. I recommend that they take up meditation, or philosophical reflection, or learning productive skills and taking pride in newfound virtues.
However, infinite punishments for finite crimes is ridiculously over-the-top, and is not justice at all. It is tyranny. That is especially true if you are just punishing someone for just getting irritated with others now and then ("angry words"). Yes, a peaceful mind is preferable to an angry mind, but that's no reason to see putting someone in hell as an act of justice.
See if we sinned just once a day. And we know we sin probably hundreds. But lets do the math on one sin alone. That is 365 sins a year. Before your are even a teenager you have committed 3,650 sins. In an average 80 year life span you have committed nearly 30,000 sins.
So far, that's all finite.
But imagine being a superiour being, and being constantly reminded not just of yesterdays sins, but of sins you did when you were a baby.
Why would God have such a thin skin? Or are you confusing yourself with God?
I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful.
So God doesn't have a thin skin?
Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins.
So God could just forgive you and not send you to Hell?
Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition.
So now this isn't about God at all? Why was I being asked to imagine being a superior being?
Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much.
Are you speaking about yourself? I'm pretty sure that no one "would rather be in hell" being tortured unless God were an evil being.
So God gives them what they want.
That sounds like sophistry to me. No one
wants to be tortured for an eternity.
But it is when they actually feel the heat, like lazerus... that they start being sorry.
So pain is the only thing you understand? Is goodness simply the avoidance of pain? That doesn't make people good, only self-protective. And that's a good reason we human beings don't simply torture people in prisons. What good would it do?
No, we haven't established that. We're asking if an infinite time in hell makes good sense. You're now just citing your dogma.
Now I used to teach that the Bible taught eternal torment, not eternal torture. But that is just semantics. Those words are synonymous.
Not exactly synonymous, but you are correct that the result is the same.
No, both sound incredibly evil. I suppose that one may sound better if one thinks that Stalin "sounds" slightly less evil than Hitler, or vice-versa.
But if the Bible was written in modern terms, I don't see a single problem with it mentioning torture.
I don't know you from Adam, and I'm not a psychologist, but reading your words makes me think that the sort of heartlessness contained within is sociopathic.
Because of the above information. It changes your perspective doesn't it?
Not really, no. It just makes me feel sorry for anyone who would have such views. I am happy that there are Christians who don't share those views.
eudaimonia,
Mark