Futurist Only Eschatology poll

[Psalm3704]

You and all who grip onto the theory of a rapture to heaven, fail to read and understand properly what God really wants for His people. It is and always was, to have a people who truly believed in Him, kept His Commandment's and were His witnesses to the nations. Ancient Israel failed in this task, but there will be a new nation that will 'bear the proper fruit'. Matthew 21:43

Keras,

The church is not Israel. Ancient Israel failed but you're putting the church in the same shoe as Israel. The church has not failed God and Christ will come for His elects when the right time comes. The church does not endure the same fate Israel will. You need to rightly divide the church from Israel.

You can meditate on hundreds of old testament scriptures of what will happen on earth and the Israelites, you can even dwell on 50 scriptures, but there's just one scripture you need to know about the fate of the church and where our destiny lies during the tribulation: Revelation 7:9.

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,​

There is NO plan B. Note in Romans 8:26 In the very place.....My people will be called 'sons of the Living God'. Undeniably in the holy Land, not in heaven.

Keras,

Romans 8:26 doesn't say "In the very place.....My people will be called 'sons of the Living God'.

You sure you're reading the bible correctly or is this another mistake like the one you did with me a few weeks ago?











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[keras]

The church is not Israel. Ancient Israel failed but you're putting the church in the same shoe as Israel. The church has not failed God and Christ will come for His elects when the right time comes. The church does not endure the same fate Israel will. You need to rightly divide the church from Israel.

Yes, the Church is not the State of Israel, but all true Christians are deemed to be Israelites. Romans 9:8

Romans 8:26 doesn't say "In the very place.....My people will be called 'sons of the Living God'.

Sorry, typo. Romans 9:26
There is no rapture removal to heaven of any one other than the 2 witnesses and they will stay there for a very short time.
We are earth beings and our role is on earth, God has angels to serve Him in heaven.

 

[keras]

As for Psalm 37:29, that will certainly apply when we're inhabiting the New Earth.

Maybe, but that idea doesn't fit with the many other prophesies saying how the Lord's people will inhabit all of the holy Land, soon after His Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:1-31, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 31:1-40, Amos 9:13-15, Micah 7:11-12, Zephaniah 3:8-12, Zechariah 8:7-8

 

[iamlamad]

You state that when people say "peace and safety", that is when a "post-rapture great tribulation" begins. The scriptures say that when people are saying "peace and safety", that is when "sudden destruction" comes and "they will not escape." Why is it that 1 Thessalonians 5 says something different than what you are saying? How do you manage to interpret "sudden destruction" as "prolonged tribulation"?

Most people miss this, but Paul tells us that two things happen and the same time, or that two different groups of people get two different results at a sudden happening: those living in the darkness get the sudden destruction while at the same time those living in the Light get raptured and get to "live together with Him." So what does this all mean?

A SUDDENLY comes, at a time when people are saying and believing "peace and safety" - a day quite like TODAY.
SUDDENLY the dead in Christ rise up from their graves. This resurrection of untold millions of believers from around the world will cause a worldwide earthquake, like nothing ever seen on earth. That earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction" and will be the earthquake at the 6th seal that will be the SIGN along with the blood moon and darkened sun of the Day of the Lord. The rapture then will come the moment after this earthquake begins, but the dead in Christ will rise before it and will be the trigger for it.

Paul continues that we are caught up before the earthquake harms us, because we have NO APPOINTMENT with His wrath. John then finished the 6th seal with "the Day of His wrath" has come.

 

[iamlamad]

Nowhere does scripture say any people group will be taken to heaven. The only prophecy telling about any kind of removal is Revelation 12:14 where the 'woman' that is: righteous Israelites will be taken to a place of safety on earth for 1260 days.
You are simply making up a removal to heaven. True, God has prepared homes in heaven, they are in the new Jerusalem, that will come down to us after the Millennium.

The verses I emphasis are those about the truth of God's plans for His people. You make out a rapture where there is none and ignore the many prophesies describing how the Lord's people will live in the holy Land. Psalms 37:29

Why do you keep stating something clearly NOT TRUE? Preconceived glasses? You are simply not believing the message of John 14. Jesus went to HEAVEN to prepare HOMES for us, and the day will come that He will come and get us and take us to those homes He has prepared. What is so difficult about that passage? MILLIONS believe it, just as it is written. You struggle with it due to preconceptions.

Again you miss the mark, because Rev. 7 shows the raptured church as a group TOO LARGE TO NUMBER IN HEAVEN. HOW did they get there? WHEN did they get there? They got there by way of Paul's rapture just before the 6th seal. John SAW them there shortly after. They got there by way of Paul's rapture and John 14. Why not just believe what is written? Take off your preconceived glasses and just believe the truth!

WAKE UP! WHO did Jesus say will flee? Does the word not say it is THOSE IN JUDEA? This wild and crazy idea that people will fly from around the world to some safe place in the Middle east is only HUMAN REASONING and is not backed by any kind of scripture. It is wishful thinking. The scripture for those left behind is simple: THEY WILL BE OVERCOME.

I make out a rapture where this is none? WAKE UP! The rapture has been written since Paul wrote 1 Thes. The truth is, your preconceived glasses have prevented you from seeing the TRUTH.

If you wish to WAIT until the 1000 years are over to live in your mansion, GO AHEAD. But don't try to convince others to follow you. If you would just read the scriptures AS THEY ARE, without any manipulation, there is JUST ONE VERSE in Revelation that debunks your theory.

 

[iamlamad]

That's not what I said. In fact, this is the complete opposite of what you think I said.

You might want to go back and reread what I've said but if that still doesn't sink in, here's a different perspective of what I've said. There's 4 major views on the timing of the rapture: PreTrib, MidTrib, PreWrath and PostTrib.

Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3, the day of the lord when Christ comes happens in verse 2. His coming happens in a time of peace and safety in verse 3.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.And they shall not escape.​

So Christ comes for the church at a time of peace and safety:

1) Can Christ come for the church MidTrib? No! Because 1/3 of the world population just died at the 6th trumpet event: Revelation 9:15. No peace and safety!

VERY GOOD! Absolute truth!

2) Can Christ come for the church PreWrath? No! Because the antichrist now becomes the beast of Revelation 13. No peace and safety!

I disagree: the rapture is both PREWRATH and PRETRIB because God's wrath begins with the earthquake at the 6th seal. But the rapture CERTAINLY cannot come anywhere in chapters 11-16 as you say.

3) Can Christ come for the church PostTrib? Absolutely not! The whole world just went through Armageddon. Majority of people in the world just died. Absolutely no one will even think peace and safety.

Again absolute truth! Not to mention, they will MISS the marriage and supper IN HEAVEN.

4) So that only leaves one final option. Can Christ come for the church before the tribulation starts? Yes! Pre tribulation is the only time of peace and safety!

A day just like TODAY.​

The day of the Lord when Christ comes is in verse 2. After Christ raptures the church ---- at a time of peace and safety --- then sudden destruction comes upon the world.

And here's your sudden destruction. This is what will happen when millions of people vanish off the face of the earth. Cars with no drivers will crash, planes with no pilots will fall from the sky, etc.......sudden destruction all over the earth. The world goes from peace and safety one minute to a global chaos the next minute. It all just suddenly changed!

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I think the sudden destruction will come from another direction. Certainly these things will happen, but there will be a worldwide earthquake, as seen at the 6th seal. THAT will be the sudden destruction.

 

[iamlamad]

Yes, the Church is not the State of Israel, but all true Christians are deemed to be Israelites. Romans 9:8

Sorry, typo. Romans 9:26
There is no rapture removal to heaven of any one other than the 2 witnesses and they will stay there for a very short time.
We are earth beings and our role is on earth, God has angels to serve Him in heaven.

Simple Tommy rot.

 

[ivebeenshown]

That's not what I said. In fact, this is the complete opposite of what you think I said.

Are you sure about that? Because these are your exact words:

Pre tribulation is the only time of peace and safety!

So when people say "peace and safety", that's when, according to you, the rapture happens, followed by great tribulation.

But Paul didn't say that great tribulation comes after the rapture, he said sudden destruction comes. In addition, according to basic understanding of grammar, Paul says that the "they" who say "peace and safety" is the same "them" upon whom sudden destruction comes.

 

[iamlamad]

Are you sure about that? Because these are your exact words:



So when people say "peace and safety", that's when, according to you, the rapture happens, followed by great tribulation.

But Paul didn't say that great tribulation comes after the rapture, he said sudden destruction comes. In addition, according to basic understanding of grammar, Paul says that the "they" who say "peace and safety" is the same "them" upon whom sudden destruction comes.

me thinks you do not understand Paul at all. Do you have any idea of the chronology of Revelation? Paul tells us that the Sudden Destruction is the Day of the Lord, or the day of His wrath. It has to be the BEGINNING of the Day, because the moment before it was peace and safety. Where does this fit in Revelation? It fits at the 6th seal, where John shows us the DAy of His WRATH begins. And that that point in Revelation, John has not yet even started the 70th week, but less arrived at the last where the days of GT will come. So OF COURSE the days of GT will come AFTER the rapture.

 

[keras]

If you wish to WAIT until the 1000 years are over to live in your mansion, GO AHEAD. But don't try to convince others to follow you. If you would just read the scriptures AS THEY ARE, without any manipulation, there is JUST ONE VERSE in Revelation that debunks your theory.

As Revelation 21:1-2 clearly states, the New Jerusalem does not come down to earth, where we live, until the end of the Millennium. Thinking anyone will live there before then, is just wrong.
I assume the verse you allude to is Revelation 19:1 John hears the voices of a great multitude in heaven.....
Who are those people? It is just an assumption to think they are live people raptured to heaven.
The Fifth Seal, Revelation 6:9-11 gives the answer. They are all who have been killed for their faith, with their souls kept under the Altar in heaven and their number is complete by the time of Rev 19, so they shout for joy, as they go with Jesus to earth, where John saw all those souls come to life again. Here it is, I suggest you take careful note:
Revelation 20:4 And I saw Thrones and on them sat those to whom judgement was committed. And I saw the souls of all who had been beheaded, all who had kept their faith unto death. .....they lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.

If you want to believe in going alive to heaven, go ahead, but scripture does not say that will happen and trying to convince others of such a false belief is a serious matter that may affect your future.
What Paul teaches in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 supports what I have presented. When the Lord Jesus descends from heaven, first the righteous dead will rise, then those who are still alive will join them, to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we will always be with the Lord. On earth, where He will reign for 1000 years.

 

[iamlamad]

As Revelation 21:1-2 clearly states, the New Jerusalem does not come down to earth, where we live, until the end of the Millennium. Thinking anyone will live there before then, is just wrong.
I assume the verse you allude to is Revelation 19:1 John hears the voices of a great multitude in heaven.....
Who are those people? It is just an assumption to think they are live people raptured to heaven.
The Fifth Seal, Revelation 6:9-11 gives the answer. They are all who have been killed for their faith, with their souls kept under the Altar in heaven and their number is complete by the time of Rev 19, so they shout for joy, as they go with Jesus to earth, where John saw all those souls come to life again. Here it is, I suggest you take careful note:
Revelation 20:4 And I saw Thrones and on them sat those to whom judgement was committed. And I saw the souls of all who had been beheaded, all who had kept their faith unto death. .....they lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.

If you want to believe in going alive to heaven, go ahead, but scripture does not say that will happen and trying to convince others of such a false belief is a serious matter that may affect your future.
What Paul teaches in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 supports what I have presented. When the Lord Jesus descends from heaven, first the righteous dead will rise, then those who are still alive will join them, to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we will always be with the Lord. On earth, where He will reign for 1000 years.

You just keep on believing that if it works for you! But you are ignoring the intent of John 14.

 

[keras]

Simple Tommy rot.

This statement is a direct denial of the truth of the holy scriptures.

You just keep on believing that if it works for you! But you are ignoring the intent of John 14.

You raptureists always hark back to John 14:1-5, as though that prophecy proves your false theory.
Jesus is in heaven now, He is preparing places for His chosen people, then He will come again; to earth, so where He is there His people may be also: on earth.
The joke is, you misread it and it actually proves an earthly future for all the Lord's righteous people, something reiterated many times in OT prophecy. Ezekiel 34:11-31

 

[Psalm3704]

Are you sure about that? Because these are your exact words:

You pulled that quote from post #60. That's not the post you were arguing against which is post #42. You're not very honest and already pulling a strawman tactic as you're obviously in denial if your first rebuttal already requires dishonestly twisting the things I've written.

So when people say "peace and safety", that's when, according to you, the rapture happens, followed by great tribulation.

But Paul didn't say that great tribulation comes after the rapture, he said sudden destruction comes. In addition, according to basic understanding of grammar, Paul says that the "they" who say "peace and safety" is the same "them" upon whom sudden destruction comes.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.​

What part of "day of the Lord" do you not understand? When does the day of the Lord happen? It does not happen 1000 years before the tribulation. It does not happen 1000 years after the tribulation. The day of the Lord comes at a time of the tribulation.

What part of "And they shall not escape" do you not understand? What part of not making the rapture and being left behind do you not understand? This parallels Luke's prophecy in Luke 21:34-36. You missed the first day of the Lord at the rapture, you will now have to endure 7 years of tribulation until Christ comes again at the end, but you will not see it as most will die near the end, Luke 17:22. People left behind will be trapped on earth, early on you will seek death wanting to die from all the chaos and destruction but you will not be allowed to die until the appropriate time, Revelation 9:6. You will be handed over to the antichrist - Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-7 for 42 months - either take the mark or be beheaded, Revelation 20:4.

Now what part of and "they shall not escape" do you still not understand? It's your choice, Revelation 13:10.

Luke 21:34-36
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”​

Luke 17:22 The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.​

Revelation 9:6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
​

Did you actually needed Paul to write the words great tribulation in 1 Thess 5:1-3 to know he was talking about "they and them" having to endure the tribulation?

In addition, according to basic understanding of grammar, Paul says that the "they" who say "peace and safety" is the same "them" upon whom sudden destruction comes.

And you need to read more carefully as I've already covered "they and them" in post #42. See the big bolded red words in the quote below? Do I need to made them even bigger, bolder and redder?

Case #2:
1) Notice also that Paul from chapter 5 verses 1 to 4, he addressed the church as "you" 6 times.
2) Notice Paul said "they and them" 3 times in verse 3? "And they shall not escape." Those whom Paul called "they and them" who will not escape is not the church.

You can tell those being left behind are "they" who will not escape as Paul addressed the church as "You."

If you don't like my new attitude, be more honest next time.















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[Psalm3704]

Paul says 'sudden destruction.' Peter describes the earth and the works therein being burned up with fervent heat, and the earth and heavens being dissolved, all of the elements melting. So are these two different destructions, in such a way that Peter describes a destruction which is not sudden?

Definitely have no idea of what 2 Peter 3:10 means nor 1 Thess 5:3 as you can't tell the difference nor the timeline. The tribulation is 7 years. 1 Thess 5:2-3 will be completed in less than an hour.


2 Peter 3:10.
20 million degrees fahrenheit - hotter than the sun. Instant vaporization!

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[Psalm3704]

Yes, the Church is not the State of Israel, but all true Christians are deemed to be Israelites. Romans 9:8

Sorry, typo. Romans 9:26

Keras,

The church will never be called the Israelites. When Christ returns as the good shepherd to gathers all His elects like a mother hen longing to gather her chicks under her wings, Matthew 23:37, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27 there will be no more separation between Israel and the church. When the church returns to earth for the millennium, the only way we'll all be called Israelites is if everyone on earth during the millennium lives only in Israel. It'll be a pretty tight squeeze even with Israel's newly expanded bounder. It just won't work.

Look at the verse YOU wrote: Romans 9:26 "They will be called sons of the living God."

There is no rapture removal to heaven of any one other than the 2 witnesses and they will stay there for a very short time.
We are earth beings and our role is on earth, God has angels to serve Him in heaven.

There will be for the time of the tribulation. Keep reading Revelation 7:9. It's bound to click sooner or later.







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[iamlamad]

This statement is a direct denial of the truth of the holy scriptures.

You raptureists always hark back to John 14:1-5, as though that prophecy proves your false theory.
Jesus is in heaven now, He is preparing places for His chosen people, then He will come again; to earth, so where He is there His people may be also: on earth.
The joke is, you misread it and it actually proves an earthly future for all the Lord's righteous people, something reiterated many times in OT prophecy. Ezekiel 34:11-31

This statement is a direct denial of the truth of the holy scriptures.

No, that is what YOU wrote.
No, Jesus will spend the ENTIRE 70th week IN HEAVEN. I will be there with Him, in my resurrection body - along with all who are expecting His pretrib coming. You, on the other hand, will be left behind, because you will not be expecting Him or watching for Him. Just because you can't see it or believe it does not mean millions of others cannot see it or believe it. It is there, written for all to see. It is your preconceptions that are preventing you from seeing.

If you WISH to be left behind, God will allow it. But WHY? WHY lose your head, when it is NOT His will? How much better to swallow your pride and read and believe Luke 21:36?

You should know, if you are left behind, you WILL BE overcome. God has declared it. You will be forced to make very tough decisions. And you will either take the mark or lose your head. All because you really don't believe Luke 21:36.

Make no mistake here, the church will indeed REIGN on earth WITH Christ. But our home and our address in in heaven. And we will spend the 70th week THERE. YOU won't, because you don't believe it. We have to have FAITH to get anything from heaven.

Are you a JEW? Is your mother a descendant of Jacob? I don't know, but I would guess you are a GENTILE. That land in Israel was given to the descendants of JACOB, not to Gentiles. Being grafted into that tree gives you eternal life, but it does not make you a Jew, with Jewish DNA. You must learn to find WHO a scripture is pointed to. If you are a Gentile believer, your scriptures are found in the epistles of the New Testament. They are pointed to the Gentile church.

 

[iamlamad]

You pulled that quote from post #60. That's not the post you were arguing against which is post #42. You're not very honest and already pulling a strawman tactic as you're obviously in denial if your first rebuttal already requires dishonestly twisting the things I've written.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.​

What part of "day of the Lord" do you not understand? When does the day of the Lord happen? It does not happen 1000 years before the tribulation. It does not happen 1000 years after the tribulation. The day of the Lord comes at a time of the tribulation.

What part of "And they shall not escape" do you not understand? What part of not making the rapture and being left behind do you not understand? This parallels Luke's prophecy in Luke 21:34-36. You missed the first day of the Lord at the rapture, you will now have to endure 7 years of tribulation until Christ comes again at the end, but you will not see it as most will die near the end, Luke 17:22. People left behind will be trapped on earth, early on you will seek death wanting to die from all the chaos and destruction but you will not be allowed to die until the appropriate time, Revelation 9:6. You will be handed over to the antichrist - Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-7 for 42 months - either take the mark or be beheaded, Revelation 20:4.

Now what part of and "they shall not escape" do you still not understand? It's your choice, Revelation 13:10.

Luke 21:34-36
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”​

Luke 17:22 The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.​

Revelation 9:6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
​

Did you actually needed Paul to write the words great tribulation in 1 Thess 5:1-3 to know he was talking about "they and them" having to endure the tribulation?



And you need to read more carefully as I've already covered "they and them" in post #42. See the big bolded red words in the quote below? Do I need to made them even bigger, bolder and redder?



If you don't like my new attitude, be more honest next time.

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Wow! This was a very good post. I wished I could write like this!

 

[keras]

The church will never be called the Israelites. When Christ returns as the good shepherd to gathers all His elects like a mother hen longing to gather her chicks under her wings, Matthew 23:37, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27 there will be no more separation between Israel and the church. When the church returns to earth for the millennium, the only way we'll all be called Israelites is if everyone on earth during the millennium lives only in Israel. It'll be a pretty tight squeeze even with Israel's newly expanded bounder. It just won't work.

This statement contradicts plain scripture: Romans 9:6-8.. it is thru the line of Isaac's descendants that you [Christians] will be called....
Re the area of the Holy Land: Genesis 15:18....all the Land from the Nile to the Euphrates..... Isaiah 26:15, Micah 7:11

 

[keras]

No, Jesus will spend the ENTIRE 70th week IN HEAVEN. I will be there with Him, in my resurrection body - along with all who are expecting His pretrib coming. You, on the other hand, will be left behind, because you will not be expecting Him or watching for Him. Just because you can't see it or believe it does not mean millions of others cannot see it or believe it. It is there, written for all to see. It is your preconceptions that are preventing you from seeing.

Right Jesus will still be in heaven during the 70th week. He Returns at the end of those last seven years.
But where exactly do you get the idea that you will be there too? Please give us a verse that says that.
I believe what the prophets actually say, that is: the Lord's people will be gathered into all of the Holy Land soon after the Lord's Day of wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 66:15-21, Revelation 7:9 BTW, do not say Rev 7:9 is in heaven, because Rev 1-8 is undeniably on earth and John does not even hint of a change of location.

 

[Hazrus]

My current thoughts are:
Rapture: none really? All will be judged at the last day in my opinion (how's that for a 4th option!!!)
Millennium: amillennial